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They're just hungry. Oh so hungry.

We haven't seen any Plague rats yet, I wonder if all the different contagions they brew and carry for warfare have given them Three Stooges Syndrome?

Deadzone-relevant comment from Ronnie in the Mantic Blog:

We will have a starter set with Forgefather vs. Enforcers. The Infestation will be an expansion with the Veer-Myn coming a month or 2 later – except backers who get it all

So it looks like there's 3 major products in "Deadzone 2.0" now - a big hardback rulebook, a starter set (presumably with cut down/set-specific rules) and Infestation, an expansion specifically for Deadzone 2.0.

The article itself describes how Mantic sees its games in the tabletop/skirmish game/boardgame spectrum.
https://manticblog.com/2016/02/16/crossover-or-hybrid/

 Bioptic wrote:
Deadzone-relevant comment from Ronnie in the Mantic Blog:

We will have a starter set with Forgefather vs. Enforcers. The Infestation will be an expansion with the Veer-Myn coming a month or 2 later – except backers who get it all

So it looks like there's 3 major products in "Deadzone 2.0" now - a big hardback rulebook, a starter set (presumably with cut down/set-specific rules) and Infestation, an expansion specifically for Deadzone 2.0.

The article itself describes how Mantic sees its games in the tabletop/skirmish game/boardgame spectrum.
https://manticblog.com/2016/02/16/crossover-or-hybrid/

So how long untill they decide to do DZ 3.0? Is all my current DZ 1.0 stuff now obsolete with 2.0? That would be my Acrylic tokens, Secret Weapon DZ board, all the rulebooks, the (awfully bad) hard back book I made sure I spent extra money in the KS so I could receive it, all that can go into the bin? Why should i trust Mantic with rules anymore when they rush things out the door and sort it out later with another KS?

overtyrant wrote:
So how long untill they decide to do DZ 3.0? Is all my current DZ 1.0 stuff now obsolete with 2.0? That would be my Acrylic tokens, Secret Weapon DZ board, all the rulebooks, the (awfully bad) hard back book I made sure I spent extra money in the KS so I could receive it, all that can go into the bin? Why should i trust Mantic with rules anymore when they rush things out the door and sort it out later with another KS?

Part of me wants to comment that most people would rather have new rules that work than save money with lousy rules, but I think that root problem was that DZ1 was a rush job.

To get to your real question "Why should you trust Mantic?" Alas, you probably shouldn't. They're good guys with enthusiasm and a love for gaming, but they really haven't shown any ability to become a professional gaming company.

sadly I think very few comppanies really nail a rule set first time,

so if you buy version 1 you should expect either

a frustrating time with lots of house ruling problems (bad)

lots of errata from the company (better, but not ideal this is the old method of fix)

or

a fairly rapid 2nd edition (again not ideal, but it tends to happen faster nowadays as there is more competition, and more communiction between potential purchacers)

Not sure how your board would be obsolete, most of your tokens are usable and necessary. This edition did come out a bit sooner than I think most anticipated but it was needed.

The rules needed cleaning up.

All your models from DZ1 are still in. Heck even minis that arent for DZ. The old WP minis all have stats (at least the ones I own.)

DZ1s problem was that they had no idea the campaign would go that far, alot of new minis needed rules and alot of those minis fell outside of the scope (Striders, bikes and rebs).

@Polonius . They have a 100% KS success rate. No failed or undelivered KSs. Thousands of backers. They are willing to listen to problems with rules and actually hold alphas and betas. I'd be fine with the untrustworthy statement if it weren't for companies like Prodos and GW occupying the same space.

Why should you trust mantic? The line of fantasy and scifi mini's in hard plastic.

How about sensible female scifi minis also in hard plastic?

What getting you everything in the box ala DZ1 without nickel and diming you to death just to play the game.

What about straight to retail support post KS for KOW? What about mantic basically welcoming refugees with open arms and without forcing them to restart their armies. Despite the fact that it wasn't a very professional move.

 Polonius wrote:
Part of me wants to comment that most people would rather have new rules that work than save money with lousy rules, but I think that root problem was that DZ1 was a rush job.

I know this is a prevailing opinion that somehow DZ1 is unplayable (contrast in 2013 when it was hot gak), but I enjoyed several dozen games of DZ1.0 with no problem... I thought the rules were ace. I wasn't doing any tournament style games, so perhaps that's where the problems were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NobodyXY wrote:
Why should you trust mantic?

I love me some Mantic but they only 100% trust for Mantic is wait until you can see at retail what you're getting for your dollars.

From my, albeit rather limited experience of Deadzone:

I think DZ1 is a great game, as long as you play "Enforcers VS Plague", or "Asterians VS ForgeFathers" (but I only tried that a couple of times).

Rebs VS anyone, results in the rebs player having a terrible time.
Marauders VS anyone, results in the opposing player having a terrible time.

 Compel wrote:
From my, albeit rather limited experience of Deadzone:

I think DZ1 is a great game, as long as you play "Enforcers VS Plague", or "Asterians VS ForgeFathers" (but I only tried that a couple of times).

Rebs VS anyone, results in the rebs player having a terrible time.
Marauders VS anyone, results in the opposing player having a terrible time.

Played a lot of games of the base game. Perhaps it was the expansions where unbalance came in, but the Rebs were nuts! At least in my experience! That Teraton always ruined my Enforcers day.
IMHO DZ1 - core game, mind you - is eminently playable and a very fun game. Very little experience with expansions.
It seems like DZ2 is almost a new game, which is also fine.

 NobodyXY wrote:

@Polonius . They have a 100% KS success rate. No failed or undelivered KSs. Thousands of backers. They are willing to listen to problems with rules and actually hold alphas and betas. I'd be fine with the untrustworthy statement if it weren't for companies like Prodos and GW occupying the same space.

Don't get me wrong. I love Mantic. I have their Ogres that I use to play Kings of War. I backed the KOW kickstarters and deadzone. I think they do a great job with some aspects of community interaction.

They have very spotty quality assurance for art, and an inconsistent art direction. Their Kickstarters deliver on time, but mispacks are rampant, and people that are missing things (like me) can go months without any communication, much less receiving the product. They have customer service more in line with a part time hobby business, not a professional company. They've already announced that they're dropping the license for their first third party IP venture (Mars Attacks!), and their games tend to have very short edition cycles, coming closer to two years than I'd like.

Why should you trust mantic? The line of fantasy and scifi mini's in hard plastic.

How about sensible female scifi minis also in hard plastic?

What getting you everything in the box ala DZ1 without nickel and diming you to death just to play the game.

What about straight to retail support post KS for KOW? What about mantic basically welcoming refugees with open arms and without forcing them to restart their armies. Despite the fact that it wasn't a very professional move.

Those are reasons to like Mantic, not reasons to trust them. I think they're worth doing business with despite me not fully trusting them, but I've seen enough of Ronnie's unvarnished enthusiasm up front, and the reality after, to harbor some skepticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Part of me wants to comment that most people would rather have new rules that work than save money with lousy rules, but I think that root problem was that DZ1 was a rush job.

I know this is a prevailing opinion that somehow DZ1 is unplayable (contrast in 2013 when it was hot gak), but I enjoyed several dozen games of DZ1.0 with no problem... I thought the rules were ace. I wasn't doing any tournament style games, so perhaps that's where the problems were.

I never actually played through my DZ box. I painted all the factions, and never really got anybody interested in trying the game. The main complaints I saw was that when played "naively," it was actually a lot of fun. It was just really simple to figure out, or read about, the stronger combinations and tactics.

For a lot of people, the time seems even more compressed. DZ1 first wave, which included the rules, more or less shipped in December 2013, and DZ2 launched in March 2015. I'm not sure when it became clear that Infestation was really DZ 2.0, but that's still only about 15 months between players actually having the rules in hand, and finding out that they'll be replaced. Another way to look at it is the difference between getting DZ1 and actually getting DZ2, but I think it's human nature to lose interest in a rule set when you know it's going to be replaced soon, especially for more of a niche game.

@Polinus
The art thing I'd agree with right up until dungeon saga. After that I'd argue everything is internally consistent art wise but I can understand that the art direction being something you dislike, personally if thats the issue.

Being on the receiving end of a mispack I know that it sucks. That being said turn around for me has been a lot quicker than months. This was just after the KOW2 KS that I had a mispack issue and it was a retail product though.

I think editing ate the rules complaints part of your post but Action Chains, restic and a confusing rulebook were the main complaints I heard(And Rebs!). Availability was also an issue. My FLGS got the starter but nothing else making it hard to drum up interest.

I agree that it was compressed. But It was kind of critical for the lower of the three games to be right. Just having the rules committees process helped a lot I think.

Warpath and FF need DZ to be a good experience.If Warpath is getting rebooted makes sense to do DZ too.

For me I was willing to help fund the 2.0 despite buying in way way after the retail release because it just needed it. Backers of the original are getting an updated pdf aren't they? $1 DZI backers are getting them too I believe.

I think that plus the beta makes getting the rule as easy to do as possible. As far as the hardback DZ1 It was a bad product from what I've heard and that's 100% on mantic. It sucks that you got a bad product and I'd be weary because of it too.

I guess I trust a company that trusts it's fans enough to actively write/change there rules. I trust a company that has so many funded KSes It shows that they know how to deliver.
They are small enough to not suddenly disappear, but not big enough to get lazy/greedy. I trust that mantic lives or dies by the good will of the community. KS is a double edged sword after all. I think they walk the line really well. I hate the idea that some people want them to be GW2 (Not aimed any one in paticular but its what I fear people want.)

I don't expect much else than that.

Nevermind that leaving DZ as is would have worked fine for a while longer and probably be cheaper in the short term. They didn't have to fix DZ. They didn't have to ship out a fixed AC to backers. Those things make me trust mantic more than anything I like about them. Being able to say "whoops" and then try and fix it shows dedication to people who already invested.

I'm unclear as to what exactly happens in Mars Attacks case.

@Judgedog I'd agree retail is a safer bet definitely but thats not just Mantic though. DZ1 is a good game, but had issues that if this was other games would have continued for years and years.

@Compel What is the agreed OP Marauder list? FAQs fixed some of the Marauder stuff. Nearly every DZ1 game I played marauders were used, I just had more of them then even enforcers. They lost their fair share.

 NobodyXY wrote:
@Polinus
The art thing I'd agree with right up until dungeon saga. After that I'd argue everything is internally consistent art wise but I can understand that the art direction being something you dislike, personally if thats the issue.

The art direction has gotten substantially better, I'll agree. There are still missteps, but for example I'm not as down on the Greater Elemental as most. I don't see the need for a $40 resin model when Reaper has theirs for $8, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Being on the receiving end of a mispack I know that it sucks. That being said turn around for me has been a lot quicker than months. This was just after the KOW2 KS that I had a mispack issue and it was a retail product though.

MIne wasn't a mispack, they just "ran out" of counters and movement trays when they packed my KOW2 pledge. I've filed multiple forms, exchanged a dozen emails with Rich Armstrong, and spoke with a rep on facebook. I was told mulitiple times that "they've just come in" or "they'll be shipped right away." Of course, I still haven't received them.

I just laugh about it now. That's $50 in movement trays and the counters I supposed to get free... just gone, with apparently no recourse. I've literally done everything I can, other than just start dropping a stream of obscenities at Ronnie when I'm at adepticon. Sorry if my trust isn't there when Mantic employees have, if not lied, vigorously misrepresented the status of goods I paid for a year ago.

My 5 man enforcer team whipped the pants off my buddy's marauders. And it was my first afternoon playing, while he'd been playing off and on for a month. Enforcers are the real beatsticks.

I've got to say, the last time I played with/against marauders was after the Rebs point increase (well, 'errata') but before any nerfs I'd heard of to them. The main thing though I remember in my games anyhow, was just the basic troopers were so darned cheap.
I kinda mostly wrote off Deadzone for anything except Plague VS Enforcers.

overtyrant wrote:


So how long untill they decide to do DZ 3.0? Is all my current DZ 1.0 stuff now obsolete with 2.0? That would be my Acrylic tokens, Secret Weapon DZ board, all the rulebooks, the (awfully bad) hard back book I made sure I spent extra money in the KS so I could receive it, all that can go into the bin? Why should i trust Mantic with rules anymore when they rush things out the door and sort it out later with another KS?

Acrylic tokens, mostly still usable, even the plague ones if using a certain leader. V2 has much less fiddly token clutter.

SW Deadzone board definitely still usable, I have one too.

Rulebooks are the only thing really being replaced,which is fair enough considering it is a new edition released 2 years after the original. It was necessary, v1 was just too complex and non-intuitive, games required constant referencing of rules that didn't make much sense (being in cover was mostly a bad thing).

There won't be a version 3 needed for an extremely long time, if the RC has anything to do with it (and we're pretty much writing the expansion books ourselves at this point, other than background, the Infestation expansion book is 100% our work). Any time new models are released, they'll get Deadzone stats. Expansions will release a lot of extra new content, Deadzone Infestation is the first, with:

- Lots of new army lists based on special characters leading their own personal strike teams, we're going through every one of them, including all of the v1 releases.
- Linked narrative campaign.
- Environmental effects.
- Alternate rules for running a regular campaign in that particular deadzone.

Revisiting and updating Nexus Psi for V2 would be great, and there are lots of other projects we have planned for the game, there will be a stream of official content released.

@squig
It's awesome that characters will get more attention in Infestation. Any idea when backers get the PDF? I assume if its off to printing I'd imagine soonish. Will the army-lists in infestation get publicly tested too?

@Polonius that is substantially worse. You definitely deserved credit or something at least. They've got a new guy in jan. After looking at the latest update on KOW it seems like there are a couple of other people waiting on stuff too. This is probably the best time to ask before they get busy again. assuming you haven't since then. Don't give up

In ten days the warehouse will supposedly ship my missing order (I think. Automated message was vague). Of all the many assurances I have received about my missing items, this is the most recent.

I would say that mantic has a 100% completion rate on kickstarters. Wouldnt say they have a 100% success rate however unless your sole criteria is that it gets finished and most but not all people got mostbof what they ordered regardless of quality when you consider mispacks, switched materials, things being rushed out the door unfinished and of poor quality and whatever the happened with the Men at arms and most the female baselians.

According to their computer 100% of the orders got felt with and are now completed. Packing slips may have been printed for 100% of the orders, but you know the nuisance of those papers just laying around cluttering up the place.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
My 5 man enforcer team whipped the pants off my buddy's marauders. And it was my first afternoon playing, while he'd been playing off and on for a month. Enforcers are the real beatsticks.

Did you turtle? Zero snark question but sitting still with enforcers and firing away (such fun and tactically challenging) tended to be the answer for winning against marauders.

From TWD thread but more relevant here:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
How is this one 'only' at $418K entering into the last week?

I really would've thought this property as a KS would be doing much better at this point.

Maybe a Walking Dead game would lend itself better as a boardgame vs. a wargame?

Or...something?

Still paying for serious missteps at the start. People who would have taken a look at it, shrugged at the lack of solid value for a KS and walked away. If Mantic is lucky, some of those people will look again when the 48-hr warning comes up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least someone at Mantic (I'm guessing Matt) was clued in enough to push back the closing date for the WarPath Pledge Manager from it's previous date of right about now when the new KS is winding up until the end of next month.

Yes, that and I didn't think it was fair that people hadn't seen firefight yet. The plan is to get that out to people for the weekend and both that and warpath will get structured playtesting like I ran for KoW. For WP it will be about army lists and points values, for Firefight it will be about the rules first and then the balance later.

Stew will put out more information later this week. If the plan changes (I'll want to know why!) I'll let you know.

DBX backers are getting Mantic Digital codes for a DBX and DBO 4-6 compendium. Don't expect too much, they're just the usual Mantic "compendiums" that are just all the books stapled together without even fixing the index and page numbers.

@Privateer4hire
Enforcers tactics are heavily slanted towards positioning. That's why the Assault Enforcer is Noob bait. Try using a burst laser and assault enforcer combo. Burst laser puts them down, assault enforcer cleans up. Or the burst laser can be placed up high with the Assault enforcer blocking any easy route up, great for objectives . Don't underestimate the basic enforcer either. Enforcers can hold better than anything I've played with in V1.

I haven't got to play with them much in V2. Rats and Dorfs got a day in the sun during the beta.

Honestly if your still playing V1 you're missing out though.

@Mattjgilbert Good to hear that FF will be beta'd soon.

@carlos13th Material changes are disappointing sure, but it's not a preorder. stuff changes just like any other in development product. I think mantic shows things a little earlier than most companies and so you see products evolving, couple that with KS and certain people are going to see any change as a betrayal because in their eyes they already paid for the product as described/shown. It's certainly not for everyone and It might not even be for me personally.

I consider a KS successful if it meets the following criteria:
1. Not more than a year late.
2. All efforts are made to get people their stuff, up to and including backer error, misplacks and replacing rushed materials.
2. That the company is financially capable of doing 1.
3. The product on show is barring exceptional circumstance the product delivered.

All that being said if you don't like how mantic operate during a KS go retail FLGS and Mantic can always use retail support especially if they stock anything other GW product.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
DBX backers are getting Mantic Digital codes for a DBX and DBO 4-6 compendium. Don't expect too much, they're just the usual Mantic "compendiums" that are just all the books stapled together without even fixing the index and page numbers.

Well, I just got a "coupon usage has been reached" error when trying to use the link in the email...

Edit: Managed to get it working, just went on the mantic digital store, added the compedium manually then applied the code from the email.

I just saw a FB post that firefight rules were live (alpha or beta or whatever). I'm in too much of a hurry to post a link but check their FB or someone else here will post it.. whatever..

scarletsquig wrote:
There won't be a version 3 needed for an extremely long time, if the RC has anything to do with it (and we're pretty much writing the expansion books ourselves at this point, other than background, the Infestation expansion book is 100% our work). Any time new models are released, they'll get Deadzone stats. Expansions will release a lot of extra new content, Deadzone Infestation is the first, with:

- Lots of new army lists based on special characters leading their own personal strike teams, we're going through every one of them, including all of the v1 releases.
- Linked narrative campaign.
- Environmental effects.
- Alternate rules for running a regular campaign in that particular deadzone.

Revisiting and updating Nexus Psi for V2 would be great, and there are lots of other projects we have planned for the game, there will be a stream of official content released.

This all sounds fantastic!

Is the update of Nexus Psi an actual planned project, or is it still a "We'd really like to," concept at the moment? (If so, I'd like to request less stringent terrain requirements for the missions. I never got around to making that ruined hospital, though I've meant to for a year and a half now!)

The rules for Mars Attacks forces will be released online soon after the game ships, right? Is that plan still on track?

Also, can you comment on how quickly the new Warpath KS GCPS will be incorporated into DZ? I'm really excited to play that faction at the small skirmish level.

MLaw wrote:I just saw a FB post that firefight rules were live (alpha or beta or whatever). I'm in too much of a hurry to post a link but check their FB or someone else here will post it.. whatever..

http://www.manticdigital.com/product/warpath-firefight-playtest-rules

ugh.. it's not a directly hosted link.. you have to actually "buy" it..
guess I'll have to wait until I have a bit of free time..

Cool to finally see them. Factions are Enforcers, Forge Fathers, Plague and GCPS. D66 second objective table looks interesting. Suppression is there, which was one of my favourite parts of WP. Order dice have the same faces as WP. Only had time to skim.

Did they every fix the frag/massive frag thing where plague mortars could just shut their opponent down the entire game? I played exactly one game of Deadzone after I bought the kickstarter and my opponent and I looked at each other after 30 minutes, shrugged, and put the game away. It's been on my shelf ever since.