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Roknar wrote: Huh, could this work? Think of it as a sort of 40k moritat.
Jump pack Black legion lord with black clad brute: 4+ on a charge to deal d3 mortal wounds.(and extra strength but who cares)
Chiropteran Wings: 4+ in the movement and charge phase when moving over stuff, d3 mortal wounds.
Pistol for daemon shells, d3 mortal wounds
Maybe add a thunderhammer for good measure, or a plasma pistol for obvious reasons
Maneuvering in such a way that you can actually shoot the character might be luck, but charging/ flying past it should be much more manageable.
That alone could generate 3d3 MW, which would be an average of 6 wounds with no saves regardless of toughness.
Enough to kill most characters in a very cheap package. And you can fall back +charge again for another 2d3 MW due to the BL stratagem, though I doubt that need would come up.
And it doesn't rely on other characters being around.
Coming back to this, this would be better on a sorcerer, now you can smite and infernal gaze for an additional 2d3 mortal wounds, potentially 6 d3 mortal wounds
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I for one like the idea of adding a Lord Discordant to my Daemons. I already run a double Bloodthirster list with a Keeper of Secrets thrown in to boot, so having yet more target saturation for big guns while giving me the option to get rotor cannon Havocs to clear chaff sounds great. Sure, he's not protected by Character status, but he's plenty tanky for his points, especially when there's three other big nasties and a party bus of Berzerkers coming down the field.
It's not competetive, but it works perfectly fine in a more relaxed setting.
I think if you run a list with big mele threats and deepstrike threats then you get the best of both worlds as your opponent will want to spread out to deny deepstrike but also want to ball up in a coner to prevent being bum rushed by bezerkers and lord discordants.
I think some bloodletter bombs/warp talons with a soulforged pack of lord discordants and defilers/maulerfields wouod be hard to play against.
I'm running Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons allied to World Eaters, so I've got a bunch of Daemonettes running across the board as well, so there's a lot of stuff that has to die very quickly. Granted, Daemonettes die like slime, but they're buying time anyway.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Roknar wrote: Huh, could this work? Think of it as a sort of 40k moritat.
Jump pack Black legion lord with black clad brute: 4+ on a charge to deal d3 mortal wounds.(and extra strength but who cares)
Chiropteran Wings: 4+ in the movement and charge phase when moving over stuff, d3 mortal wounds.
Pistol for daemon shells, d3 mortal wounds
Maybe add a thunderhammer for good measure, or a plasma pistol for obvious reasons
Maneuvering in such a way that you can actually shoot the character might be luck, but charging/ flying past it should be much more manageable.
That alone could generate 3d3 MW, which would be an average of 6 wounds with no saves regardless of toughness.
Enough to kill most characters in a very cheap package. And you can fall back +charge again for another 2d3 MW due to the BL stratagem, though I doubt that need would come up.
And it doesn't rely on other characters being around.
Coming back to this, this would be better on a sorcerer, now you can smite and infernal gaze for an additional 2d3 mortal wounds, potentially 6 d3 mortal wounds
This doesn’t sound bad at all if the Sorcerer is given BCB via Council of Traitors. Elsewhere, your CL/DP/AtD Warlord is not dying, and a Dark Apostle is laying down a defensive buff and using Trusted War leader to offset the CP investment in your disposable guided MW missile.
What spells to give this fiendish flyboy? Infernal Gaze and Gift of Chaos might be unusually viable, here.
I'm running Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons allied to World Eaters, so I've got a bunch of Daemonettes running across the board as well, so there's a lot of stuff that has to die very quickly. Granted, Daemonettes die like slime, but they're buying time anyway.
If they're shooting at your deamonettes then theyre not shooting at your party buses!
I've been trying out world eater zerker rush with warp talons and khorne daemons. Seems to work well enough!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/09 19:02:53
I'm not sure I've caught it, where are Chiropteran Wings from?
Also, do we yet know the specifics of the Lord Discordant base size? I'm trying to test out the viability of converting a heldrake near the ground to serve as a kitbashed mount ^.^
drakerocket wrote: I'm not sure I've caught it, where are Chiropteran Wings from?
Also, do we yet know the specifics of the Lord Discordant base size? I'm trying to test out the viability of converting a heldrake near the ground to serve as a kitbashed mount ^.^
Maulerfiend base size.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
drakerocket wrote: I'm not sure I've caught it, where are Chiropteran Wings from?
They're the relic that comes with the Host Raptorial specialist detachment in Vigilus Ablaze.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Btw,
If you had the spare points and needed a footslogging distraction.. would you take as red corsairs.. a unit of chosen with chain axes and combi-bolters with power axe on the champ or a unit of khorne berzerkers with chain axes and sword with power axe on champ and a icon of wrath? Zerkers are for sure better in melee for fight twice, but chosen with combi-bolters will contribute also in the shooting phase. Both are glasscannon units without a ride.. RC chapter tactics is nice for both.. Wondering here which to distraction to build. I think you can make nice looking zerkers from the new CSM box..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/09 20:51:03
Xirax wrote: Btw,
If you had the spare points and needed a footslogging distraction.. would you take as red corsairs.. a unit of chosen with chain axes and combi-bolters with power axe on the champ or a unit of khorne berzerkers with chain axes and sword with power axe on champ and a icon of wrath? Zerkers are for sure better in melee for fight twice, but chosen with combi-bolters will contribute also in the shooting phase. Both are glasscannon units without a ride.. RC chapter tactics is nice for both.. Wondering here which to distraction to build. I think you can make nice looking zerkers from the new CSM box..
The Chosen cost less, and whilst they’re footslogging they can kick out 10-20 shots - which yields some extra value back, and also makes them a nuisance that brings pressure to bear and provokes return fire before they get within close range. The Berzerkers can be ignored until they get close, and have to brave Overwatch to be a menace worth worrying about.
The difference between the Chosen and the Berzerkers is close to the difference between the Berzerkers and an Obliterator. Or a Havoc squad with autocannons or heavy bolters.
Three bikers could also come in at the Chosen’s price point. Their mobility gives them a very different ability to draw aggro?
Xirax wrote: Btw,
If you had the spare points and needed a footslogging distraction.. would you take as red corsairs.. a unit of chosen with chain axes and combi-bolters with power axe on the champ or a unit of khorne berzerkers with chain axes and sword with power axe on champ and a icon of wrath? Zerkers are for sure better in melee for fight twice, but chosen with combi-bolters will contribute also in the shooting phase. Both are glasscannon units without a ride.. RC chapter tactics is nice for both.. Wondering here which to distraction to build. I think you can make nice looking zerkers from the new CSM box..
The Chosen cost less, and whilst they’re footslogging they can kick out 10-20 shots - which yields some extra value back, and also makes them a nuisance that brings pressure to bear and provokes return fire before they get within close range. The Berzerkers can be ignored until they get close, and have to brave Overwatch to be a menace worth worrying about.
The difference between the Chosen and the Berzerkers is close to the difference between the Berzerkers and an Obliterator. Or a Havoc squad with autocannons or heavy bolters.
Three bikers could also come in at the Chosen’s price point. Their mobility gives them a very different ability to draw aggro?
Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 00:07:46
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
If Marine statline was good, sure. But berzerkers are probably better still. Or just taking an equivalent number of points of daemon princes or, well, anything with D2. MeQs just die way too easily. Berzerkers are at least decently cheap.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Anyone have thoughts on this Engine Rush list? My biggest hesitation is the Defilers....is the S16 (for killing Knights) worth taking them?
I'm also considering fitting a Sorcerer in, who sit back and put Miasma on the Levi, for a -2 with the Apostle's prayer.
Since no one can take advantage of legion traits (no infantry!), I made the Leviathan Purge so he can still shoot at things that get tied up.
Everyone else is World Eaters bc I think the strat is useful and the Discordant's aura only affects the same legion.
Decimators have some chaff-clearing guns to rush forward and remove some screens before the big boys get there.
EVERYTHING in this list (except for the Levi) will benefit from Epidemius's tally. I really thought about making a DP fit in there, but decided I don't need it bc after the second kill, everyone gets reroll 1's anyhow.
My thought is to shoot each butcher array at separate Cultist/Guard units, kill 6-8 of them, and then finish off each unit with a Decimator each, getting me those two easy kills on T1.
Pretty sure world eaters are required to take the mark of khorne.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
The sad thing is a single khorne berserker champion with PF is almost as threatening as all 4 of those TH chosen. Especially if he's world eaters. Thunder hammer chosen just seem like a trap. They cost what, 34 a pop? So a min unit is 150, for 10 more points I get our shiny new lord discordant. I like the new wargear option, but I still wince at the idea of putting such gear on 1 wound marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 02:51:12
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
If Marine statline was good, sure. But berzerkers are probably better still. Or just taking an equivalent number of points of daemon princes or, well, anything with D2. MeQs just die way too easily. Berzerkers are at least decently cheap.
there's a scary thought, put a thunderhammer on the bezekrer champion
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Terminators do this better. Double the cost, but ~4x the durability (aka double the durability per point vs most weapons), less worry about morale issues, deepstrike, and all your shots at 24". The Chosen do get more bolter shots per point, but bolters are really inefficient, so they are easy to ignore. The terminators can throw in a couple combi-plasmas and be a serious thread if they close in, and provide more durable character shields.
Not saying this is optimal, but Chosen can now take 4 Thunderhammers per squad. Terminators cannot.
Thinking some whacked out Khorne list is seeking this unit.
If Marine statline was good, sure. But berzerkers are probably better still. Or just taking an equivalent number of points of daemon princes or, well, anything with D2. MeQs just die way too easily. Berzerkers are at least decently cheap.
there's a scary thought, put a thunderhammer on the bezekrer champion
I wish we could, however - like the Terminators - his power weapons come from a list other than the melee weapons list. Basically, only Chosen and (some) actual characters may take a TH.
Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
I think a berserker squad would have problems doing the same thing, even with Kharn and an exalted champion as support. I didn't do the math on the berserker squad, but I have actually tried this before. Usually opponent spends the 2 CP, interrupts and mashes my zerkers into pulp before they even get to attack a second time, unless there are multiple charges going off everywhere. Even then, I haven't actually ever managed to bring a full HP knight down with a zerker attack yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, there was a lot of compliants about the Havocs new kit only having just one chain cannon. But after making a lot of different lists, I ended up not having a havocs squad with 4 chain cannon guns most of the time.
The reason is that in the end, its still just 5 models with 1W each. And given how dangerous chain cannons are against chaff, any good opponent will shoot everything he has against that havoc squad if it is in the field. You can't always assume you are going first. And a good opponent who goes second can counter deploy against you, put his chaff out of line of sight or out of range on turn 1, and then kill off your havocs.
I instead end up making lists where I have one or maybe two chain cannons in a huge squad of 20 CSM. So, yeah, you want to kill that chain cannon guy, you kill off 18 or 19 normal CSM first. (which is no trival feat).
If I really wanted to have havoc squads, I end up making havoc squads with 4 autocannons or even 4 heavy bolters. Because of that strategem punishing volley (it lets you shoot once after your enemy has moved in the first turn if you don't get to go first). Chain cannons are too short range to gaurantee good targets when you use that strategem. But autocannons and even heavy bolters will likely gaurantee you some good targets.
If I really wanted to have 3 havoc squads. I honestly would consider putting just 1 chain cannon, and then fill the other three with autocannons or heavy bolters or a mix. So, its super cheap, and again, if they want to get at the chain cannon guy, they at least have to go through 4 havoc guys first.
So what about you guys? Are you all still firmly in the 4 chain cannon havoc squad camp?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 06:42:51
Not much mention of Alpha Legion yet since the new drops. But chain havocs are a perfect benefactor of their play style, especially since now even slaaneshi units can get to -2.
I like chain cannons hidden in tac squads, but then again I like auto cannons and even lascannons done the same. But none of them compare to the concentrated fire of havocs. 64 shots buffed to high hell isn't really comparable to the annoyance that one represents in a tac squad. So yeah, I'm still firmly in the chain havoc camp.
grouchoben wrote: Not much mention of Alpha Legion yet since the new drops. But chain havocs are a perfect benefactor of their play style, especially since now even slaaneshi units can get to -2.
May i ask how the -2 slaanesh AL Havocs is achieved? Thanks
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
10 CSM with 2 lascannons are more expensive than a predator with 4 lascannons. Just saying.
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
10 CSM with 2 lascannons are more expensive than a predator with 4 lascannons. Just saying.
True. But you have to take 3 troop choices in a battalion anyway. So might as well make those troop choices useful. Especially now since you can bring them back at 3CP for red corsairs. And a predator tank doesn't come with 16 bolter shots at 24 inches (bolter discipline).
avedominusnox wrote: He mentioned even slaaneshi units and i was curious about that..
I took that to mean previously it was only possible with Nurgle via their spell but now being able to do it on the far shootier Slaanesh version is powerful.
What spell? Miasma is only for daemon units. But I get your point sure. I will soon tryout using the noctilith.. I think it will be quite useful with 3x10 CSM with double lascannons and 3x5 reaper havocs. Red Corsair CSM and AL havocs. Or maybe all AL for maximum penalties?
10 CSM with 2 lascannons are more expensive than a predator with 4 lascannons. Just saying.
It’s not the straight cost of 10 with LC compared to a las predator. It’s the battalion giving CPs Filled with Red corsair CSM.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
Eh, its a point sink for a unit that would need serious protection buffs to make it survive long enough to get into combat. If your looking for a cc answer to a knight the flawless host dp is a better and cheaper answer.
Standing in the light, I see only darkness. 
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