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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Did not say they where in anyway. So, Read again. Was a comment about people, not the units.
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One




UK

Apple fox wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Did not say they where in anyway. So, Read again. Was a comment about people, not the units.


Yeah, people who are relatively new to the game and want to use the models they painted and got from Indomitus sure are donkey-caves for running Eradicators and Blade Guard.

This site sometimes I swear.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





generally one thing I've learned about Dakka is the natural reaction to a new unit is to scream it's OP and should be banned rather then discuss how to counter the unit.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Bosskelot wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Did not say they where in anyway. So, Read again. Was a comment about people, not the units.


Yeah, people who are relatively new to the game and want to use the models they painted and got from Indomitus sure are donkey-caves for running Eradicators and Blade Guard.

This site sometimes I swear.


Is this at me, I said i dont think its good for players. But that GW is often oblivious to the environments they create themselves.
   
Made in nl
Brainy Zoanthrope




 Void__Dragon wrote:
Custodes are top five strongest in the entire game, possibly top three.

A single Eradicator unit firing six shots at a Caladius Grav Tank on average is going to do 6-7 wounds. Two will do over 12 on average, with it requiring all three firing on it to have an above 50% chance to pop it in one shooting phase. If you use the Shadowkeeper strat when the Eradicators pop up to destroy your Caladius you can also then pop their strat to lower their guns to strength 7 so they're wounding you on 4s, dropping their average damage to 4-5. If they're in half range then obviously their odds go up, but even then on average they're not popping the grav tank with one double shoot. Two squads double shooting on average will pop it then, but then two squads of Eradicators costs slightly more than your Caladius.

A unit should not be capable of this kind of damage without some serious drawbacks. Two units firing at long range, without applying any of the reroll buffs that they are practically guaranteed to have at that distance, leave this tank on between 1-2 wounds on average. Two eradicator units cost 15 points more than the tank does.

They get a return of ~85% of their point cost in this scenario (again, no half range, no auras, no stratagems. Nothing invested by either player beyond points). The custodes player is very much fethed here. Units like these turn 40k into a coin flip.

Spoiler:

But Shorty, what about the Shadowkeeper strat?
Either bait the shadowkeeper strat by firing one unit at one tank and the other two at another, or focus all three squads and just power through for a "meagre" 63% return. Still well in coin flip levels of efficiency.

Also, since we're now adding 1cp and a cherrypicked chapter to the custodes, what do the marines get?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yes i exagerated a bit in my earlier post, but eradicators are far too efficient at what they do.

They are even stronger with white scars lists since they can advance and fire at no penalty. Or be inside an impulsor and get out after it moves and fire.

The only thing close to the damage output these guys can do from the range they can do it in was guided reapers on a doomed target.

There is litterally no reason they should get to shoot twice per gun at the range they have. The bonus for firing at the same target should have been either +1 to wound or 2d6 damage take the highest at full range instead of half.


There is a reason that a Land Raider armed with 6 multi-meltas isnt a thing, and yet three infantry can pack that much firepower for a cheaper price than said tank armed with bolters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 11:03:59


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).


This sums it up nicely, eradicators are too good but not end of the world, bladeguard are a bit too good but not enough to be massively scared, add some point tweaks and they'd be fine.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sorry but what you say and what you quote don't match.

Even if what Tyel says is true (and I disagree with it, they would be a balance issue even at 55 points. They would be too glassy and too cannony to be balanced), you are still saying that it is not a huge problem that an highly specialized unit is undercosted by 30% in a really popular faction.

Something like that completely warps the meta against the kind of unit that eradicators counter. It is a really really big issue for the game right now. It is cutrrently the top priority balance issue.
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Spoletta wrote:
Sorry but what you say and what you quote don't match.

Even if what Tyel says is true (and I disagree with it, they would be a balance issue even at 55 points. They would be too glassy and too cannony to be balanced), you are still saying that it is not a huge problem that an highly specialized unit is undercosted by 30% in a really popular faction.

Something like that completely warps the meta against the kind of unit that eradicators counter. It is a really really big issue for the game right now. It is cutrrently the top priority balance issue.


I'm curious where your view on them ending up is. If you bin off the shoot twice at 40ppm they will never see play, if you made then tankier at 55pts, how tanky do they need to be to offset the glass cannon point and become justifiable? Shave 6" off the range might do the trick perhaps?
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 15:15:08


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


So you propose them having no special rules or changes at all, you'd accept them at 45 points with a single shot multimelta as a valid competitive option?

Edit bear in mind 55 points gets you an attack bike with 4 t5 wounds and a pair of bolters extra that move significantly faster and they're never seen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 15:58:46


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well we don't know if they would have been taken in 9th as they never had targets in 8th.
They also spent all of 8th hitting on 4's not 3's

These guys were clearly not appropriately pointed for the rules they have been given.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


So you propose them having no special rules or changes at all, you'd accept them at 45 points with a single shot multimelta as a valid competitive option?

Edit bear in mind 55 points gets you an attack bike with 4 t5 wounds and a pair of bolters extra that move significantly faster and they're never seen.
And 35 points for a 1W T4 model with a Multimelta.

Can't protect the Attack Bike in a transport or take cover in a bunch of terrain, I think.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


So you propose them having no special rules or changes at all, you'd accept them at 45 points with a single shot multimelta as a valid competitive option?

Edit bear in mind 55 points gets you an attack bike with 4 t5 wounds and a pair of bolters extra that move significantly faster and they're never seen.
My point is that, across the board, lethality is too high.

Tone down offense everywhere. Marines are especially bad, but they're not the only ones.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Normal Power Swords would be useless on a unit that expensive.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






Units who are that tough with 2D weapons come in at 50 points. The new destroyers, for example, don't have an invuln so are substantially less durable than similar melee units, they are almost a glass cannon.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Eipi10 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine


While the total package is probably better for the Veterans, let's not give false numbers.

Custodes have a ranged attack, +1S and +1T over veterans. They are obviously going to cost more.
Yeah sure, in a direct fight Veterans win on equal points, but that doesn't actual mean anything in mathammer terms. Putting one unit against another one in a direct fight has always been a bad habit of this board, but it actually carries zero value. Units are evaluated at what they are supposed to do. For example, for keeping an objective Custodes are surely better due to that +1T and Obsec. 14 point better? That can be discussed.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker



Canada

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yes i exagerated a bit in my earlier post, but eradicators are far too efficient at what they do.

They are even stronger with white scars lists since they can advance and fire at no penalty. Or be inside an impulsor and get out after it moves and fire.

The only thing close to the damage output these guys can do from the range they can do it in was guided reapers on a doomed target.

There is litterally no reason they should get to shoot twice per gun at the range they have. The bonus for firing at the same target should have been either +1 to wound or 2d6 damage take the highest at full range instead of half.


There is a reason that a Land Raider armed with 6 multi-meltas isnt a thing, and yet three infantry can pack that much firepower for a cheaper price than said tank armed with bolters.


I'm afraid that Impulsors cannot transport Gravis Mk X units and therefore Eradicators cannot embark on them.

More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.



That is a positive point, in the games I’ve played of 9th, sitting back in a gunline feels like a bad idea every time, moving up and fighting feels a lot better. The new missions favoring leaving your deployment zone and new cover rules made my gunline not always the best option and not just sitting in reroll bubbles made my opponents a lot happier. I am starting to work on my lists to adapt to the new captain and lieutenant limit leaks.

I changed my custom marine chapter to use the BA rules so I don’t have the chapter master strat for full rerolls and I stopped using as much shooting and focusing on a lot more units that do both shooting and melee, my regular opponents seem to like my change to BA as they aren’t as broken as some of the other marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/03 13:55:24


Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





TheAvengingKnee wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:


More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.



That is a positive point, in the games I’ve played of 9th, sitting back in a gunline feels like a bad idea every time, moving up and fighting feels a lot better. The new missions favoring leaving your deployment zone and new cover rules made my gunline not always the best option and not just sitting in reroll bubbles made my opponents a lot happier. I am starting to work on my lists to adapt to the new captain and lieutenant limit leaks.

I changed my custom marine chapter to use the BA rules so I don’t have the chapter master strat for full rerolls and I stopped using as much shooting and focusing on a lot more units that do both shooting and melee, my regular opponents seem to like my change to BA as they aren’t as broken as some of the other marines.


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws



Sioux Falls, SD

Spoletta wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:


More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.



That is a positive point, in the games I’ve played of 9th, sitting back in a gunline feels like a bad idea every time, moving up and fighting feels a lot better. The new missions favoring leaving your deployment zone and new cover rules made my gunline not always the best option and not just sitting in reroll bubbles made my opponents a lot happier. I am starting to work on my lists to adapt to the new captain and lieutenant limit leaks.

I changed my custom marine chapter to use the BA rules so I don’t have the chapter master strat for full rerolls and I stopped using as much shooting and focusing on a lot more units that do both shooting and melee, my regular opponents seem to like my change to BA as they aren’t as broken as some of the other marines.


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


Not having the chapter master strat definitely seems to elicit a lot less bitching and whining from my normal opponents, even if I don’t use it they seem to hate that I have it. A few of my normal opponents are a bit toxic.

I am honestly hoping they kill the CM strat with the upcoming codex for marines, the max -1 after all modifiers to hit rolls makes it a lot less needed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 15:43:19


Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.

Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.

Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.


It is said codex creep is like a tree.
   
 
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