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Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place

No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.

No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.

"Codex CSM isn't meant for Renegades because it's not meant for renegades"?

No reason an Alaitoc force would have Eldred or Yriel. No reason a Wych Cult would have an Archon. But a chapter falling to Chaos having a Sorcerer or demon-worshiping leader/techmarine is (for some reason) completely impossible so clearly a chaos-worshiping Marine force isn't Chaos Marines?

Either way, maybe take it to general. No idea why that's being discussed in news and rumors during an eldar release.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Average is average, there is also deviation. Jain has 4+ save against his attacks, basically an extra save, especially against 4 Damage, and she already survives. Not to mention she can kill Drazhar in-between 2 activations and fights first in 2d round.

I have literally failed 16 4+ rollsat once. What happened in the article is hardly impossible.

People are looking at it in too complex light. It's just putting the two models fight against each other and roll a dice. Nothing more than that. No need to look for deeper meaning there when there isn't any.

So despite the giant laundry list of special rules attached to these two... meh? Not a lot to get excited about.


---
The 'duel' on the other hand is meaningless. Its essentially an empty field mathhammer exercise (the kind of thing people complain about not being like a real game of 40k), except without the math and anecdotes instead.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place

No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.

No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.

"Codex CSM isn't meant for Renegades because it's not meant for renegades"?

No reason an Alaitoc force would have Eldred or Yriel. No reason a Wych Cult would have an Archon. But a chapter falling to Chaos having a Sorcerer or demon-worshiping leader/techmarine is (for some reason) completely impossible so clearly a chaos-worshiping Marine force isn't Chaos Marines?

Either way, maybe take it to general. No idea why that's being discussed in news and rumors during an eldar release.

It was in response to the rumour about chaos marine updates I psychic awakening 2 and that any renegades are now left with sigjifanctly less stuff than the legions in theory, simply for no reason.

Are there full rules and points for them somewhere leaked that I've missed?

Voss wrote:
So despite the giant laundry list of special rules ... meh? Not a lot to get excited about.

8th in a nutshell?

If you're going to be blunt, it'd be more like "40K in a nutshell". There's never been a stunning or elegant or amazing ruleset applied to the game - it's always been about the models. So if you like the new models, that's something to get excited about I s'pose.

Given that today's article doesn't have anything about checking back tomorrow or later in the week, is this all we should expect in terms of rules previews? This is starting to feel very flimsy, especially for a release that got hyped up for over a month...

Dudeface wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
From Kikasstout, the french rumor monger.

About Chaos Space Marines :

For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).

Well, it was nice for the renegades to have something for a little while before being put to the back of the bus again.

TS and DG kept a seat open for them.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place

No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.

No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.

"Codex CSM isn't meant for Renegades because it's not meant for renegades"?

No reason an Alaitoc force would have Eldred or Yriel. No reason a Wych Cult would have an Archon. But a chapter falling to Chaos having a Sorcerer or demon-worshiping leader/techmarine is (for some reason) completely impossible so clearly a chaos-worshiping Marine force isn't Chaos Marines?

Either way, maybe take it to general. No idea why that's being discussed in news and rumors during an eldar release.

Missing Technology and units > Your Daemon Fantasy
Renegades needs to be covered in the standard Marine codex, full stop. I'll even make a thread for it.

Regarding today's preview, I can't help but think that this could have replaced the individual Drazhar and Jain Zar previews. Thus freeing up previews for actual content. You'd almost think there wasn't much content to preview...

This thought isn't helped by today's preview for Jain Zar, where there was so little to showcase that they had to resort to "previewing" abilities she already had.

That aside, I'll admit I'm not an Eldar player but even if I was I still doubt I'd be using Jain Zar. She has some things going for her - her weapon is decent, she ignores Overwatch, and she's actually fast. Not fast as in 'all of 1" faster than a Space marine' but actually fast (a rarity for a non-flying infantry model).

Unfortunately, unless they've left out some rules, she only has 4 attacks and no invulnerable save. Meh.

As for Drazhar, on the one hand he seems actually decent(ish) now. On the other hand, I don't want to have to take a 120pt special character just to make Incubi worth a damn, which definitely seems to be the direction we're headed.

Also, he seems best suited to Ynnari but last I checked they couldn't take any special characters other than their own. I wonder if this has changed?

 Burnage wrote:
Given that today's article doesn't have anything about checking back tomorrow or later in the week, is this all we should expect in terms of rules previews? This is starting to feel very flimsy, especially for a release that got hyped up for over a month...

No, no, clearly an expansion that has had to resort to literally previewing the same rules and models multiple times is just oozing with content.

But the box set has two mighty armies comprising of 25 miniatures!!!

I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding today's preview, I can't help but think that this could have replaced the individual Drazhar and Jain Zar previews. Thus freeing up previews for actual content. You'd almost think there wasn't much content to preview...

This thought isn't helped by today's preview for Jain Zar, where there was so little to showcase that they had to resort to "previewing" abilities she already had.

That aside, I'll admit I'm not an Eldar player but even if I was I still doubt I'd be using Jain Zar. She has some things going for her - her weapon is decent, she ignores Overwatch, and she's actually fast. Not fast as in 'all of 1" faster than a Space marine' but actually fast (a rarity for a non-flying infantry model).

Unfortunately, unless they've left out some rules, she only has 4 attacks and no invulnerable save. Meh.

As for Drazhar, on the one hand he seems actually decent(ish) now. On the other hand, I don't want to have to take a 120pt special character just to make Incubi worth a damn, which definitely seems to be the direction we're headed.

Also, he seems best suited to Ynnari but last I checked they couldn't take any special characters other than their own. I wonder if this has changed?

 Burnage wrote:
Given that today's article doesn't have anything about checking back tomorrow or later in the week, is this all we should expect in terms of rules previews? This is starting to feel very flimsy, especially for a release that got hyped up for over a month...

No, no, clearly an expansion that has had to resort to literally previewing the same rules and models multiple times is just oozing with content.

Yeah they were trying very hard to hype up this minor release. Did 2 characters and 2 units really need almost two months of teasers and previews?

No doubt they have other aspect and DE designs tucked away. But I guess a big release is less lucrative than a drip-feed of boxes and events over a couple of years...

 DivineVisitor wrote:
I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.

Initially no, later you can bet yes.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.

If you can hold your breath for 3-6+ months. GW is very inconsistent with this stuff...

And yeah, I bet the focus is going to shift over to hyping up the Ossiarch Bonereapers. They've got to fit those and Imperial Fists + Salamanders into this month and we're already 1/3rd of the way through the month, so... yeah. Expect a lot of really rushed hype.

tneva82 wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.

Initially no, later you can bet yes.

Exactly. Just exercise a little bit of patience

Yep. Wrath and Rapture (December) had the new stuff in March for Khorne and April for Slaanesh, if the models came out the same time as the AoS battletomes.
I'd expect a similar outcome for space elfs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:


Yeah they were trying very hard to hype up this minor release. Did 2 characters and 2 units really need almost two months of teasers and previews?

No doubt they have other aspect and DE designs tucked away. But I guess a big release is less lucrative than a drip-feed of boxes and events over a couple of years...

The truly sad thing is the models don't even matter that much. They're aren't great choices now, and don't look to be an more amazing once the book comes out- they'll still be over shadowed internally and externally.
The big thing will be the new traits and strategems and if new crazy nonsense was essentially overlooked in the margin notes.

As models they basically improved by... no longer being finecast and... presumably greater availability on actual shelves.
And I guess giant honking base decorations if you're into that sort of thing.

useally you get the multipart kit alone within 6 months or less, Although Infiltrators, assuming they're out in 2 weeks or so would mean a 9 month turn around, but Marines are in an odd place thanks to the supplements

BrianDavion wrote:
useally you get the multipart kit alone within 6 months or less, Although Infiltrators, assuming they're out in 2 weeks or so would mean a 9 month turn around, but Marines are in an odd place thanks to the supplements

Marines are in an odd place because they are drowning in new releases and content. So much so that even GW can’t keep up. Must be tough having so many new releases that sometimes you have to wait longer than normal for an individual unit release.

Voss has hit the nail on the head above - now we see what rules, stratagems and this psychic tree have in store. There is little noise from FLG and the like which leads me to believe that rules-wise this won’t compete in anyway with the new Marines, but we’ll see.

So, something that made me a little more disappointed, was listening to the FLG Signals stream last night. From what was said, the general indication is that there will be no points changes in this box set or the PA book.

point changes are for CA19, why would they do anything other than narrative for this very narrative event? They changed rules and stats for JZ & drazhar.

not everything revolves around what costs what in screw over your opponent lists.

What the hell is GWs insistence on not giving Phoenix lords invulnerable saves? It's like their refusal to increase catapult ranges.

Marines can field generic commanders with 2+/3++, hell even Eldar themselves have an invulnerable save on ALL their HQ choices, except when it comes to Phoenix lords.

WTF

Hellebore wrote:
What the hell is GWs insistence on not giving Phoenix lords invulnerable saves? It's like their refusal to increase catapult ranges.

Marines can field generic commanders with 2+/3++, hell even Eldar themselves have an invulnerable save on ALL their HQ choices, except when it comes to Phoenix lords.

WTF

It might be an option to pick from the Aspect list for Jain Zar? I'm assuming she can pick from the list, given she's the Phoenix Lord and all.

But yea, it's insane, the same way no Ork HQ has an invulnerable without taking a relic or a KFF that only works against ranged attacks.

Phoenix lords seem like they should be a lot more powerful than they actually are on the tabletop. Not primarch-level sure, but at least better than some random space marine captain, right?

I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously. I don't think announcing any kind of winner before a narrative campaign between the two is exactly helpful.
"Yeah, drazhar stomped Jain zar 3-0, can you get a win for the phoenix lord?"

kingheff wrote:
I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.

And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.

Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot

 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot

Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some

tneva82 wrote:

 Motograter wrote:
Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot

Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"

Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some

Not gonna lie, that point would be valid in most other contexts, in this case you're paying through the nose for 12 new models and a bunch of models most people don't want, discount or none.