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 agnosto wrote:
Did they every fix the frag/massive frag thing where plague mortars could just shut their opponent down the entire game? I played exactly one game of Deadzone after I bought the kickstarter and my opponent and I looked at each other after 30 minutes, shrugged, and put the game away. It's been on my shelf ever since.

I only played a handful and the extremely rock paper scissors nature of the game had me shelving it (DZ).
Not a fan of suppression either (unless it was toned WAY down). Oh well..

 MLaw wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Did they every fix the frag/massive frag thing where plague mortars could just shut their opponent down the entire game? I played exactly one game of Deadzone after I bought the kickstarter and my opponent and I looked at each other after 30 minutes, shrugged, and put the game away. It's been on my shelf ever since.

I only played a handful and the extremely rock paper scissors nature of the game had me shelving it (DZ).
Not a fan of suppression either (unless it was toned WAY down). Oh well..

The biggest problem was scale, one massive frag covered 1/4 to 1/3 of the board it seemed like, 9 squares, right? "Oh gee, due to terrain, you had to deploy fairly close together and now you'll never move again, yay!"

People were griping about it on the writer's website and he was basically telling everyone he wasn't going to fix it, there was nothing wrong, and they were all stupid. At that point I just thought that well, that kills that game.

 agnosto wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Did they every fix the frag/massive frag thing where plague mortars could just shut their opponent down the entire game? I played exactly one game of Deadzone after I bought the kickstarter and my opponent and I looked at each other after 30 minutes, shrugged, and put the game away. It's been on my shelf ever since.

I only played a handful and the extremely rock paper scissors nature of the game had me shelving it (DZ).
Not a fan of suppression either (unless it was toned WAY down). Oh well..

The biggest problem was scale, one massive frag covered 1/4 to 1/3 of the board it seemed like, 9 squares, right? "Oh gee, due to terrain, you had to deploy fairly close together and now you'll never move again, yay!"

People were griping about it on the writer's website and he was basically telling everyone he wasn't going to fix it, there was nothing wrong, and they were all stupid. At that point I just thought that well, that kills that game.

Yeah that's the other thing that has pushed me away from DZ.. any time I mentioned stuff I wasn't keen on to the community I got a pretty similar response to what you just described. The things I didn't like were all my fault or I just need to play a few dozen more matches or whatever.

The suppression comment was about Warpath Firefight, not Deadzone. Just to clear that up.

 Tyr13 wrote:
The suppression comment was about Warpath Firefight, not Deadzone. Just to clear that up.

Well.. I have played DZ, I have not played Firefight. In Deadzone, I hated suppression. I'm not entirely sure I will feel differently about it because the name of the game is different..

Loved suppression in Deadzone.

A lot of people dislike suppression or pinning in their games. I'm not a fan of "run through bullets with a sword" games anymore, personally.

 judgedoug wrote:
Loved suppression in Deadzone.

A lot of people dislike suppression or pinning in their games. I'm not a fan of "run through bullets with a sword" games anymore, personally.

It's not that I don't think a suppression mechanic isn't usable.. and me disliking suppression doesn't mean I'm a fan of what you're describing.. Mantic's implementation of suppression though is not how I'd prefer to spend my free time. It utterly paralyzes a unit. It's total binary. I've thankfully never been in an actual firefight with guns, but in paintball, video games, movies, etc.. it's always a back and forth. Not, whoever lucks out on going first or lining up the shot first renders the other side helpless. It's more like tug of war. It creates a one-sided scenario and the basic concept of risk vs reward goes out the window because the side getting pounded on has no play.

I've had this discussion about Mantic's suppression here and in their community. This is usually how it starts. A bit of "well I like it" followed by some condescending remark about being a simpleton gamer.. so, I think I'll just move along

Deadzone v2 is completely different, recommend having a look at the new rules, very different game which I've had an active role in helping to develop.

 judgedoug wrote:
Loved suppression in Deadzone.

A lot of people dislike suppression or pinning in their games. I'm not a fan of "run through bullets with a sword" games anymore, personally.

I get that and agree with it but why design a game where you can literally shut large sections of the board down through rules like frag and massive frag?

Get shot, nobody dies but we're all suppressed.
Use activation to stand a couple of people up.
Get shot, everybody goes back down.
Rinse. repeat.

I hated that, it was boring. At least make a mobile firefight possible.

Bolt Action uses cumulative pinning, and aside from a few aspects (transports in particular) it works really well in simulating the effect of fire from multiple angles or over time, the difference between elite and green troops, and the importance of officers.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Deadzone v2 is completely different, recommend having a look at the new rules, very different game which I've had an active role in helping to develop.

That's cool. I haven't looked but unless there's a free version though, that's not happening. I backed the creation of V1 and am not throwing more money down that pit..

In fairness, I am giving the beta for firefight a look.

 agnosto wrote:
Did they every fix the frag/massive frag thing where plague mortars could just shut their opponent down the entire game? I played exactly one game of Deadzone after I bought the kickstarter and my opponent and I looked at each other after 30 minutes, shrugged, and put the game away. It's been on my shelf ever since.

We fixed it by not taking mortars.

 MLaw wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Deadzone v2 is completely different, recommend having a look at the new rules, very different game which I've had an active role in helping to develop.

That's cool. I haven't looked but unless there's a free version though, that's not happening. I backed the creation of V1 and am not throwing more money down that pit..

In fairness, I am giving the beta for firefight a look.

If you were a backer of the first Kickstarter, Mantic has stated that you will get a free PDF of the full hardback V2 rules on release.

Welp thats all fixed any way. Mortar has Indirect(4) Instead.
which you can read about in the rules as the formatting goes berserk when I try and copy paste it out.

Didn't V1 have slow reload or whatever? That meant you couldn't fire it every turn I thought.

Warpath and Firefight suppression is a different thing completely though.

@MLaw

The Betas last version is probably the best demo you'd get. It plus the new stat lines and weapon master lists spread sheet are on the mantic forum, as opposed to Mantic Digital like the FF stuff.

I hope to see some battle reports and after action reports though.

The Firefight beta has turned out a lot better than the sneak preview, at least. Quite a lot to like about it, we just need to make it clear to them they have to keep the height based LoS, and never go back to awful TLoS ever again.

Also, I like that the basic stat lines and squad numbers stay the same between games, even if points and weapon options currently seem to differ slightly. A vanilla Enforcer squad having one set of stats for Warpath, and another for Firefight, would have been really tedious and annoying.

Oh, and it provides some additional perspective: by the numbers they're aiming for, a $75 battlegroup - especially ones heavy on plastic multikits - should constitute all you'll ever need for a Firefight army, excepting heavy vehicles or additional light ones. Pretty solid deal and affordable game, whether you use Mantic minis or go elsehwhere (f.ex Dreamforge alts for Enforcers or GCPS)

 Bioptic wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Deadzone v2 is completely different, recommend having a look at the new rules, very different game which I've had an active role in helping to develop.

That's cool. I haven't looked but unless there's a free version though, that's not happening. I backed the creation of V1 and am not throwing more money down that pit..

In fairness, I am giving the beta for firefight a look.

If you were a backer of the first Kickstarter, Mantic has stated that you will get a free PDF of the full hardback V2 rules on release.

Mantic says a lot of things..

NobodyXY - Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for that. Pretty busy month but I'll try to get it read over in time for a battle rep

does the Corp faction include rules for Orx? Thats what i got a ton of...

 pancakeonions wrote:
does the Corp faction include rules for Orx? Thats what i got a ton of...

Mass battle rules yes, Firefight no but firefight is early in development and only has 4 army lists so far so it's likely that the Marauders will go back in later.

I'm finding I'm more interested in the Firefight rules based on a very quick scan of them this morning.

Sorry that I'm put of the loop on this one, but when was it supposed to ship and they still only have 4 army rules in the rough draft version? I'm only doing $1 pledges on Mantic anymore (when they allow it ), and even then they have to be showing a lot more before I back anything further. I appreciate the rules committee guys and all the work they have done, but what Mantic is putting out right now is not worth it to me anymore to even consider. They need to have more than an idea written on a napkin before the next kickstarter, and I'm not talking about an idea to rip off the next GW game.

it's not due till September so plenty of time (maybe a bit dependant of where they are printing and shipping times)

To be fair since this is still just testing doing too many lists would be a waste of time, the need the mechanics nailed down first, and 4 is enough let a decent number of players provide feedback

@MLaw I hear you. I can't even sit down long enough to absorb FF.

@Theophony What offerings are subpar? DZI and WP atleast seemed well thought out. Atleast post split between WP and FF.

Not sure what idea their ripping off of GWs. You mean mass/company/skirmish level sci-fi gaming? They do like one of those currently. Not sure what you're mad about what exactly? I gotta admit I'm curious. Just Mantic existing?


I wish they'd use a hard Alpha/Beta Definition.
Alpha= Features, Beta = Content. Would make things clearer.

The PM is open for another month and it's not shipping until September, there isn't actually anything to overreact to, or get angry or upset about right now.

It won't be shipping in September, that's for sure. Maybe "Wave 1" will "start" shipping in September, but this one's going to drag out painfully. Besides, you're about as over-positive, happy and completely uncritical about anything and everything that Mantic do as anyone in the world can possibly be (along with Mikes), so I think people are still going to discuss the kickstarter without remembering to be smiles and rainbows about everything that Mantic say or do. Especially when they're basically relying on unpaid volunteers for so much of their rules writing and proofreading at this point.

 NobodyXY wrote:
@MLaw I hear you. I can't even sit down long enough to absorb FF.

@Theophony What offerings are subpar? DZI and WP atleast seemed well thought out. Atleast post split between WP and FF.

Not sure what idea their ripping off of GWs. You mean mass/company/skirmish level sci-fi gaming? They do like one of those currently. Not sure what you're mad about what exactly? I gotta admit I'm curious. Just Mantic existing?


I wish they'd use a hard Alpha/Beta Definition.
Alpha= Features, Beta = Content. Would make things clearer.

Sub Par offerings= Sculpts that don't live up to the designs given to us during kickstarters (trolls ) Dungeon Saga typos and racial goofs, Replacement of rules at such a fast pace (Deadzone). Yes I know GW does the same thing, but I'm not defending GW. Ripping off GW, Uncharted Empire (can't blaime them really for doing it since it was a market thats available), KOW=Warhammer, Warpath+40K, Deadzone= Necromunda, they have been bandying about a not Mordheim and Dungeon Saga= Hero Quest. All we Need now is a NOT-Warmaster and a NOT-Epic. Mantic had a chance of at least breaking out with expanding the Mars Attacks to have different nations of the world and do a contemporary battles that GW hasn't done, or a contemporary alien invasion game. We have ex-GW employees who still hang out and game with current GW employees so I get that there would be cross over, but it's like GWlite. I'm upset with the lost potential that Mantic has squandered, and the fact that they have binned Mars Attacks already and have killed my interest in TWD game.

Theres a difference between well thought out and having an actual skeleton of a system together. Have they decided on seperate bases or is it still multibased?

I'm sorry you don't like some of mantics sculpts. I never said if GW does it it's okay. Deadzone needed it. Nearly everyone agrees there and the rules are better for it.

GW lite would be bad. Its more like GW rewinding the clock 15 years when they had the freedom to try things but with the added bonus of everything thing they do being done under a microscope meaning that they can't seperate themselves from there customers and lose touch with what their customers need.

Well I mean its been a crazy year and half for GW but you know what I mean. I saw an ad for 60p SM sprue the other day while looking for the pics of the old leg badges and campaign badges, and thought of Mantics $20 for 20 deal. They have similarities but most of those relate more to Past GW than current GW in my opinion.

Necromunda was stand alone. It wasn't an avenue to build up to larger battles. It was this cool little stop on GW's journey. Deadzone is a well supported product. It also happens to be integrated in their main offer.

Meaning that the current Forge Father Deadzone starter is just about 300-400 points in Firefight. All usable units in the box. Or a half unit each in Warpath. That seems like a well thought out product line to me.

You wanted mantic to do Bolt-action lite with aliens? BOW did a similar thing. but instead of TWD? I mean sure it'd be cool to do alien invasions but others already had products like that out. No one was doing a TWD style game, at a board game hybrid level.

The whole Scifi side of mantics offering has more modern leanings. Warpath= 40k Is factually wrong. On my first turn of Warpath what I guessed solidified. It's just got a completely different feel crunch and fluff wise. Multi-basing would work better in WP than single basing. The split has cemented the basing differences more. To be honest I can't comment on Firefight in any meaningful way yet.

There's also a difference between a finished retail product and a an alpha ruleset. Mantic nearly always has to show WIP rules. Stuff will change.

 Azazelx wrote:
Besides, you're about as over-positive, happy and completely uncritical about anything and everything that Mantic do as anyone in the world can possibly be (along with Mikes), so I think people are still going to discuss the kickstarter without remembering to be smiles and rainbows about everything that Mantic say or do.

I'm actually not, I just seem that way in comparison here, much like a half flat torch would seem like the sun in an underground cave at midnight.

 Azazelx wrote:
you're about as over-positive, happy and completely uncritical about anything and everything that Mantic do as anyone in the world can possibly be (along with Mikes),

If it wouldn't have been deleted I would have suggested where you shove your allusion sideways. I'm not uncritical, you're just ignoring when I haven't been for... well, actually I don't know why. But eitheway I'll thank you to leave me out of any grievance you have with anyone else.

Yeah, I really hope they stick with height-based LOS. The way that TLOS treats figures as literal statues is really stupid. People claim TLOS is immersive, but what's immersive about a figure in a crouching pose apparently sliding around the battlefield on his knees? Different figure poses having actual gameplay effects is insane.

TLOS would be a gamebreaker for me.

There's nothing immersive about it unless you're imagine that it's literally your immobile plastic figures fighting a battle rather than the fictional warriors they represent.

And that's without going into the can of worms that is modelling for advantage.

Agreed on all counts. TLOS was a scourge in the previous version of KoW.