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I started off 30k by using 40k models - a Mate had boguth imself Betrayal, I wanted to be sure I enjoyed Horus Heresy before dumping all my money into it.
So far I only have betrayal (with some bits coming from the interwebs such as Volkites and headhunter bitz!!) - my mate and I still use some 40k stuff while we play, mostly while we decide what we want by giving it a go in the game first.

That being said, if I went to my local hobby shop and the person I was playing was iffy with me using 40k models and 30k, I guess I'd understand - I also wouldn't bother playing them again though.

 Orock wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Wow alot of elitism coming from what amounts to 40k refugees. I hope for all the players who cry about non resin marines invading muh balanced muhreen circle jerk, they add eldar to your game. Or better yet, early 30k tau.

How's that axe grinding going? It seemed a little dull before.

Good, good.

Turned away many unwashed plastic using plebeians recently? 30k dosen't need that kind of riff-raff polluting the gentlemens past time.

Why yes. One man even had the gall to bring in a mars pattern Rhino into one of my games at the estate. After spitting out my wine in shock I had him removed from the premises by my servants for daring to sully our exquisitely made table and armies with his subpar models.

You might as well just buy a new axe Orock, you've ground this current one down to the haft.

Double headed. You can use it for multiple things, like space marines in 40k and 30k. Unless you get snooty players who think their too good for 40k marines with the same weapons. Those kind tell you your axe is no good.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Tank_Dweller wrote:
Is BaC even a real issue I feel people here are blowing it out of proportion. I still prefer the look of the FW mk iv's but I definitely prefer working with the plastic ones but as far as gaming terms has anyone really made an issue out of this?

BaC minis are excellent. I don't understand the hate of BaC.

Because it allowed the unwashed poor 40k masses to afford the game obviously.

i dont mind people having one set good deal good models. But when people want to expand they buy three boc and paint them the exact same. Maze well just cast them in pure green or red and be done with it. There is a ooint where a starter set becomes just being lazy and cheap. It is like going to mcdonalds on dollar day and your friend saying i brought a sandwitch because I do not believe in givning em money.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Tank_Dweller wrote:
Is BaC even a real issue I feel people here are blowing it out of proportion. I still prefer the look of the FW mk iv's but I definitely prefer working with the plastic ones but as far as gaming terms has anyone really made an issue out of this?

BaC minis are excellent. I don't understand the hate of BaC.

Because it allowed the unwashed poor 40k masses to afford the game obviously.

i dont mind people having one set good deal good models. But when people want to expand they buy three boc and paint them the exact same. Maze well just cast them in pure green or red and be done with it. There is a ooint where a starter set becomes just being lazy and cheap. It is like going to mcdonalds on dollar day and your friend saying i brought a sandwitch because I do not believe in givning em money.

So youd prefer I had 30 Tactical marines from B@C then got my next 30 in different mark armour from Forgeworld?
What about when I wanna make that Terminator squad a 10 man? Gotta have 5 of each?
It's not like your sandwich anology, it is like going to Maccas and only ordering off the loose change menu because you haven't got loads for a proper Big Mac.

You know, I see a lot of people throwing a piss fit and calling the people who prefer to play/only play against full '30k' armies snooty and snobish. Why?
It isn't because they think they're better than you, It's not even because "You must buy ForgeWorld, or else you're a low class heathen".

It's not about the money you spent, the depth of your pocketbook vs theirs, It's about the Setting and the immersion of the game, and you know what? Someone playing 30k has as much right to say they wont play against 40k Chapter X, as anyone playing 40k would have to Say no to an Eldar army made up of Fantasy Elves because that player wants to play AoS (or fantasy game of choice) Elves, and Eldar.

The people who play the game for the look and feel and the story, and prefer it to be authentic have every bit of right to say no to you when it ruins the aspect of fun that they get when playing the game. But you -dont- have the right to EXPECT to be accepted into that circle of gaming if you're not willing to put forth adequate effort.

You wanna show up with MK VII and VIII Marines, fine. but you better shave off every last aquilla on em unless you're playing Emperors Children. You wanna show up with Plastic Mars Pattern vehicles, fine. but they better be painted to match your legion, or you had better have atleast sprung for some decals or an upgrade pack and not to show that you spent money, but to show you give half a feth about the game your playing.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You know, I see a lot of people throwing a piss fit and calling the people who prefer to play/only play against full '30k' armies snooty and snobish. Why?
It isn't because they think they're better than you, It's not even because "You must buy ForgeWorld, or else you're a low class heathen".

It's not about the money you spent, the depth of your pocketbook vs theirs, It's about the Setting and the immersion of the game, and you know what? Someone playing 30k has as much right to say they wont play against 40k Chapter X, as anyone playing 40k would have to Say no to an Eldar army made up of Fantasy Elves because that player wants to play AoS (or fantasy game of choice) Elves, and Eldar.

The people who play the game for the look and feel and the story, and prefer it to be authentic have every bit of right to say no to you when it ruins the aspect of fun that they get when playing the game. But you -dont- have the right to EXPECT to be accepted into that circle of gaming if you're not willing to put forth adequate effort.

You wanna show up with MK VII and VIII Marines, fine. but you better shave off every last aquilla on em unless you're playing Emperors Children. You wanna show up with Plastic Mars Pattern vehicles, fine. but they better be painted to match your legion, or you had better have atleast sprung for some decals or an upgrade pack and not to show that you spent money, but to show you give half a feth about the game your playing.

Except you aren't just seeing people complaining about people using Mk VII or VIII armor in this thread, you are seeing them complain about people using MK IV Armor, you know the predominant armor of the Heresy. And they are complaining about them because most of the Mk IV being seen these days is from BaC. And they use stupid justifications like "Everyone just paints them the same." or "they have worse poses than the FW models." along with further generalizations that people aren't using the upgrade sets, or aren't adding FW models later on. Which they know and I know the argument is bull crap. Will alot of people do that? Sure, all of them? Certainly not.

If your immersion in a table top game about moving your little plastic soldiers is so easily shattered by another person using little plastic soldiers that are slightly off, then perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game. Its not about just about adequate effort, its about adequate funding, not everyone can afford all the "effort' people put into clicking "add to cart". Not everyone can afford to put all the time into painting or customizing models like other people can. Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares? All I want is them to have it in the colors of their Legion. If they want to use Mk VII armor with the aquila on it, what ever. I'd just be happy to have another person to play a game with.

All I know is my immersion doesn't get shattered that easily in a game where the game itself is the least immersing thing about the setting. Use your imaginations for Christ's sake, that's half the game. Maybe its not actually Mk VII armor but some test bed created by the order of Who Gives A Feth, and this Company lead by Praetor Neckbeardicus is testing it out or something. Use your head, come up with your own reasons and have fun playing a game with each other. Or politely decline, you dont need to make a big deal about it. "I'm sorry but it doesn't fit my views of the game." Rather than "You aren't putting MY views on what effort is for showing you care about the game." Who knows, maybe if you play with that guy using Praetor Neckbeardicus and his "totally not Mk VII" Prototypes, you might spark a flame that causes him to buy the FW Special Units or some "insert MK of Armor here" dudes.

EDIT: And for the people that get their offers to play turned down for various reasons, there's no need to cause a massive huff about it. Both of you can just move on and find other opponents.

In my experience people who use Mk. 7 power armor at first eventually replaces them with older marks when they get the money. So, I partially agree with Victor.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You know, I see a lot of people throwing a piss fit and calling the people who prefer to play/only play against full '30k' armies snooty and snobish. Why?
It isn't because they think they're better than you, It's not even because "You must buy ForgeWorld, or else you're a low class heathen".

It's not about the money you spent, the depth of your pocketbook vs theirs, It's about the Setting and the immersion of the game, and you know what? Someone playing 30k has as much right to say they wont play against 40k Chapter X, as anyone playing 40k would have to Say no to an Eldar army made up of Fantasy Elves because that player wants to play AoS (or fantasy game of choice) Elves, and Eldar.

The people who play the game for the look and feel and the story, and prefer it to be authentic have every bit of right to say no to you when it ruins the aspect of fun that they get when playing the game. But you -dont- have the right to EXPECT to be accepted into that circle of gaming if you're not willing to put forth adequate effort.

You wanna show up with MK VII and VIII Marines, fine. but you better shave off every last aquilla on em unless you're playing Emperors Children. You wanna show up with Plastic Mars Pattern vehicles, fine. but they better be painted to match your legion, or you had better have atleast sprung for some decals or an upgrade pack and not to show that you spent money, but to show you give half a feth about the game your playing.

Except you aren't just seeing people complaining about people using Mk VII or VIII armor in this thread, you are seeing them complain about people using MK IV Armor, you know the predominant armor of the Heresy. And they are complaining about them because most of the Mk IV being seen these days is from BaC. And they use stupid justifications like "Everyone just paints them the same." or "they have worse poses than the FW models." along with further generalizations that people aren't using the upgrade sets, or aren't adding FW models later on. Which they know and I know the argument is bull crap. Will alot of people do that? Sure, all of them? Certainly not.

If your immersion in a table top game about moving your little plastic soldiers is so easily shattered by another person using little plastic soldiers that are slightly off, then perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game. Its not about just about adequate effort, its about adequate funding, not everyone can afford all the "effort' people put into clicking "add to cart". Not everyone can afford to put all the time into painting or customizing models like other people can. Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares? All I want is them to have it in the colors of their Legion. If they want to use Mk VII armor with the aquila on it, what ever. I'd just be happy to have another person to play a game with.

All I know is my immersion doesn't get shattered that easily in a game where the game itself is the least immersing thing about the setting. Use your imaginations for Christ's sake, that's half the game. Maybe its not actually Mk VII armor but some test bed created by the order of Who Gives A Feth, and this Company lead by Praetor Neckbeardicus is testing it out or something. Use your head, come up with your own reasons and have fun playing a game with each other. Or politely decline, you dont need to make a big deal about it. "I'm sorry but it doesn't fit my views of the game." Rather than "You aren't putting MY views on what effort is for showing you care about the game." Who knows, maybe if you play with that guy using Praetor Neckbeardicus and his "totally not Mk VII" Prototypes, you might spark a flame that causes him to buy the FW Special Units or some "insert MK of Armor here" dudes.

EDIT: And for the people that get their offers to play turned down for various reasons, there's no need to cause a massive huff about it. Both of you can just move on and find other opponents.

First off, I've seen exactly two people complain about the Calth Marines, and you know what fine, let them do so imo. I own 2 Calth boxes myself, and I did so because I needed the bodies for a large campaign. But they still look like crap to me compared to the ForgeWorld Mk iv armor, not because of Resin vs plastic, but because Citadel went with the standard dumpy squat marine pose for -ALL- of them, no running legs no based for fire legs, they're all the same two dumpy poses, and in this Citadel screwed up.

Will I use them? Yes I will, certainly. But I'll make sure they are used for proper squads. Assault, destroyer, and some veterans. But do people have the right to complain because they look like someone used the photoshop clone tool on 3 guys 100 times? Sure that's their prerogative, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I highly doubt they'll refuse you play over it ever.

As for immersion, again that's a personal thing it can be different for anyone and everyone. Take video games for example, people get their immersion broken for small things in those all the time and it can Kill a games ratings in a lightspeed second, but people don't get told "get over it", entertainment in all is about escapism of some form. Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room, my immersion is what it is and that's not going to change and it doesn't make me a bad person, an elitist person, or mean I should "stop playing the game". All I ask is that people put in effort to represent their army. I say the exact same thing about 40k too so it's not "30k snobbery". It is not too much to ask in a game based around building and painting miniatures that some care and effort be put into that force.

If you can't paint well? At least you tried, and it's still better than grey plastic/resin.

Can't convert very well? Save up some money and get a GW or ForgeWorld character conversion pack. They aren't expensive.

Can't afford the high end costs of ForgeWorld? Think outside the box, as I said in my previous post. Mars Pattern Rhino hulls were around in 30k in a large amount. The Baal preditor Makes a perfect preditor Infernus. Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

And don't give me a "don't have time" Excuse, I know people with 2 jobs plus kids that manage to get in a couple hours of hobby time in a week, and are usually extremely proud when they do finish a project.

Can't put in time and won't put in time are very different things. And more often than not in this situation it's "won't". Because the people who truly want to will in some form.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

First off, I've seen exactly two people complain about the Calth Marines, and you know what fine, let them do so imo. I own 2 Calth boxes myself, and I did so because I needed the bodies for a large campaign. But they still look like crap to me compared to the ForgeWorld Mk iv armor, not because of Resin vs plastic, but because Citadel went with the standard dumpy squat marine pose for -ALL- of them, no running legs no based for fire legs, they're all the same two dumpy poses, and in this Citadel screwed up.

Will I use them? Yes I will, certainly. But I'll make sure they are used for proper squads. Assault, destroyer, and some veterans. But do people have the right to complain because they look like someone used the photoshop clone tool on 3 guys 100 times? Sure that's their prerogative, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I highly doubt they'll refuse you play over it ever.

As for immersion, again that's a personal thing it can be different for anyone and everyone. Take video games for example, people get their immersion broken for small things in those all the time and it can Kill a games ratings in a lightspeed second, but people don't get told "get over it", entertainment in all is about escapism of some form. Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room, my immersion is what it is and that's not going to change and it doesn't make me a bad person, an elitist person, or mean I should "stop playing the game". All I ask is that people put in effort to represent their army. I say the exact same thing about 40k too so it's not "30k snobbery". It is not too much to ask in a game based around building and painting miniatures that some care and effort be put into that force.

If you can't paint well? At least you tried, and it's still better than grey plastic/resin.

Can't convert very well? Save up some money and get a GW or ForgeWorld character conversion pack. They aren't expensive.

Can't afford the high end costs of ForgeWorld? Think outside the box, as I said in my previous post. Mars Pattern Rhino hulls were around in 30k in a large amount. The Baal preditor Makes a perfect preditor Infernus. Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

And don't give me a "don't have time" Excuse, I know people with 2 jobs plus kids that manage to get in a couple hours of hobby time in a week, and are usually extremely proud when they do finish a project.

Can't put in time and won't put in time are very different things. And more often than not in this situation it's "won't". Because the people who truly want to will in some form.

I guess you dont actually pay attention to video games and people's complaints because people tell other people all the time to get over it, it happens all the time. Video game immersion also alot easier to get into than a game where the sole purpose is "move dude roll dice". 30k is hardly a historical game, so the comparison there is a weak one, its a 40k Spin off with absolutely nothing telling you you cant use X Marine in X Game because they arent the right Mark of Armor. You know why? Because they don't care as long as they sell something. Using Mk VII Armor and putting the time into painting them into a 30k Legion is, whether you like it or not, filling your requirement of them putting effort into their army. If you are just gonna fight them over the fact that the armor doesnt fit your idea that the game is purely a historical game, that's a bit snobbish.

Maybe for you any paint is better than no paint, but in this very thread its been argued that any paint job is not better than none, as people are tired of seeing the models painted exactly the same "Green and Red".

Again your idea of effort beyond painting and conversion is to click "Add to Cart".

Congradulations to those people with kids and jobs and time to paint, I didnt say that they would never get the time to do these things, but some people, have other hobbies as well, so by default would not have the time to put in the same level of effort as you. Infact if you would use some reading comprehension I never said they would never have the time to do that, I said

Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

First off, I've seen exactly two people complain about the Calth Marines, and you know what fine, let them do so imo. I own 2 Calth boxes myself, and I did so because I needed the bodies for a large campaign. But they still look like crap to me compared to the ForgeWorld Mk iv armor, not because of Resin vs plastic, but because Citadel went with the standard dumpy squat marine pose for -ALL- of them, no running legs no based for fire legs, they're all the same two dumpy poses, and in this Citadel screwed up.

Will I use them? Yes I will, certainly. But I'll make sure they are used for proper squads. Assault, destroyer, and some veterans. But do people have the right to complain because they look like someone used the photoshop clone tool on 3 guys 100 times? Sure that's their prerogative, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I highly doubt they'll refuse you play over it ever.

As for immersion, again that's a personal thing it can be different for anyone and everyone. Take video games for example, people get their immersion broken for small things in those all the time and it can Kill a games ratings in a lightspeed second, but people don't get told "get over it", entertainment in all is about escapism of some form. Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room, my immersion is what it is and that's not going to change and it doesn't make me a bad person, an elitist person, or mean I should "stop playing the game". All I ask is that people put in effort to represent their army. I say the exact same thing about 40k too so it's not "30k snobbery". It is not too much to ask in a game based around building and painting miniatures that some care and effort be put into that force.

If you can't paint well? At least you tried, and it's still better than grey plastic/resin.

Can't convert very well? Save up some money and get a GW or ForgeWorld character conversion pack. They aren't expensive.

Can't afford the high end costs of ForgeWorld? Think outside the box, as I said in my previous post. Mars Pattern Rhino hulls were around in 30k in a large amount. The Baal preditor Makes a perfect preditor Infernus. Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

And don't give me a "don't have time" Excuse, I know people with 2 jobs plus kids that manage to get in a couple hours of hobby time in a week, and are usually extremely proud when they do finish a project.

Can't put in time and won't put in time are very different things. And more often than not in this situation it's "won't". Because the people who truly want to will in some form.

I guess you dont actually pay attention to video games and people's complaints because people tell other people all the time to get over it, it happens all the time. Video game immersion also alot easier to get into than a game where the sole purpose is "move dude roll dice". 30k is hardly a historical game, so the comparison there is a weak one, its a 40k Spin off with absolutely nothing telling you you cant use X Marine in X Game because they arent the right Mark of Armor. You know why? Because they don't care as long as they sell something. Using Mk VII Armor and putting the time into painting them into a 30k Legion is, whether you like it or not, filling your requirement of them putting effort into their army. If you are just gonna fight them over the fact that the armor doesnt fit your idea that the game is purely a historical game, that's a bit snobbish.

Maybe for you any paint is better than no paint, but in this very thread its been argued that any paint job is not better than none, as people are tired of seeing the models painted exactly the same "Green and Red".

Again your idea of effort beyond painting and conversion is to click "Add to Cart".

Congradulations to those people with kids and jobs and time to paint, I didnt say that they would never get the time to do these things, but some people, have other hobbies as well, so by default would not have the time to put in the same level of effort as you. Infact if you would use some reading comprehension I never said they would never have the time to do that, I said

Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares?

Maybe to you the only thing that matters is that they are A) Plastic models and B) painted but to others, like me, getting the armor mark accurate to the lore of the setting is important. Why is that so unimportant to you? Why are the feelings of one person inherently superior to another?

Why does it matter so much?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why does it matter so much?

Because to some people getting the feel of the setting right is a huge part of the appeal of playing 30k. I mean, if we're just going to ignore the lore what's the point? Horus Heresy is still a terrible wargame rules wise.

Its a big Meh for me

if looks great then awesome. im sure you can make a very good m6 army for raven guard or what not with no problems.

Mk7 looks out of place Imho

mix mk5 heresy could be very cool.

But if its just a bunch of dudes clearly made for 40k then i lose my hobby boner since it just doesn't match the setting.
(just show me the creativity and enthusiasm and effort for the setting and i have no problem)
play wise i dont care as long as its WYSIWYG

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

First off, I've seen exactly two people complain about the Calth Marines, and you know what fine, let them do so imo. I own 2 Calth boxes myself, and I did so because I needed the bodies for a large campaign. But they still look like crap to me compared to the ForgeWorld Mk iv armor, not because of Resin vs plastic, but because Citadel went with the standard dumpy squat marine pose for -ALL- of them, no running legs no based for fire legs, they're all the same two dumpy poses, and in this Citadel screwed up.

Will I use them? Yes I will, certainly. But I'll make sure they are used for proper squads. Assault, destroyer, and some veterans. But do people have the right to complain because they look like someone used the photoshop clone tool on 3 guys 100 times? Sure that's their prerogative, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I highly doubt they'll refuse you play over it ever.

As for immersion, again that's a personal thing it can be different for anyone and everyone. Take video games for example, people get their immersion broken for small things in those all the time and it can Kill a games ratings in a lightspeed second, but people don't get told "get over it", entertainment in all is about escapism of some form. Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room, my immersion is what it is and that's not going to change and it doesn't make me a bad person, an elitist person, or mean I should "stop playing the game". All I ask is that people put in effort to represent their army. I say the exact same thing about 40k too so it's not "30k snobbery". It is not too much to ask in a game based around building and painting miniatures that some care and effort be put into that force.

If you can't paint well? At least you tried, and it's still better than grey plastic/resin.

Can't convert very well? Save up some money and get a GW or ForgeWorld character conversion pack. They aren't expensive.

Can't afford the high end costs of ForgeWorld? Think outside the box, as I said in my previous post. Mars Pattern Rhino hulls were around in 30k in a large amount. The Baal preditor Makes a perfect preditor Infernus. Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

And don't give me a "don't have time" Excuse, I know people with 2 jobs plus kids that manage to get in a couple hours of hobby time in a week, and are usually extremely proud when they do finish a project.

Can't put in time and won't put in time are very different things. And more often than not in this situation it's "won't". Because the people who truly want to will in some form.

I guess you dont actually pay attention to video games and people's complaints because people tell other people all the time to get over it, it happens all the time. Video game immersion also alot easier to get into than a game where the sole purpose is "move dude roll dice". 30k is hardly a historical game, so the comparison there is a weak one, its a 40k Spin off with absolutely nothing telling you you cant use X Marine in X Game because they arent the right Mark of Armor. You know why? Because they don't care as long as they sell something. Using Mk VII Armor and putting the time into painting them into a 30k Legion is, whether you like it or not, filling your requirement of them putting effort into their army. If you are just gonna fight them over the fact that the armor doesnt fit your idea that the game is purely a historical game, that's a bit snobbish.

Maybe for you any paint is better than no paint, but in this very thread its been argued that any paint job is not better than none, as people are tired of seeing the models painted exactly the same "Green and Red".

Again your idea of effort beyond painting and conversion is to click "Add to Cart".

Congradulations to those people with kids and jobs and time to paint, I didnt say that they would never get the time to do these things, but some people, have other hobbies as well, so by default would not have the time to put in the same level of effort as you. Infact if you would use some reading comprehension I never said they would never have the time to do that, I said

Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares?

Maybe to you the only thing that matters is that they are A) Plastic models and B) painted but to others, like me, getting the armor mark accurate to the lore of the setting is important. Why is that so unimportant to you? Why are the feelings of one person inherently superior to another?

Because I can use my imagination and creativity to help a person come up with a reason they can have Mk VII or not!Mk VII. Like I said it could just be an advanced Legion Prototype. Or Dorn sent a strike for of Marines to test the Mk VII.

Just to clarify, I'm not advocating the exclusion of people using Mk. 7 tacticals. I've played with someone fielding them and it was a fun game regardless. I'm just voicing my reasons why I don't like the idea of Mk. 7 being used on a permenant basis and why I feel it is important to use the lore accurate armor marks.

And I don't think letting someone use Mk VII will lead to them not buying older marks down the road. Some people want to try things before the buy wholesale into it. Especially after how many people have been skewed by these latest editions of the game

And to that I agree wholeheartedly. I believe people should be able to "try before they buy" especially with a game as butt-expensive as 30k.

And, I may have failed to get its across, but it does feel like the people with mostly FW armies believe they are entitled to something because of the ammount money they spend when people say some thing like "But you -dont- have the right to EXPECT to be accepted". They may not have the "right" to "expect" to be accepted, but they do have the "right" to play the game, someone out there even in those gaming groups is likely to decide that the other person should be able to play games while they are building an army.

Just like you have the "right" to not play the game with them, but you don't have the right to dictate to them how they should spend their money or their time. Nor does anyone have the right to dictate what another person does with their models.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room

This is a terrible analogy. Future models in a historical game are going to obviously stand out and almost certainly won't have the correct weapons and equipment to be WYSIWYG. Different space marine armor designs, on the other hand, don't stand out anywhere near as much. Even dedicated 40k fans won't all know the difference between 30k and 40k power armor.

Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

And now you're getting into "my aesthetic choices are superior to yours", not "put some effort into your army". What is wrong with a painted all-plastic Rhino? Why does it need extra detail parts? What if I want my 30k marines to have a simpler look without all the extra detail?

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

Except all you've done here is reduce the amount of money from "massive" to "I think this is reasonable". You're still judging people by how much extra stuff they've bought to add to their models.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Do you have any evidence of Mk. 7 being deployed before the Battle of Terra?

No. But more importantly, the only evidence that it wasn't is from a source that Forge World have repeatedly ignored and contradicted - mark 2 and 3 having fixed helmets, mark 6 being introduced as the Heretics entered the Solar System, and different marks being cross-compatible (it was originally only marks 6 and 7). The pre-production testing of mark 6 at Isstvan by the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion is enough of a precedent for me to allow the presence of mark 7 suits in a Heresy army without getting hot under the collar about it.

I'd certainly prefer it if they didn't - in general I prefer to play using and against fully-painted armies appropriate to the setting, with the correct gear, but if my fellow player isn't obnoxious, then it doesn't really matter.

If multi-meltas and man-portable plasma cannons are allowed, then why not?

If it hasn't been directly contradicted then it still stands as being canon, no?

For the moment, yes. But what I mean is, I'm not going to waste my time getting bothered by the appearance of some mark 7 suits when the background will no doubt change anyway. It's already changed almost beyond recognition from what I remember in 1st edition Space Marine, way back in 1991 (which in itself was somewhat different to what appeared in the first Realm of Chaos book ...)

As far as vehicles go, feel free to use plastic Rhinos, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts (and perhaps Land Speeders too); they're all canonically present during the Heresy. if someone doesn't like seeing a Rhino with square side hatches in a Heresy army, then they're ill-informed and should be shunned.

Also, while looking at my copy of Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, there's an Imperial Fist in what appears to be mark 7 armour, and a couple of Luna Wolves (one in white, one in green) with mark 7 helmets. Looks like it's been OK for well over a decade now.

Mark 7-esque helmets were in some use. It's mentioned as it's own special pattern in one of the FW HH books. And Imperial Fists did get Mk. 7 during the Battle of Terra. So it's only "okay" if you play Battle of Terra/Scouring scenarios.

Also, it's mentioned that the curreny day pattern of Land Speeder is post heresy. But with Land Speeders it seems pattern can mean anything as a Land Speeder with just a heavy bolter and a Land Speeder with a Heavy Bolter and Missile Launchers are distinct patterns. So... who knows?

Using 40K marks of armour, that's fine.

Using 40K rules/codex/expansions, no way in hell.

HandofMars wrote:
Using 40K marks of armour, that's fine.

Using 40K rules/codex/expansions, no way in hell.

Something kinda funny. My friend was tired of hearing of another "Friend" saying how superior 30k is to 40k and how 40k & 30k are meant to be comingled.
So what does my friend do? Plays iron hands legion, but with the clan raukann rules to shut him up. He got the ok by the opponent & the orginizer.
He kicks his ass. like, totally destroys his army. Than my "Friend" says how thats not how its really supposed to be played and that is OP.
It still hasnt got him to shut up.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Using 40K marks of armour, that's fine.

Using 40K rules/codex/expansions, no way in hell.

Something kinda funny. My friend was tired of hearing of another "Friend" saying how superior 30k is to 40k and how 40k & 30k are meant to be comingled.
So what does my friend do? Plays iron hands legion, but with the clan raukann rules to shut him up. He got the ok by the opponent & the orginizer.
He kicks his ass. like, totally destroys his army. Than my "Friend" says how thats not how its really supposed to be played and that is OP.
It still hasnt got him to shut up.

Iron Hand Legion Raukaan? Heresy. I would set them both on fire just for participating.

30K is not superior to 40K at all, there are a couple of very potent support vehicles that are relics by 40K era, but the actual Marines are way cheaper and way better in the 41st millennium.

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:

JamesY wrote:
Has anyone here actually experienced first hand an opponent being condescending or rude over what mark of SM armour their army is comprised of, or whether their models are fw/40k/BaC? Out of interest.

Yes, I play a pre-Isstvan Raven Guard army, and recently had an opponent say I couldn't use my MK IV marines because Raven Guard only wear MK VI. I use a mix of the two. This was after I destroyed his Typhon Siege Tank.

That's not even accurate, guy was just being stupid.

Wait. Wait wait wait.

There are people who look down and criticise those who got into 30k through BaC? Really?

My own local group is thankfully nothing like that. If anything BaC was a godsend. It got a bunch of us, who were disenchanted with 40k back into some of the hobby and made it accessible to far more people. Doubly important for a gaming club where not everyone is necessarily employed for that matter. If anything we've seen more variety in armies through BaC than we ever have in 40k - you'd be amazed what conversions people produce and what bits people will use.

Now back to the topic...

People using 40k Marines in 30k?

Well, that comes down to how much you want your local scene to grow, doesn't it? The more restrictions your group imposes on a hobby the smaller the playerbase will be. It may be all well and fine for a small group where everyone has funds and everyone has amassed huge armies...but more public groups probably should be a bit more flexible.

As others have said - Mk VII did come in during the Heresy - admittedly it was during the Siege itself - which means that certain armies (Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars) would probably be able to get away with having a higher proportion of suits than others. But that doesn't mean only Imperials got it...or only those Legions. The forges went back and forth and it's not inconceivable for the odd Traitor to have Mk VII - and as others have pointed out the current 40k aesthetic for Night Lords, Word Bearers and Iron Warriors in particular isn't that much different from what it was during the Heresy.

I personally see it as follows....

As long as the weapons are represented appropriately and there is no confusion as to what Unit X, Y or Z is? No problem. Bonus points if they're painted in a pre-heresy colour scheme and not the Post-Heresy equivalent, though I doubt anyone would judge an Ultramarine or Blood Angel player too harshly (as the differences are quite minimal).

Double bonus points if the player actually puts a bit of thought in and gives you a suitable bit of army history or background - perhaps they're a smaller force that was deployed to Terra when the Heresy kicked off. Perhaps they temporarily got hold of the forges during the infighting on Mars. Perhaps they were a particularly renowned Chapter or Company that was nominated for experimental armour marks due to their rich combat history.

Personally? I have a bit more of a mix of Marks in my Sons of Barbarus - mostly Mk IV, some Mk III, some Mk II and some mix and match with other patterns. Mind you, I'm also an odd duck as I don't even keep consistent colour schemes for squads - prior to Istvaan that may have been the case but Istvaan III was very much individuals and part-squads being sent down to be purged - makes a bit more sense that what would be left would end up forming combined squads.

It's also worth noting that a lot of the Chapter specific plastics have a Mk VII base but mix rather well with other Marks (I'm looking at you Space Wolves).

I think part of it is how it is portrayed.
These are my guys, mostly plastic, but no one's ever raised any questions over them being heresy marines.



Personally, wouldn't mind. But to each their own.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
There are people who look down and criticise those who got into 30k through BaC? Really?

I like to hope that they are more upset at the people who ONLY use BACs (or Multiple BACs) rather than those who started with a BAC. The only issue I personally have with BaC is that at the time of launch, a lot of people got all gung-ho about MSU lists.

I think for established 30k players, they scrutinize the people coming into it now because they escaped what they fear is now following them. Regardless of the opinions on the type and qualities of players who played before there is the concern that new players will bring a disruptive motivation. Right now much of the balance and percieved sense of balance comes in part from players who are motivated by what models look cool rather than what's the "best." Since BAC there has been an uptick in "what's best?" threads. Many 30k players migrated away from 40k because of certain types of gaming, types of players, and certain marketing habits driving power creep and the neglect of certain factions... This is where the proctectiveness comes from; they don't want to see it again. 30k allowed them to escape 40k without giving up the settings they love.

Personally I just choose not to play with people I don't like, so it doesn't bother me what they do with their time.

When it comes to BAC miniatures, I think it's overall a boon for 30k, but it's mostly that way only so long as GW doesn't decide to produce uniquely plastic models for 30k who's rules are written to sell the model rather than just being representative.

On the whole using "Mk7" armor I don't think it matters that much, but unless effort is put into that army it's just a lazy approach rather than a thematic one. There is a place for Mk7 armor but Mk7 during the Heresy is different than Mk7 afterwards; it doesn't have all the emblems and honors that you'd expect of the 40k marine. If someone insists on an "economical" approach they should easily be expected to put in the extra effort to make up for it. IF they don't want to pay the money and they don't want to put in the effort, why do they want to play a version of the game saturated and known for the quality and effort put into these armies? They have every right to be here but they'd make it hard to be appreciated members of an established community.