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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

In the unlikely event I play 4e again (not because it's bad, just because I'm being realistic about the prospect) I'm going to get rid of the disembark on a penetrating hit rule. I think that mostly solves the problems with transports in 4e. Being entangled after a destroyed result is mostly fine I reckon.

5e just swung it too far the other way, getting rid of all the negative rules AND dropping the price of transports across the board.

   
Made in pt
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think if you're willing to look past 4th's "basic" missions, you'll find a lot of fun.

My buddy and I just played a mission called Sabotage; I got to put out a number of sentries (that follow some pretty cool and unique "Sentry" rules for the mission type) and a single Troops choice. The sentries have their own movement rules, rules for raising the alarm, etc.
Spoiler:

My opponent, on the other hand, was trying to sabotage an objective in the center of the table (where my one Troops was deployed).

The attacker can choose whether or not to try for stealth (unreliable but effective), closing past the sentries all the way to the troops in the center before the alarm is sounded - or they can try the brute force approach and be spotted almost instantly.

There's a few turns of sentries vs. stealthers movement that don't count against the 40k game length, and the 40k game "officially" starts (in terms of the turn count for variable length) when the alarm is sounded.

Missions like this really show the variation between armies - Imperial Guard get a whole platoon as their Troops in addition to the base level of Sentries for the IG. This means (shockingly!) that they're a good force for defending things - just like a modern infantry company, there are a lot of men to do all the lifting, packing, etc. and this includes guarding an objective.

One can easily imagine the platoons rotating out, and the sentries wandering about in their boredom as the Orks (in this case) sneak closer and closer. A sentry is killed in Close Combat and fails to raise the alarm (failing his 4+ to cry out), but his body is seen later by another wandering sentry, and the alarm is raised. Helmets are donned and lasrifles loaded as the Guardsmen scramble to their positions, the Orks bellowing aloud as the thunder of their vehicular support just begins to be heard, engines turning over (off the board!) as they prepare to charge.

Meanwhile, at the company HQ, the Imperial Guard Captain musters his men and also prepares to move forwards to relieve the defending platoon...

well, Skimmers are OP I guess so it sucks
.


I remember sabotage. It was a blast!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!

My favorite edition, the one that sold me for life on the hobby. And I am not sure why people complain about herohammer and vortex grenades and viruses and so on, when the fixes were easy. Limit characters, psykers, spam and cheese, and remove the virus card. As for the vortex grenade, iirc it was 50pts, and could scatter back on one’s own dudes… so risky. But, usually we didn’t use it, either…

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/09 22:32:10


   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 Da Boss wrote:
5e just swung it too far the other way, getting rid of all the negative rules AND dropping the price of transports across the board.
It was a good example of the writers being out of sync. The price drops for transports started in 4th when they made more sense (DA and CSM 4e) and were not readdressed for 5th.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

 Da Boss wrote:
In the unlikely event I play 4e again (not because it's bad, just because I'm being realistic about the prospect) I'm going to get rid of the disembark on a penetrating hit rule. I think that mostly solves the problems with transports in 4e. Being entangled after a destroyed result is mostly fine I reckon.

5e just swung it too far the other way, getting rid of all the negative rules AND dropping the price of transports across the board.


This mirror is my thoughts as well. When I play 4th edition, we do take out the entanglement rules. Solves a lot of problems. I also feel that transports need to be based around 50 point rhino. If it's better than a rhino it should cost more than 50 points. If it's not better than a rhino it can be a little cheaper. However having said that transport should probably be in the range of 35 to 70 points. Any more than that and they almost get too expensive to use or worse have so much war gear on them that they become main battle tanks.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







I think my Chimeras are 100 flat. 85 weapons, HKM and Extra Armor I think gives them 100. The assault platoon runs 103 because they have smoke.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think my Chimeras are 100 flat. 85 weapons, HKM and Extra Armor I think gives them 100. The assault platoon runs 103 because they have smoke.
Which weapons do you use, standard Multilaser and HB or some other combo? I remember seeing (dual?) Heavy Flamers occasionally. Am I remembering that right?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think my Chimeras are 100 flat. 85 weapons, HKM and Extra Armor I think gives them 100. The assault platoon runs 103 because they have smoke.


Chimeras were 55 base with a multi-laser and heavy bolter in the 2008 guard book. It was extra armor that was ridiculously overpriced. Should have topped out at 10 pts. But your 100 point Chimera has a lot of extras added to it.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think my Chimeras are 100 flat. 85 weapons, HKM and Extra Armor I think gives them 100. The assault platoon runs 103 because they have smoke.
Which weapons do you use, standard Multilaser and HB or some other combo? I remember seeing (dual?) Heavy Flamers occasionally. Am I remembering that right?


FW had several alternate turrets for it. the standard out of the box was the multi-laser with a hull heavy bolter.


IIRC turret options were
. autocannon
. twin-linked heavy flamer
. twin-linked heavy bolter

I know you also had the option to swap the hull weapon for a heavy flamer or a multi-melta



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Da Boss wrote:
In the unlikely event I play 4e again (not because it's bad, just because I'm being realistic about the prospect) I'm going to get rid of the disembark on a penetrating hit rule. I think that mostly solves the problems with transports in 4e. Being entangled after a destroyed result is mostly fine I reckon.



That's one of my issues with 4th, I played only orks back then and all my transports were paper things that carried melee dudes with very low saves. I vastly prefer 5th edition rules about vehicles.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 aphyon wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think my Chimeras are 100 flat. 85 weapons, HKM and Extra Armor I think gives them 100. The assault platoon runs 103 because they have smoke.
Which weapons do you use, standard Multilaser and HB or some other combo? I remember seeing (dual?) Heavy Flamers occasionally. Am I remembering that right?


FW had several alternate turrets for it. the standard out of the box was the multi-laser with a hull heavy bolter.


IIRC turret options were
. autocannon
. twin-linked heavy flamer
. twin-linked heavy bolter

I know you also had the option to swap the hull weapon for a heavy flamer or a multi-melta


The base Guard book also had a single Heavy Bolter turret option. I only remember this because my Mech Guard Platooon Command Chimeras have them converted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


I'd play 2nd with you, man.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/10 08:59:38


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

 Blackie wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
In the unlikely event I play 4e again (not because it's bad, just because I'm being realistic about the prospect) I'm going to get rid of the disembark on a penetrating hit rule. I think that mostly solves the problems with transports in 4e. Being entangled after a destroyed result is mostly fine I reckon.



That's one of my issues with 4th, I played only orks back then and all my transports were paper things that carried melee dudes with very low saves. I vastly prefer 5th edition rules about vehicles.


Especially given that you used the 4th ed codex halfway through 5th, i own a copy of the dex myself-love that ramshackle table.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 Blackie wrote:
That's one of my issues with 4th, I played only orks back then and all my transports were paper things that carried melee dudes with very low saves. I vastly prefer 5th edition rules about vehicles.
Did you never play the joy that is the five battlewagon line? :p
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Insectum7 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think my Chimeras are 100 flat. 85 weapons, HKM and Extra Armor I think gives them 100. The assault platoon runs 103 because they have smoke.
Which weapons do you use, standard Multilaser and HB or some other combo? I remember seeing (dual?) Heavy Flamers occasionally. Am I remembering that right?


I bring dual HF for the assault platoon and ML/HB for the regular platoons. Same price.

These are 4e prices, worth noting.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

A.T. wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
That's one of my issues with 4th, I played only orks back then and all my transports were paper things that carried melee dudes with very low saves. I vastly prefer 5th edition rules about vehicles.
Did you never play the joy that is the five battlewagon line? :p


I played 3 battlewagons pretty regularly in 5th . Never played any game above the 1500 points format until 7th edition.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







My Ork 4th edition friend uses a BW with 9 meganobs inside.

It's terrifying
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 Alpharius wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Yep Oldhammer is massive on FB - tens of thousands in some of the groups, so I think if anyone interested posted on there they would probably find local players without too much trouble.

 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


Well, was going to say it's a shame I am across the pond!

I've started toying with 2nd ed too, although so far have only got a few books and codecies. I am thinking of maybe Chaos, have just read Talon of Horus (awesome book btw if anyone hasn't read it!) but doing a scouring-era Sons of Horus force. So when they have been well and truly beaten and have their backs to the wall, trying to escape to the EoT, but still have their Legion code/brotherhood fraternity. Maybe against Imperial Guard or Eldar? (Who were great fun in 2nd ed). Would be a nice opportunity to do some conversions on the lovely new Chaos plastics, make them look slightly less chaos-y with a few 30k-era armour mods thrown in.

But need to finish off my Epic 30k/Great Crusade project first!


That sounds awesome - and a lot of fun to build, paint and play!

I think the true kings of 40K 2nd edition were probably Space Wolves, Eldar and Chaos Marines?

But at this point, playing 2nd Edition will be purely for fun, and some of the more game-breaking, fun-sapping combos can be avoided for the sake of a good game? Or at least not show up all the time...

Does anyone know of a good source for 'counts as' Squats - i.e., "Space Dwarfs"?

I just love me some Exo-Armored stunties, for some reason.

Everything else you'd want can be pretty much found in the current GW line, in terms of Chaos, Marines, Orks, Eldar, etc.


I would go with Mantic, they carry miniatures that cover most of the Squat army with the Forge Father range (they are pretty cheap too!)

The only problem I would say is that they look too heavily armoured (if you go for the 'brotherhood' guys - not the ones in dunagarees armed with spanners! ) for the Squat brotherhood statline of 6+ flak armour save. Maybe add a couple of points to them each and make them 4+ (carapace) or 5+ (mesh) equivalents?

Here are a few of the basic guys I painted up years ago, think they are pretty cool minis
Spoiler:


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 12:32:34


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My Ork 4th edition friend uses a BW with 9 meganobs inside.

It's terrifying


It shouldn't be. That vehicle is super easy to crack since it has AV12 in the side and it's open topped. Then D6 movement makes the meganob unit quite easy to handle.

In 5th my competitive list had 3 BWs, Ghaz and nob bikers. All the eggs in the same basket has never been rewarding with orks, since we never had durable stuff. Even the infamous cheesy nob bikers of 5th were not really scary if the ork list didn't have other threats like 3 BWs with permanent 4+ cover save, full of boyz and Ghaz.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Open Topped is a blessing and a curse, so it isn't all bad. It is only AV 12 on the side, meaning maneuver can help protect it.

Meganobs move 2d6 and pick the highest, so they are slower than usual....

... which is why they are in a tank
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 Blackie wrote:
It shouldn't be. That vehicle is super easy to crack since it has AV12 in the side and it's open topped. Then D6 movement makes the meganob unit quite easy to handle.
Something like a one in ten chance of stopping a shielded wagon with a side-on shot from a BS4 missile launcher or lance IIRC. You would be looking to assault into your opponents deployment zone on the second turn.

Effectiveness varied but one of the nice things about the 4e ork codex was that you had plenty of options for viable lists, your opponent couldn't second guess the wagon rush because on any given day they might be met with kanz, or hordes, or bikes, or a big gunline, and so on.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





4th Ed. went too far in punishing vehicles and 5th swung too far the other way, just like Da Boss said. GW had always been notorious for over correction - wait too long to fix an obvious problem and when they do they throw the baby out with the bath water. What was needed was more fine tuning and balancing with the vehicle damage table, which is what we did while adding another result.

Games Workshop instead added the hull point mechanic, making vehicles get destroyed by an additional method and when that obviously failed they simply turned them into giant rolling meat sacks for simplicity's sake. Some really like this, but I can't fathom why.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 15:07:23


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 jeff white wrote:

My favorite edition, the one that sold me for life on the hobby. And I am not sure why people complain about herohammer and vortex grenades and viruses and so on, when the fixes were easy. Limit characters, psykers, spam and cheese, and remove the virus card. As for the vortex grenade, iirc it was 50pts, and could scatter back on one’s own dudes… so risky. But, usually we didn’t use it, either…


Snap. Add in GW's grand tourney mods and you have a blast, favourite wargame edition of 40k for me.
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

Games Workshop instead added the hull point mechanic, making vehicles get destroyed by an additional method and when that obviously failed they simply turned them into giant rolling meat sacks for simplicity's sake. Some really like this, but I can't fathom why.


Agreed, having a vehicle mechanic in the damage table that made them feel more like vehicles, then stacking a secondary damage mechanic that was way to easy to inflict punished you for taking them (6th/7th ed), then going totally abstract with 8th was a bridge to far.

I think the mix Andy Chambers pulled off for DUST was a good compromise. they still had wounds, but facings mattered for weapon firing arcs, and there was damage reduction all the way up to immunity as the armor class (toughness) went up and the power of the weapon being used went down.

As an example, small arms could hurt things like open topped light walkers or artillery tractors up to armor class 3 but anything that was a proper tank (class 4) or even heavier was immune. If they had done that with 8th ed 40K i think it would have been a better mechanic.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[Jǫtunn]






.

jeff white wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!

My favorite edition, the one that sold me for life on the hobby. And I am not sure why people complain about herohammer and vortex grenades and viruses and so on, when the fixes were easy. Limit characters, psykers, spam and cheese, and remove the virus card. As for the vortex grenade, iirc it was 50pts, and could scatter back on one’s own dudes… so risky. But, usually we didn’t use it, either…


You're...not wrong!

Also, I'm the same as you in that 2nd Edition 40K is what started me on the wargaming path that I've been on every since.

Talk about a Golden Age of GW gaming too - WFB was fun, and my all time favorite GW game(s) came out then too - Space Marine/Titan Legion!

40K 2nd and SM/TL were the most fun I've ever had wargaming too - so yeah, I'm bringing both back!

Platuan4th wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


I'd play 2nd with you, man.


It's a deal!

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Alpharius wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
I'd play 2nd with you, man.

It's a deal!
Likewise!

So what are the chances any of us are in the same area? (San Francisco here)

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
I'd play 2nd with you, man.

It's a deal!
Likewise!

So what are the chances any of us are in the same area? (San Francisco here)


I'm in Tampa.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Platuan4th wrote:

I'm in Tampa.
Well that's only about 4000 kilometers, practically next door! :p

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[Jǫtunn]






.

OK, so far we've got:

San Francisco
Tampa
Boston

We pretty much picked the 3 places farthest away from each other!

   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






Just get Tabletop Simulator, y'all

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/11 19:14:44


I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Rihgu wrote:
Just get Tabletop Simulator, y'all
Weren't there some issues with that? I haven't kept up.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






 Insectum7 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Just get Tabletop Simulator, y'all
Weren't there some issues with that? I haven't kept up.


Not that I've heard of? Technical issues or ethical issues? I've been using it technically fine fairly consistently. Don't know if the company in charge turns out to be neo-nazis or using the service to groom minors, though.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
 
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