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Made in us
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor






tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 09:21:16


 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 slave.entity wrote:
Phoenix lords seem like they should be a lot more powerful than they actually are on the tabletop. Not primarch-level sure, but at least better than some random space marine captain, right?

yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Cronch wrote:
yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was


Zip up man, your bias is showing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 09:24:15


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Even ignoring the fluff, Jain Zar as a little missile to take out small units or Support characters isn’t half as good as, say, an Eversor, who is a third cheaper and comes with much better Strat support, better survivability, infinitely better charge from reserves, etc...

It just doesn’t add up.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Cronch wrote:
yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was


Zip up man, your bias is showing.


He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Should Jain Zar or Karandras be better at swinging a sharp stick than Russ?

I'm sure they will be...

...in the Eldar codex, as is tradition in those chainsword measuring lore contests.

As an aside, how much MORE can you learn about combat after a hundred years of practice? Seriously, even ignoring the whole Eldar decline thing, the Lords were paragons of their Path during their first life. How much can a random Exarch add to that pot?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 10:03:28


 
   
Made in gb
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit



Ottawa

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
Cronch wrote:
yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was


Zip up man, your bias is showing.


He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.


Only if you think thousands of years of combat experience by pansy elves is worth anything.

To me that's actually a detriment. They're already handicapped by being stinkin' space elves. Now they have thousands of years of bad habits ingrained in them psychically? Blimey, they're doomed.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Fayric wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.


100% this.

Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?

Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)

If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




Kdash wrote:
 Fayric wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.


100% this.

Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?

Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)

If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.


So the Drukhari part of the set is worth nothing? That calculation is just wrong.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Cinderspirit wrote:
Kdash wrote:
 Fayric wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.


100% this.

Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?

Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)

If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.


So the Drukhari part of the set is worth nothing? That calculation is just wrong.


To me, the Drukhari side of things is worthless yes, as I’ll never use it and likely leave it sat on the sprue in the box, gathering dust. The point is not about whether or not part of the box is “worthless”, but, whether or not you feel like you are getting true value for money.

It’s a question of what do you want this box for. If you want it because it gives you the new models straight away, then go for it. Likewise if you want it for the start of a Craftworld, Drukhari and/or Ynnari force (though I’m guessing that wouldn’t work too well from a fluff pov as they are trying to kill each other in this campaign…)

But, if you only want it for the new models, then, waiting and buying them will save you a significant amount of cash and you’d be able to get more. Hell, you can get Jain and 30 Banshees currently for £165. You’re better off doing that if you want to run Banshees, than to buy this box and only get 5, because as others have said, 5 is completely pointless.

Likewise, if you only want the Craftworlds stuff and will sell the Drukhari stuff, then, I guess you have to weigh up the options of how much you think you’ll be able to sell the models for in what could be a relatively flooded market. Sure you’ll save some money overall after selling half the box, but, whether it’ll be enough after all the hassle and additional costs, that’ll be 100% up to the person going down that route.

If you need and want all the models in this box, then it is a good deal. If you only want the new models and for some reason can’t wait for them to be released individually, then it is a good deal.
However, if you only want the new models and there is no reason why you can’t wait a few months, then I’d consider you insane for considering to buy this (or have too much spare cash).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 10:32:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Cinderspirit wrote:
Kdash wrote:
 Fayric wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.


100% this.

Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?

Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)

If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.


So the Drukhari part of the set is worth nothing? That calculation is just wrong.


Yes to an elder player the Drukhari part of the set is worthless, it mostly has no resale value either which is why GW put them in there in the 1st place.

To be brutally honest even the elder half is pretty worthless to an elder player 5 new models that are pointless as a unit of 5 and 1 sub par new/old hq are underwhelming and the rest is models older than most players that barely fit together and are pretty crap in game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 10:47:11


Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
kingheff wrote:
I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.



To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


It's the precedence that a new £140 box represents, a lot of us can scrimp and save to get £100 together but £140 is taking the and should not become the new norm and if we accept it it will.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 10:47:39


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




BlackKnight wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


It's the precedence that a new £140 box represents, a lot of us can scrimp and save to get £100 together but £140 is taking the and should not become the new norm and if we accept it it will.


It's the two special characters pushing it up. Now, whether they were included to justify a premeditated price hike or not is another story. Ultimately it is what it is. I would ask that people voice their actual complaints though. If you are bothered that you can't get Jain Zar outside of an expensive box set at the moment, then moan about that. Complaining about the price of a discounted box is rather asinine.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




kingheff wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
kingheff wrote:
I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.



To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.


The mathhammer figures I posted are simply what will the average result of several hundred rounds in the duel will give you. I, and everyone else (hopefully), can fully accept that there will be extremes on both sides of the averages. Maybe the results of the duel were honest and did happen, all we can do is either take it at face value or come to our own conclusions based on reasonable expectation.

Yes they moved 2 models 12”s towards each other and made the 1-4” charge once and the 5” charge twice, but, it’s hardly a “real world” test to showcase their “power” on the tabletop.

At the end of the day, it’s all down to the dice. For every single time Jain instantly kills Drazhar there will be significantly more times where she does not. This does not matter in normal games, but, it has to be considered when playing competitive games (but not to the exclusion of everything else). On the flip side, Drazhar is going to kill Jain-Zar in one round, something like 3 times as often on the turn he charges and has a better chance of winning over 2 rounds (even fighting last both times) than Jain has of winning.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






 His Master's Voice wrote:
Should Jain Zar or Karandras be better at swinging a sharp stick than Russ?

I'm sure they will be...

...in the Eldar codex, as is tradition in those chainsword measuring lore contests.

As an aside, how much MORE can you learn about combat after a hundred years of practice? Seriously, even ignoring the whole Eldar decline thing, the Lords were paragons of their Path during their first life. How much can a random Exarch add to that pot?


Experience against new types of foe.

Consider Tyranids and how quickly they evolve. Consider Orks, and how utterly barmy they are. The Imperium fields lots of different armed forces - and fighting Astra Militarum Regiment A does not mean you're equipped to tackle Astra Militarum Regiment B. Primaris are something new, and tougher than previous Marines.

When someone new dons the Phoenix Armour, all that knowledge isn't so much passed on - as simply known. It's not studying a book or a pictcast etc. It's just there - part of you. That's pretty handy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's also other, secondary skills.

The Phoenix Lords started on the Path of the Warrior. So they've likely never studied anything else with such commitment.

Add in one that followed say, Path of the Sculptor or Builder? Phoenix Lord is now better versed in spotting structural weakpoints.

Path of Xenobiology? Where best to place one's blows.

All sorts of experiences are added in, and in some small way help to make them a better warrior.

Consider. We take a combat veteran. They're very, very good at their job. We then grant them the lifetime knowledge of a retiring psychologist. Your highly skilled warrior now has a better idea of how to break the enemy's spirit - making victory even easier.

Loads of seemingly innocuous stuff can help a fighter to improve.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 11:52:25


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Kdash wrote:
kingheff wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
kingheff wrote:
I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.



To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.


The mathhammer figures I posted are simply what will the average result of several hundred rounds in the duel will give you. I, and everyone else (hopefully), can fully accept that there will be extremes on both sides of the averages. Maybe the results of the duel were honest and did happen, all we can do is either take it at face value or come to our own conclusions based on reasonable expectation.

Yes they moved 2 models 12”s towards each other and made the 1-4” charge once and the 5” charge twice, but, it’s hardly a “real world” test to showcase their “power” on the tabletop.

At the end of the day, it’s all down to the dice. For every single time Jain instantly kills Drazhar there will be significantly more times where she does not. This does not matter in normal games, but, it has to be considered when playing competitive games (but not to the exclusion of everything else). On the flip side, Drazhar is going to kill Jain-Zar in one round, something like 3 times as often on the turn he charges and has a better chance of winning over 2 rounds (even fighting last both times) than Jain has of winning.


Sorry, didn't mean you either! I haven't read all the posts and certainly wasn't responding to yours.
But I have no doubt that drazhar will win that fight more often than not.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




kingheff wrote:
Kdash wrote:
kingheff wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
kingheff wrote:
I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.



To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.


The mathhammer figures I posted are simply what will the average result of several hundred rounds in the duel will give you. I, and everyone else (hopefully), can fully accept that there will be extremes on both sides of the averages. Maybe the results of the duel were honest and did happen, all we can do is either take it at face value or come to our own conclusions based on reasonable expectation.

Yes they moved 2 models 12”s towards each other and made the 1-4” charge once and the 5” charge twice, but, it’s hardly a “real world” test to showcase their “power” on the tabletop.

At the end of the day, it’s all down to the dice. For every single time Jain instantly kills Drazhar there will be significantly more times where she does not. This does not matter in normal games, but, it has to be considered when playing competitive games (but not to the exclusion of everything else). On the flip side, Drazhar is going to kill Jain-Zar in one round, something like 3 times as often on the turn he charges and has a better chance of winning over 2 rounds (even fighting last both times) than Jain has of winning.


Sorry, didn't mean you either! I haven't read all the posts and certainly wasn't responding to yours.
But I have no doubt that drazhar will win that fight more often than not.


No worries! I think my post was the main one on the past few pages about the duel mathammer result. Didn’t take it as an attack either, I just wanted to further expand on my reasoning and use of the math
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


30% off on 100% worthless units no one has used in 10 years is still a 70% loss. Its the typical fallacy people apply to "sales" of something you never needed to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 13:22:15


Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





We should get some online reviews tomorrow I expect that will shed more light on the content. I haven't seen anything yet, as an Eldar player, that gets me excited for the new models. The Phoenix Rising book? For sure, but I don't get these books (vigilus etc) for unit rules, I get them for the fluff, missions, narrative games etc.

I would have picked up the box if the pricepoint was reasonable and it didn't include mostly worthless units (I have 2 falcons and 3 Vypers on sprues that I got for extremely cheap a few years ago), plus the hellions which are simply trash. I don't mind the venom or Scourges but it still puts the box on a no-buy list. I want jain Zar and the banshees, but I'm content to wait rather than pay so much for what I don't need, or in any likelihood, will ever need.
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger




Scotland

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 DivineVisitor wrote:
I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.


Initially no, later you can bet yes.

Exactly. Just exercise a little bit of patience




Patience? It could be ages before they are sold separately. Nah, think I'll just buy the the only two models I want from an expensive box set via eBay.

If the box set had just the Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar then I would go for it.

Space Wolves - Alpha Legion - Biel-Tan - Reikland - Lizardmen of Hexoatl - Slaaneshi Daemons
 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes




 DivineVisitor wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 DivineVisitor wrote:
I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.


Initially no, later you can bet yes.

Exactly. Just exercise a little bit of patience




Patience? It could be ages before they are sold separately. Nah, think I'll just buy the the only two models I want from an expensive box set via eBay.

If the box set had just the Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar then I would go for it.


Be prepared to be scalped slightly for the pleasure of buying it early via Ebay.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






 His Master's Voice wrote:
Should Jain Zar or Karandras be better at swinging a sharp stick than Russ?

I'm sure they will be...

...in the Eldar codex, as is tradition in those chainsword measuring lore contests.

As an aside, how much MORE can you learn about combat after a hundred years of practice? Seriously, even ignoring the whole Eldar decline thing, the Lords were paragons of their Path during their first life. How much can a random Exarch add to that pot?


Generally you decline with age after a certain point . Also, there's a saying about too many cooks. It's hilarious to think of the phoenix lords as schizophrenic lunatics who's internal voices are constantly arguing over which strike to apply next in combat

   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger




Scotland

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
Cronch wrote:
yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was


Zip up man, your bias is showing.


He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.


It's not just about experience though, sure the Phoenix Lords are powerful but they aren't and shouldn't really be on Primarch level, Primarchs are practically demi-gods grown from the seed of The Emperor. Only the Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and C'tan should be hanging with them.

Phoneix Lords should be around Chapter Master+ level.

Space Wolves - Alpha Legion - Biel-Tan - Reikland - Lizardmen of Hexoatl - Slaaneshi Daemons
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ah, so demi-gods can only be matched by actual gods of other races, I see. Man, GW should just delete Xenos since they can't compete with Humanity
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






tneva82 wrote:
 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot


Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some


Not even close to a fair comparison though. More like.

*Longtime consumer enters AutoZone in search of muffler because he has heard of discounts.*

Consumer: "Hey can I get a new muffler, mine is garbage"
Sale Rep: "Sure we are having a sale on a new car that has one of those!"
Consumer: "I just need the muffler, can I just buy one at normal price?"
Sales Rep: "Not now!"
Consumer: "When?"
Sales Rep: "I can't tell you that, just be sure the come back and check often!"
Consumer "Go Yourself!"





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
Ah, so demi-gods can only be matched by actual gods of other races, I see. Man, GW should just delete Xenos since they can't compete with Humanity


I am not sure you understand what the word Avatar means. All those examples are not actual gods.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 14:03:52


   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




 DivineVisitor wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
Cronch wrote:
yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was


Zip up man, your bias is showing.


He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.


It's not just about experience though, sure the Phoenix Lords are powerful but they aren't and shouldn't really be on Primarch level, Primarchs are practically demi-gods grown from the seed of The Emperor. Only the Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and C'tan should be hanging with them.

Phoneix Lords should be around Chapter Master+ level.
Sure, it's not just about experience. Phoenix Lords are practically demi-gods, unkillable spirits ascended through the forge of battle to be perfect weapons. The Primarchs are the spawn of a demi-god and are close to being able to claim that title in their own right so they should just about be capable of getting to phoenix lord level, eventually, if they work hard. They are still human at base, though and so lacking in the curse/gift of focus that the Eldar Phoenix lords have.

GW Have a lot of love for the marines and have been bigging up the Primarchs for ages, but its perfectly reasonable to have a PL on their level.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I am not sure you understand what the word Avatar means. All those examples are not actual gods.

According to normal, real-world definition, an avatar is physical representation or incarnation of a god. Not a demi-god, not a product of god, a god encased in physical shell. So avatar of Khaine, by that definition, should be more powerful than anything short of actual warp deity like chaos gods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 14:25:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

Cronch wrote:
I am not sure you understand what the word Avatar means. All those examples are not actual gods.

According to normal, real-world definition, an avatar is physical representation or incarnation of a god. Not a demi-god, not a product of god, a god encased in physical shell. So avatar of Khaine, by that definition, should be more powerful than anything short of actual warp deity like chaos gods.


Sure that makes sense if you have no understanding of the what the Avatar of Khaine is. It's not the avatar of a single god, it's a dead god that was shattered into many smaller less powerful pieces. The Primarchs *are* a result of the chaos gods. In game they can't be unstoppable, but generally speaking they were the strongest beings in the mortal universe next to the Emperor. Phoenix Lords are extremely powerful as well and aren't really entirely living.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 14:32:31


Keeper of the DomBox
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Bla even normal captain on bike is better than phoenix lord, faster, toughter, better weapon choices can get 3++..
It`s funny how GW give marines broken rules regardless of them having model or not and are unwilling to give something extra to the xenos even on new release.
   
 
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