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Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
The Champion can choose to either take a Melee Weapon, *or* up to two Champion Equipment.
So, it’s thunder hammer & boltgun & bolt pistol, or any other power/chain weapon & any pistol or combi-weapon.
Weirdly restrictive. Can’t take a plasma pistol or combi weapon with a thunder hammer. I guess only commanders can afford both
Edit: but four of the squad members can take PP+TH. Or, for some reason, LC+CS.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 15:02:37
Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
Zid wrote: Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
Bring the nurgle daemon tree. Now your guys have an armor save of 0+. They save lascannon shots on 3+. They save all other stuff on 2+.
Zid wrote: Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
I've had similar list making problems. I could go all in and combine a unit of three with a jump pack sorcerer to cast prescience on the oblits and death hex on my target. That whole combo when buffed with VotLW and endless cacophony will make any big target in one round. But, as obvious, it is likely only go be useful against one target before it gets destroyed itself.
Other than a deathball drop they are just too pricey at 115 to bring a few as toolbox units.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
The Champion can choose to either take a Melee Weapon, *or* up to two Champion Equipment.
So, it’s thunder hammer & boltgun & bolt pistol, or any other power/chain weapon & any pistol or combi-weapon.
Weirdly restrictive. Can’t take a plasma pistol or combi weapon with a thunder hammer. I guess only commanders can afford both
Edit: but four of the squad members can take PP+TH. Or, for some reason, LC+CS.
Interesting. I am looking at the original 8th edition Codex. Did this change in v II, or was it from a FAQ, or was it from something else?
The book I have says it would be legal to have a Thunderhammer and plasma pistol on the Chosen, and the Champ could take a combi-weapon and any melee weapon (except the hammer.)
Zid wrote: Still trying to get oblits to fit into a list i like... but at 345 theyre so expensive. They play like Blightlords (minus the melee and large footprint) and can control a table quarter solo. But i have a hard time finding what else to bring. Anyone cracked this nut yet?
3 oblits with the gnarls tree, Mark Of Nurgle, Alpha Legion, With a Nurgle Sorcerer for Miasma and your oblits have an amazing save, and -2 to be hit. Throw a DA inthere for another -1 to be hit and they are set against anything out of close combat.
And so you do not feel like you are wasting points, you can put a unit of Havocs next to the tree as well. Adding more protection. Even a Contemptor Dread for extra shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 16:24:21
Thunder Hammer Chosen just won't be worth it. I play Thunder Hammer Command Squads with my Black Templars, and they die like slime despite the 3++ from the Storm Shield and my 5++ FNP stratagem, and I've got better offense than Chosen as well.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, world eaters chosen get 3 attacks a model on their thunderhammer... And the champion gets 4 attacks on the thunderhammer. Its not bad. And actually, the whole squad including the champion can take thunder hammers, not just 4. I remember I did some calculations a few pages back. A WE chosen squad with thunder hammers with some support from Kharn and an exaled champion can take down a castellan or a knight in one turn. Basically smash it into pieces before it can interrupt and strike back.
Thunderhammers appear on the melee weapons list.
Unless something changed in the new Codex, the Chosen Champion does not have access to the melee weapons list. So only 4 Chosen would be able to take Thunderhammers.
You can give all of them a plasma pistol. That's a pretty nice unit for ~160 points, considering they are infantry and have the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. Most Stratagems and psychic powers would apply.
The Champion can choose to either take a Melee Weapon, *or* up to two Champion Equipment.
So, it’s thunder hammer & boltgun & bolt pistol, or any other power/chain weapon & any pistol or combi-weapon.
Weirdly restrictive. Can’t take a plasma pistol or combi weapon with a thunder hammer. I guess only commanders can afford both
Edit: but four of the squad members can take PP+TH. Or, for some reason, LC+CS.
Interesting. I am looking at the original 8th edition Codex. Did this change in v II, or was it from a FAQ, or was it from something else?
The book I have says it would be legal to have a Thunderhammer and plasma pistol on the Chosen, and the Champ could take a combi-weapon and any melee weapon (except the hammer.)
The melee weapon entry is separate from the otheroptions, it specifally says that any chosen can take one item from the melee weapons list. This was indeed changed.
So you can have a unit of 10 thunderhammers, which is still cheaper than the knight they are going to down without needing support. enough to fit in a transport even.
They WILL kill a knight a turn, they also WILL die to a man right after.
of course even with a transport, getting them into combat with said knight is hardly reliable. Hilarious if they do though lol At least assuming WE or Black legion who both get 3 attacks each.
But then, what are our other options of killing a knight. There isn't much that can reliably kill a knight a turn, you always rely on stuff that can fail or be interupted, like deathhex.
In theory you could warptime a sorcerer into range for death hex turn one and acerberus landraider could then oneshot a knight...not gonna happen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 17:09:38
To people suggesting nurgle obits - they only put out 18 shots, for around 400pts investment. Compare that to the 24 shots oldblits put out with cacophony for 195pts. You're suggesting paying twice the amount for 2/3 of the output, that doesn't make sense.
The way they're priced, they're feasible as slaaneshi or not at all, as far as I can see.
I have had quite a bit of success running new oblits as nurgle w/ the tree. The major difference between them and slaanesh variation is deployment and useage. Going nurgle with the tree means you can start on the table and are hard to kill between the tree putting them at 0+ save and the option to heal wounds using the nurgle strat.
Slaanesh however is drop in, blast away, then in turn get shot off the table. They are a very effective tool when your opponent shows up with a squad of hellblasters in a repulser.
Personally i like the survival over the nuke crew.
If your CP battery is a Nurgle Daemons battalion, then Nurgle Oblits easily gain +1 damage on a 6 to wound, plus either a heal spell or Miasma without a Sorcerer.
If they’re part of an Epidemius list, then their contribution against hard targets easily approaches the old EC business.
On the topic of Epidemius - he’s been characterised as a ‘win amplifier’ who works when you army’s winning anyway. I don’t agree with that - he brings a couple of tricks:
- formidable scarecrow; most deep striking units will want to be pretty clear of him
- with just two boosts, he effectively gives you army-wide Daemon Prince coverage, enabling your DPs to do risky and suicidal attacks after helping your Killy gunners to get those early kills in the bank
- can draw a lot of aggro; your opponent knows that he provides a scaling buff and may well prioritise a risky decapitation
Azuza001 wrote: I have had quite a bit of success running new oblits as nurgle w/ the tree. The major difference between them and slaanesh variation is deployment and useage. Going nurgle with the tree means you can start on the table and are hard to kill between the tree putting them at 0+ save and the option to heal wounds using the nurgle strat.
Slaanesh however is drop in, blast away, then in turn get shot off the table. They are a very effective tool when your opponent shows up with a squad of hellblasters in a repulser.
Personally i like the survival over the nuke crew.
See this is pretty valid overall, and makes me kinda sold on starting them on the field versus deep strike. But you also have the option to DS the tree with them, and you arent forced to fuel them with Cacophony. However, you are eating a detachment to make it happen, which means the two detachments have to function well enough; which is my issue.
Being as i want to run them with either prescience, or they need to be purge, to be self sufficient for the most part. If i want prescience i feel like 1k sons would be wanted, to guarentee i can get it off when needed. If you go the tree route, you cut a lot from their killing power, and alpha legion doesnt lend itself well to some other stuff i might want to run in the detachment. Also, there are many things that can circumvent the -1 hit in many ways. Also, with FNP from a slaanesh sorcerer they are functionally more survivable in cover with that, and you could still do alpha legion and not eat a detachment.
I dont know, its really hard, i have three and i have played them a few games and really enjoy them, im just having trouble finding a list that clicks with them. Also, i feel like i would want black legion to cut back on how many CP these guys can eat.
On the topic of killing knights though, what are the opinions on a kharybdis?
You're likely going to have a sorcerer either way and if you warptime it, it could assault turn one and take a sizeable chunk out of a knight while still using its pistol nova, which is great vs just about anything for no other reason than sheer amount of hits..
I don't see any restriction to flying over stuff during a charge to bypass any screening units.
And then fill it with whatever you like for turn 2, even empty it will do some work if it's still alive.
**Edit**
You could also mark it nurgle and start an apostle on the board to give it a -2 to hit (at least -1 even on the enemy turn), that should definitely keep it alive, although I dislike putting an apostle into vehicles as you lose his buff for at least 2 rounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 19:39:29
Nora wrote: Does the new Havocs come with 40mm base? It sure looks like that on the photo there they stands next to Terminators:
They are massive, Lord sized atleast.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I have the new havocs and they indeed are on 40mm bases. They are about the same height as the new CSMs but they are noticably beefier and their weapons are huge.
I could see a list being good focused around multiple nurgle alpha legion oblit squads, buffed to the 9s with a tree to focus around. +1 damage on 6s, getting -2 to hit on all 3 squads with strategems, a priest, and psychic powers and a 0+ armor save with plague bearers to hide behind. Another Priest for +1 to hit, and cheap reroll 1s lord in the blob, or a master of possession with buffs could make the ~1000 points of oblits worth it. 54 buffed oblit shots would be nothing to sneeze at with like 60-90 plague bearers performing all of your board control. I haven't exactly pointed it out, but I feel like it could be done.
Unless you come across Imperial Fist Hellblasters, then you would just disappear.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/11 01:30:42
I am new to Chaos and not a real experienced 8th edition player so I am hoping you can help me out with some questions on building a list. With the release of new models I just want to build a semi competitive force with the models I like.
So question, do you just need 1 keyword to use a stratagem or ability? For instance, Raptors are Infantry (along with Jump Pack) as well as Greater Possessed (along with daemon) so does that mean they benefit from Legion Traits? Ie Renegade Chapters Advance and Charge?
Chaos Marks don't explicitly give you anything anymore correct? Like if you mark a unit of chaos space marines with nurgle, they dont get +1 toughness, it just allows them to make sure of stratagems or spells that have the nurgle key word?
It seems very complicated trying to mix and match all your units to different marks/chapters etc. So with all that in mind, these are my initial models/thoughts-
Spearhead Detachment- Make them a Soulforged Pack. I wont be using either Lord Discordant as a Warlord as they are going to die too easy, however, I can still make use of the Infernal Engines Stratagem. I have no idea what mark to give these guys as I dont know what would benefit them.
2 Lord Discordant
2 Venom Crawlers
1 Soul Grinder
As far as the rest, I was thinking Red Corsairs with
3x 5 CSM with rotor cannon- I was thinking of bumping one unit to 15 and having 2 smaller squads of 5
1 unit of havocs with lascannons
1 unit of 3 oblits
2 Greater Possessed. I really like these guys running alongside the daemon engines as they can buff the venom crawlers (and their weapons would make use of the +1 str) I was thinking I would add maybe 2 more.
Then I am kind stuck, I was thinking of adding in a jump pack lord (or sorcerer) and a few units of raptors equipped with plasmaguns.
So can you take a battalion, then use units within that battalion to make a devastation battery? Or are the units that form the devastation battery inclusive?
For that matter, can you take 2 specialist detachments, ie can I have my Soulforged Pack and a Devastation Batter? How many total detachments can you have in an army, including your specialist detachments at 2k?
urzaplanewalker wrote: I could see a list being good focused around multiple nurgle alpha legion oblit squads, buffed to the 9s with a tree to focus around. +1 damage on 6s, getting -2 to hit on all 3 squads with strategems, a priest, and psychic powers and a 0+ armor save with plague bearers to hide behind. Another Priest for +1 to hit, and cheap reroll 1s lord in the blob, or a master of possession with buffs could make the ~1000 points of oblits worth it. 54 buffed oblit shots would be nothing to sneeze at with like 60-90 plague bearers performing all of your board control. I haven't exactly pointed it out, but I feel like it could be done.
Unless you come across Imperial Fist Hellblasters, then you would just disappear.
You can fit 8 oblits (presuming that you're counting them as 115 points). 52 plaguebearers, MOP, sorcerer, 3x5 csm, herald, bilepiper, tree and 3x nurglings in a 2000 point list.
Would be difficult to know where to position the tree though. 24" from near a centre is not bad (especially moving 7" out. But if you get second turn and opponent drops 30 boyz round tree it's going to be hard work!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/11 12:20:04
I am new to Chaos and not a real experienced 8th edition player so I am hoping you can help me out with some questions on building a list. With the release of new models I just want to build a semi competitive force with the models I like.
Spoiler:
So question, do you just need 1 keyword to use a stratagem or ability? For instance, Raptors are Infantry (along with Jump Pack) as well as Greater Possessed (along with daemon) so does that mean they benefit from Legion Traits? Ie Renegade Chapters Advance and Charge?
Chaos Marks don't explicitly give you anything anymore correct? Like if you mark a unit of chaos space marines with nurgle, they dont get +1 toughness, it just allows them to make sure of stratagems or spells that have the nurgle key word?
It seems very complicated trying to mix and match all your units to different marks/chapters etc. So with all that in mind, these are my initial models/thoughts-
Spearhead Detachment- Make them a Soulforged Pack. I wont be using either Lord Discordant as a Warlord as they are going to die too easy, however, I can still make use of the Infernal Engines Stratagem. I have no idea what mark to give these guys as I dont know what would benefit them.
2 Lord Discordant
2 Venom Crawlers
1 Soul Grinder
As far as the rest, I was thinking Red Corsairs with
3x 5 CSM with rotor cannon- I was thinking of bumping one unit to 15 and having 2 smaller squads of 5
1 unit of havocs with lascannons
1 unit of 3 oblits
2 Greater Possessed. I really like these guys running alongside the daemon engines as they can buff the venom crawlers (and their weapons would make use of the +1 str) I was thinking I would add maybe 2 more.
Then I am kind stuck, I was thinking of adding in a jump pack lord (or sorcerer) and a few units of raptors equipped with plasmaguns.
So can you take a battalion, then use units within that battalion to make a devastation battery? Or are the units that form the devastation battery inclusive?
For that matter, can you take 2 specialist detachments, ie can I have my Soulforged Pack and a Devastation Batter? How many total detachments can you have in an army, including your specialist detachments at 2k?
Any advice is appreciated.
First off, welcome to the darkness. It only costs your soul (no refunds!).
It can get complicated, yes. But if you were able to keep abreast of the rules in previous editions, you'll find it hasn't really become more difficult.
For the stratagems, yes simply having the keywords required by the stratagem is enough.
Your spearhead detachment as is looks fun, but it doesn't meet the matched play requirements - you need all units to share a faction keyword but CHAOS alone doesn't count. It needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or DAEMONS. Perhaps you can swap the Soul Grinder for a Defiler?
Your Red Corsairs would already make a battalion detachment as is, provided you add two HQ choices. Together with your spearhead, you'd get 12 command points, which is pretty decent. As to HQs, a Daemon Prince or a Chaos Lord with jump pack to run with the daemon engines for those re-roll 1s would be good and maybe a Sorcerer for some buffs?
Specialist detachments aren't a separate thing. You pick one of your army's detachments, spend 1 CP and turn that detachment into specialists. For example, your spearhead could be turned into a Soulforged Pack for 1 CP to give all the DAEMON ENGINE units the keyword SOULFORGED PACK. That way, you can use the corresponding strategems on them (but I guess, you understood that already). But you can't also make the detachment a different kind of specialists - you choose one type and that's what that detachment becomes. If you want more specialists, you need to spend 1 CP on a different detachment.
The Greater Possessed are sweet, I totally love them. Remember though that they need to share the same <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS> keywords with the daemons you want them to buff.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Snugiraffe wrote: Your spearhead detachment as is looks fun, but it doesn't meet the matched play requirements - you need all units to share a faction keyword but CHAOS alone doesn't count. It needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or DAEMONS. Perhaps you can swap the Soul Grinder for a Defiler?
Just a quick note on something I was misunderstanding until a couple of days ago too.
If you give all the csm units the same mark of chaos as the soulgrunder you could field them in a Khorne, Nurgle, Slanesh or Tzeentch detachment.
Snugiraffe,
Thanks for the info, I'm sorry, I meant Defiler not Soul Grinder, so that detachment should be fine.
What do you think of raptors?
I imagine those 5 demon engines, jump pack lord and Greater Possessed running at an opponent and supporting them with the Oblits, Havocs, and Raptors. Meanwhile the marines take the objectives and the 15 man blob makes for centerfield and double taps their bolters.
Would Black Legion be better than Red Corsairs? Also if I am going with Red Corsairs how is Huron? What do folks think of the Lord of Skulls?
Finally, a question on Daemonic Ritual. Lets say I want to summon a unit of bloodletters. Their power rating is 4. I roll 3 dice- the odds are VERY good that I roll over a 4. Do I need to pay for these bloodletters when I make my 2k army list? I assume yes because it seems like all 5 of my characters could summon every turn and although some may end up taking mortal wounds the amount of daemons you could put on the board would outweight the cost of the characters. Could someone please clarify how this works?
Thanks
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