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 Kroothawk wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
It's one of the great mysteries of GW now, the way they can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Not a mystery at all: How should the GW decision makers know which rules are good, as they don't have a clue about the products they sell (and can't lower themselves to actually play it)

Which according to some rumor mills holds us in some category that starts at the sidewalk that their shoe walks on.

 BunkerBob wrote:
Has anyone else been making lists with the supposed rule changes in the rumor mill? Sadly I've made about 14 new lists under those proposed limitations. I've done about 15 or so rolls on gets hot for veterans using the rumor of loosing one special heavy weapon and honestly I am not loosing much as everything has been consistent on the rolls. Then the average was instantly skewed due to constant 1's. Such is my luck.

Bulbous veins will erupt across my forehead if GW turns Veterans into BS4 Infantry Squads.

Even by GW's standards, that would be unbelievably, off your rockers level insane. This is way too early to start drawing up lists.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BunkerBob wrote:
Has anyone else been making lists with the supposed rule changes in the rumor mill? Sadly I've made about 14 new lists under those proposed limitations. I've done about 15 or so rolls on gets hot for veterans using the rumor of loosing one special heavy weapon and honestly I am not loosing much as everything has been consistent on the rolls. Then the average was instantly skewed due to constant 1's. Such is my luck.

Bulbous veins will erupt across my forehead if GW turns Veterans into BS4 Infantry Squads.

Even by GW's standards, that would be unbelievably, off your rockers level insane. This is way too early to start drawing up lists.

I wouldn't mind seeing vets at 80 points/squad with only 1 special weapon slot but with one of the 3 combat doctrines included in their cost. Other IG players would have a stroke, but I think it would be good for some fun tactical lists.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 MisterPerkins wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless they decide to give the Hydra interceptor, I don't see what possible appeal it will have. Even to a complete fluff-bunny beer n pretzels pleeb, the unit is literally useless on the tabletop if your opponent isn't bringing air.

I just don't understand the thought process...

I believe it is still pretty useful against skimmers, which are fielded by every Xenos race aside from Nids and they tend to bring FMC's in the HQ slot. Plus, denying them their jink save is pretty handy.

Orks don't usually have skimmers either, but I'd say that the Hydra is still a decent enough gun platform even when used against ground targets. Two TL Autocannons and a Heavy Bolter is pretty good even if you have to snap-fire the AC. Not the most points-efficient way of getting Autocannons with the guard, but still far from literally useless. Two hydras are similar in firepower and cost to one Leman Russ Exterminator and that's not a bad tank at all.

Ah yes, my mistake. I totally spaced out on Orks. Apologies

Vets will probably just go the 2 weapon max model FW has them at.

We knew it was coming guys, lets not act surprised. IG had more special weapons per 10 man squad than their "elite" allies.

I have no idea if they'll make SWS's the default go to or something, but I would imagine they'll still have some major drawbacks.

Also, how on earth are you writing lists already? Were some rules leaked or something?

TBH if Vet squads do go down to 2 special weapons I think it will be a huge nerf to one of the only things IG has left to compete with. My hope is that this doesn't turn into another tyranid release, where they nerf everything that was good, some things that were already bad, and then give us nothing in return.

Yea we have Leman Russes and FW cheese, but that gak only goes so far. Chimera Vets are arguably one of the best, if not THE best unit IG has. And we all know that the Vendetta is getting a price increase.

I'd wager that vets will go down to the "1 special at 5 men, 1 special + 1special or heavy at 10 men" standard.

I doubt we'll ever get plastics other than Cadians and Catachans for years, but, eventually, they'll phase the Catachans out for a different alternative Guard force. Probably Valhallans, but, you know, YEARS down the road.

 ultimentra wrote:
... and FW cheese...

FW cheese? Something you know that the rest of us are missing? Are Leman Russ Annihilators and Conquerors dominating the game somewhere we haven't heard about? Is the Gorgon tearing Taudar armies apart like they were made of paper? Does the sheer power of the Malcador put fear into Triptide players?

FW cheese? I've yet to see any.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
... and FW cheese...

FW cheese? Something you know that the rest of us are missing? Are Leman Russ Annihilators and Conquerors dominating the game somewhere we haven't heard about? Is the Gorgon tearing Taudar armies apart like they were made of paper? Does the sheer power of the Malcador put fear into Triptide players?

FW cheese? I've yet to see any.

Quad launchers are pretty gnarly right now, esp if taken en mass. So are Sabres Defence Platforms, which are waaay underpriced for what you get (id never use a sabre if i could just have a T7 or even a T5 2w heavy weapon team) I think the problem is that guard NEED to have some of these to be truly competitive at the moment. If i recall there was a LVO list that landed high with something like 9 quads? This codex is much needed and Some point balancing will be needed. I don't care much for the idea that i might lose an extra special weapon (darnit! ive already modeled them!) It does make sense that it falls inline with what the rest of the army lists that came out post IG book have with 2. Added special rules for vets would be snazzy, either with free doctrines or cheaper doctrines or the ability to purchase special rules like Tank Hunters or something similar.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing vets at 80 points/squad with only 1 special weapon slot but with one of the 3 combat doctrines included in their cost. Other IG players would have a stroke, but I think it would be good for some fun tactical lists.

Oh dear god no. None of the doctrines are even remotely worth taking without 3x special weapons. Carapace armor and camo cloaks suck when you can just buy a whole new squad for redundancy, and melta bombs are way too expensive if the rest of the squad isn't contributing much. Dropping to two special weapon slots would be a big nerf, dropping to one would be the end of vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Vets will probably just go the 2 weapon max model FW has them at.

Which doesn't work and makes them terrible units with no competitive value. ABG vets with their overpriced initial squad size and two specials are garbage that you only take if you're desperate for scoring units and won't take allies, FW command squads with two specials are garbage you only take to fill the mandatory HQ slot, and Hades drill "vets" are garbage you only take as a prerequisite for the melta drill. The only FW vets that work are the DKoK grenadiers that have AP 3 basic weapons and don't need specials as much, and the Elysian vets/command squads that have 3x/4x specials.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
... and FW cheese...

FW cheese? Something you know that the rest of us are missing? Are Leman Russ Annihilators and Conquerors dominating the game somewhere we haven't heard about? Is the Gorgon tearing Taudar armies apart like they were made of paper? Does the sheer power of the Malcador put fear into Triptide players?

FW cheese? I've yet to see any.

3 Basilisk cannons on heavy artillery carriage= 24 wounds at t7 half with a 5+ save half with a 3+ save= 1 heavy slot=225 points

3 quad guns=12 shots at t5 ap5 small balsts=9 wounds at t7 5+ save and 6 wounds at t7 3+ save=150 points

3 sabers=3 TL LC with interceptor and skyfire=12 wounds at t7 half with a 5+ save half with a 3+ save=5 per platoon=156 points=scoring unit

Weaknesses.

Squishy like normal guardsmen in assaults.

LD7 with the guns being destroyed if they face a break test, easily fixed.

Small and large pie are not TL, easily fixed

Add a lord commissar who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for a 6" LD10 bubble.

Add a CCS who can give orders to the artillery unit because they partially consist of normal guardsmen, add a banner for rerolls within 12".

Add Coteaz who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, and prescience, and a 12" no deep strike bubble or I drop earth shakers on your head.

Add a 2nd inquisitor who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, a 2nd prescience, and servo skulls for 1d6 scatter on all that pie.

Or instead of the inquisitors add 2 rune priests to shut down stars, or add tiggerious/that fw special character that chooses divination powers.

IG FW cheese is every bit as bad as the tau cheese. Judging the cheese factor of FW IG on the weakest units is like judging the cheese factor of TauDar off vespid stingerwings and swooping hawks.

How come there are non what so ever rules leaked from the new codex? Usually there are at least some leaks but as far as I`ve heard there are just something that the doctrines are back and that orders are kept, but nothing on what they will contain. Will orders mainly be as they are and will doctrines be the same as before?

Man, whoever was talking about a hypothetical dual-kit Basilisk cannon "wasting too much plastic" a couple pages back, you crazy. Polystyrene for injection molding is one dollar a pound. ABS is < $1.25. Now, even though Imperial units confuse and infuriate me, I'm pretty sure a pound of plastic makes two entire Leman Russes. Within an order of magnitude of two Leman Russes, at least.

Now, adding extra bits does raise mold complexity, and, therefore, tooling costs, but that's never stopped GW before. In fact, mold complexity is the only somewhat legitimate excuse for their stupid prices.

Given all that and historical record, I'd be extremely surprised if that hydra isn't a dualkit. I'd even hypothesize that the kit isn't a hydra at all, but a "Greek-mythical-critter-pattern indirect support vehicle" that can take several different cannons. Kinda like the modern Russ kits. Or the Hellhound kit.

Now, there's been no rumour of such a kit, but there's been no rumour of what I can only describe as some dimwitted Kommando's attempt to blend his Battlewagon into the ranks of the Guard before that ugly pic either.

 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Vets will probably just go the 2 weapon max model FW has them at.

Which doesn't work and makes them terrible units with no competitive value. ABG vets with their overpriced initial squad size and two specials are garbage that you only take if you're desperate for scoring units and won't take allies, FW command squads with two specials are garbage you only take to fill the mandatory HQ slot, and Hades drill "vets" are garbage you only take as a prerequisite for the melta drill. The only FW vets that work are the DKoK grenadiers that have AP 3 basic weapons and don't need specials as much, and the Elysian vets/command squads that have 3x/4x specials.

Yeah I'm not saying I like it, I'm just saying everyone needs to go ahead and prepare for it, because odds are it will happen. While IG players love their chimera vets, most other players hate them. I wouldn't be surprised to see them get nerfed heavily as an over reaction on GW's part. The vendetta, and maybe even the chimera itself will probably suffer similar nerf beatings as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
... and FW cheese...

FW cheese? Something you know that the rest of us are missing? Are Leman Russ Annihilators and Conquerors dominating the game somewhere we haven't heard about? Is the Gorgon tearing Taudar armies apart like they were made of paper? Does the sheer power of the Malcador put fear into Triptide players?

FW cheese? I've yet to see any.

I rather like their anti-terminator Manticore, But I wouldn't consider it cheese.

 BrookM wrote:
Maybe the new Basilisk will be a Vanaheim pattern:

I don't think GW will revamp original Basilisk with this (which looks better). GW only replaced track bogie assembly unit by removing 'track wheels'. if they wanna re-work the Basilisk.

L.

Add Coteaz who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, and prescience, and a 12" no deep strike bubble or I drop earth shakers on your head.

Earthshakers have a 36" minimum distance. I don't think Coteaz overrides that.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

Add Coteaz who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, and prescience, and a 12" no deep strike bubble or I drop earth shakers on your head.

Earthshakers have a 36" minimum distance. I don't think Coteaz overrides that.

Wasn't that FAQ'd to be ignored / only for indirect fire?

 schadenfreude wrote:

3 Basilisk cannons on heavy artillery carriage= 24 wounds at t7 half with a 5+ save half with a 3+ save= 1 heavy slot=225 points

3 quad guns=12 shots at t5 ap5 small balsts=9 wounds at t7 5+ save and 6 wounds at t7 3+ save=150 points

3 sabers=3 TL LC with interceptor and skyfire=12 wounds at t7 half with a 5+ save half with a 3+ save=5 per platoon=156 points=scoring unit

Doesn't sound like cheese at all, frankly. I'd take TFC's over any of these, really.

 Roy Langa wrote:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

Add Coteaz who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, and prescience, and a 12" no deep strike bubble or I drop earth shakers on your head.

Earthshakers have a 36" minimum distance. I don't think Coteaz overrides that.

Wasn't that FAQ'd to be ignored / only for indirect fire?

I see nothing regarding the Earthshakers in the Faq.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
... and FW cheese...

FW cheese? Something you know that the rest of us are missing? Are Leman Russ Annihilators and Conquerors dominating the game somewhere we haven't heard about? Is the Gorgon tearing Taudar armies apart like they were made of paper? Does the sheer power of the Malcador put fear into Triptide players?

FW cheese? I've yet to see any.

3 Basilisk cannons on heavy artillery carriage= 24 wounds at t7 half with a 5+ save half with a 3+ save= 1 heavy slot=225 points

3 quad guns=12 shots at t5 ap5 small balsts=9 wounds at t7 5+ save and 6 wounds at t7 3+ save=150 points

3 sabers=3 TL LC with interceptor and skyfire=12 wounds at t7 half with a 5+ save half with a 3+ save=5 per platoon=156 points=scoring unit

Weaknesses.

Squishy like normal guardsmen in assaults.

LD7 with the guns being destroyed if they face a break test, easily fixed.

Small and large pie are not TL, easily fixed

Add a lord commissar who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for a 6" LD10 bubble.

Add a CCS who can give orders to the artillery unit because they partially consist of normal guardsmen, add a banner for rerolls within 12".

Add Coteaz who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, and prescience, and a 12" no deep strike bubble or I drop earth shakers on your head.

Add a 2nd inquisitor who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, a 2nd prescience, and servo skulls for 1d6 scatter on all that pie.

Or instead of the inquisitors add 2 rune priests to shut down stars, or add tiggerious/that fw special character that chooses divination powers.

IG FW cheese is every bit as bad as the tau cheese. Judging the cheese factor of FW IG on the weakest units is like judging the cheese factor of TauDar off vespid stingerwings and swooping hawks.

This relies on allies (or multiple allies) to work properly (unlike say, Eldar or Tau which don't need allies to be absurdly strong), and at that point you're sitting there with everything balled up in one tiny area to ensure everything stays within range of Ld bubbles, your opponent has freedom of board movement, and Emperor help you if those support units are removed. This list *really* does not like things like drop pod SM lists and the like, even with Coteaz in there, especially as even a relatively small number of survivors can rampage through those arty units in CC.

We'll see how the new books turns out, it'll be interesting if Orders survive in their current form or if they get notably changed or replaced entirely. That'll also have a big effect on lists like the above.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

 Roy Langa wrote:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

Add Coteaz who becomes T7 after joining the artillery for more LD10, and prescience, and a 12" no deep strike bubble or I drop earth shakers on your head.

Earthshakers have a 36" minimum distance. I don't think Coteaz overrides that.

Wasn't that FAQ'd to be ignored / only for indirect fire?

I see nothing regarding the Earthshakers in the Faq.

Not a FAQ, it's in the BRB Pg. 34, first bullet point. Second sentence, after the "/"

Was a change in 6th, and something a bunch of people never noticed.

 Balance wrote:
For the Ogryns, the fact that apparently there's what appears to be manufactured armor with mounting brackets for tread-links seems a bit silly. Using spare links as 'improvised armor' on tanks is kind of neat, maybe as a shoulder-guard on an Ogryn, but having it as a part of what appears to be manufactured armor seems a bit silly.

Actually it could have been intentional in the design since it would be a good way to add armor that is also flexible so that the stomach is protected without reducing mobility to much. Also they might have just had a large pile of damaged tank treads nearby when they were coming up with the design and just choose the reuse them.

Lucius Sejanus wrote:
Man, whoever was talking about a hypothetical dual-kit Basilisk a couple pages back, you crazy.

I think you might have (misquoted or misinterpreted) me.

It's not a stretch really, GW has done it before.... Loyal Land Raider + Chaos Upgrade Sprue (added to same loyal LR kit) = Chaos Land Raider... $74 versus $77....

Just was saying (one possibility) IF GW wanted to cut production costs/time/etc & increase profits/quick release of new kit (to be even more profitable), a simple sprue for a Hydra option added to an existing kit, with a price raise, would be an easy way to do it... Not out of the realm of possibilities.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
a simple sprue for a Hydra option added to an existing kit, with a price raise, would be an easy way to do it... Not out of the realm of possibilities.

That's exactly what it will be... a simple sprue added to a base Chimera hull

That's basically how IG tanks work. The base hull of either Leman Russ or Chimera + 1 sprue to make the variant you're buying (battle tank, demolisher, manticore/deathstrike, hellhound are all the base hull sprue + 1 other sprue).

The only IG tanks that don't follow that format are the Basi, which comes with a tank accessory sprue + 2 smaller sprues and the Baneblade, which since they repackaged it, comes with several sprues to make either the sword variants or the baneblade variants.

I tend to think the Hydra will be the same old formula of Chimera hull + 1 sprue to make a Hydra and MAYBE another tank if it can fit on the same sprue (highly doubt it'll be the Basi). If it's going to take them 3 sprues to do it (Chimera hull + Hydra sprue + "other tank" sprue) I'm guessing they'll just split them in to different boxes as separate kits.

Unless the Hydra upgrade can't fit on a single sprue anyway, then it becomes more likely that they'll dual kit it with 3 sprues.

One thing that always bugged me about IG was that you had to be within 12" to get orders. But you can buy a fricking radio (vox caster) and you still had to be within 12". Does IG (or GW) not know how radios work?!?!?!? I should be able to put a vox caster in my squad and they should be able to get orders from the other side of the battle field. Or, use even more common sense, and let sergeants give orders. Just silly common sense stuff...

 Davespil wrote:
One thing that always bugged me about IG was that you had to be within 12" to get orders. But you can buy a fricking radio (vox caster) and you still had to be within 12". Does IG (or GW) not know how radios work?!?!?!? I should be able to put a vox caster in my squad and they should be able to get orders from the other side of the battle field. Or, use even more common sense, and let sergeants give orders. Just silly common sense stuff...

agreed, even to take it a step further and create 2 groupings for orders, defensive and offensive orders. Your sergeants can give defensive orders, but the company commander can give offensive orders, something similar to psyker powers in regards to number of orders per turn. Leave the orders for the commander at a 12 inch range, but give all the units a vox upgrade for a few points that extends the range of the orders to a much larger number

 ironicsilence wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
One thing that always bugged me about IG was that you had to be within 12" to get orders. But you can buy a fricking radio (vox caster) and you still had to be within 12". Does IG (or GW) not know how radios work?!?!?!? I should be able to put a vox caster in my squad and they should be able to get orders from the other side of the battle field. Or, use even more common sense, and let sergeants give orders. Just silly common sense stuff...

agreed, even to take it a step further and create 2 groupings for orders, defensive and offensive orders. Your sergeants can give defensive orders, but the company commander can give offensive orders, something similar to psyker powers in regards to number of orders per turn. Leave the orders for the commander at a 12 inch range, but give all the units a vox upgrade for a few points that extends the range of the orders to a much larger number

That would be nice. The vox caster thing was always pretty stupid.

"The commander is 30 ft away yelling orders, we can't hear him, get on the radio and ask him what his orders were... oh wait, he's now 40 ft away, that's too far to give orders... as you were Mr. Radio Operator"

 ironicsilence wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
One thing that always bugged me about IG was that you had to be within 12" to get orders. But you can buy a fricking radio (vox caster) and you still had to be within 12". Does IG (or GW) not know how radios work?!?!?!? I should be able to put a vox caster in my squad and they should be able to get orders from the other side of the battle field. Or, use even more common sense, and let sergeants give orders. Just silly common sense stuff...

agreed, even to take it a step further and create 2 groupings for orders, defensive and offensive orders. Your sergeants can give defensive orders, but the company commander can give offensive orders, something similar to psyker powers in regards to number of orders per turn. Leave the orders for the commander at a 12 inch range, but give all the units a vox upgrade for a few points that extends the range of the orders to a much larger number

I disagree. Commanders should be there to take care of the overall tactics of the fight. But the sergeants and LTs are the one that give specific orders to squads and platoons and this should be reflected in the game play. And if you can be in touch with a space craft you should be in touch with a squad thats 200 feet away.

Also, orders into transports... Why not? The chimera can act as a freaking mobile command vehicle but it doesn't have a radio?