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I think in an ideal scenario you'd be able to quickly move and test close contacts of anyone who came up positive, and thus get ahead of the spread. However, with the limited test availability and long turn around time for results most places, that's obviously really difficult - as by the time you could zero in on a possible transmission vector, the delay means it would be much harder to contain...

note the 1 in 100 tested statement I made 2 posts ago reflected data gathered a few days ago, not today. It might be much different in this most fluid of situations.

Feedback on the mask setup I made -- a small clip makes taking on and off the overmask (a bandana) very quick and easy, compared to tying it. The n95 undermask and cheap swimmers goggles combination quickly gets annoying, but as I intend it to be used for only things like hopping into the grocery store to grab a few items, it feels VERY safe wearing it. Handwashing is still on the menu, of course.

Perhaps this weekend I will get aroudn to trying to make the other bandana into a hepa filtered proper N100 mask setup -- but realistically, that's a pocket gas mask (except against nerve agents or stuff like chlorine gas) ... likely overkill against suspended droplets.

One line summary? There are a number of ways to make very effective masks detailed online that any of us can do as a crafting project -- and I believe if we turned our collective craftiness to it, we could probably make enouhg for all our friends and loved ones to have at least ONE mask to use shopping. Perhaps this is not the week to focus on 40k??

Nothing new to report

Yes DoD shipped a 100K body bags

Also some idiot tried to ram the Mercy with a locomotive.

There are a number of ways to make very effective masks detailed online that any of us can do as a crafting project -- and I believe if we turned our collective craftiness to it, we could probably make enouhg for all our friends and loved ones to have at least ONE mask to use shopping. Perhaps this is not the week to focus on 40k??

Yes, because nothing would make me feel safer than wearing a goggles/bandana mask made by someone who can't assemble a Rhino without leaving panel gaps you post a coin through.

Perhaps there's a reason why the various organisations aren't putting out the call for PPE made at the dining room table with love, PVA glue and a positive attitude?

nfe wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
And Sunetra Gupta has no evidence for this optimistic theory.

That would be why the article's title is "A New Study Suggests...".

As of yet they've done no testing. This is a serious issue, and choosing to ignore evidence from reputable bodies, like the WHO, which I believe you've classed as a 'terrorist organization' earlier in this thread while championing theories that 'it's not so bad' which have done no testing is just irresponsible.

Technically, I said IF there are less than 50,000 deaths worldwide, the WHO should be considered a terrorist organization on behalf of the significant amount of economic and social damage to multiple countries done on behalf of them presenting this disease as a pandemic that will kill millions. Obviously, if they are right and the damage does turn out to be that bad, the fact that we'll see a recession with unemployment higher than the Great Depression might be a little more justified.

When deaths blitz past 50k in the next week or two, what's your plan to move these goalposts?

It took 6 days.

It sometimes really upsets me how companies can screw over workers.
While my field is labeled essential, my company has decided NOT to send us out to other peoples houses and perform our job duty.
But a neighbor receives the same service from another company, and i chatted up that employee and she said her company threatened to fire all employees who call in sick during this time.
It really is gakky, and my company is out here trying to find ways for us to do our job via Telehealth

British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.

 Jihadin wrote:
Nothing new to report

Yes DoD shipped a 100K body bags

Also some idiot tried to ram the Mercy with a locomotive.

Yeah, I read that story.

I was like "Why?"

I mean, first off, no way in hell could that train have ever actually hit the ship. And two, what would that have accomplished other than putting a dent in the side and maybe scuttling it in very shallow water, which would just make it immobile and not really make it sink.

haha thats crazy.

nfe wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
And Sunetra Gupta has no evidence for this optimistic theory.

That would be why the article's title is "A New Study Suggests...".

As of yet they've done no testing. This is a serious issue, and choosing to ignore evidence from reputable bodies, like the WHO, which I believe you've classed as a 'terrorist organization' earlier in this thread while championing theories that 'it's not so bad' which have done no testing is just irresponsible.

Technically, I said IF there are less than 50,000 deaths worldwide, the WHO should be considered a terrorist organization on behalf of the significant amount of economic and social damage to multiple countries done on behalf of them presenting this disease as a pandemic that will kill millions. Obviously, if they are right and the damage does turn out to be that bad, the fact that we'll see a recession with unemployment higher than the Great Depression might be a little more justified.

When deaths blitz past 50k in the next week or two, what's your plan to move these goalposts?

It took 6 days.

Aged Like fine wine didn't it?

Then my comment is surely not intended for the people who don't want it, and in any case not for you, friend. Please, by all means, don't wear a mask!

I wont be wearing a mask unless mandated. I dont think they actually do anything in most public spaces, save making you look like a fool, and should be saved for those who need them in the health sector.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Then my comment is surely not intended for the people who don't want it, and in any case not for you, friend. Please, by all means, don't wear a mask!

Nothing against make do ingenuity, but selfmade maks are imo iffy quite a bit for understandable reasons.

Masks are for the greater good.
THE GREATER GOOD. (Ah, Hot Fuzz, reference, is there no late night you can't improve?)

And in the US, there are a number of municipalities and hospital systems calling for homemade surgical masks already, and some forcing their staffs to make the things out of spare cloth while on the clock.

In a day or so, the CDC here is supposed to put out new guidelines about the wider use of masks, having been officially asked to rewrite what they wrote so far by the Surgeon General of the United States (their boss, capital B) "in light of new information and data." (source https://www.cnet.com/how-to/homemade-face-masks-and-coronavirus-new-cdc-guidelines-expected-and-everything-to-know/ )

We will need to find 300,000,000 million masks MORE.

So yeah, a simple bandana overmask, n95 innermask (or n100 filter material), goggles, is a good combination if you either already have an n95 (I bnought mine in roughly 2005, in case of plague) and / or can create an n100 filter out of common materials (I am not yet utterly convinced by the online research into the matter, and thus have not put it together yet, but its mostly a matter of aesthetics and such, hepa filtration being a well known technology. I thought and still think that hepa filters do poorly when bent and flexed, so I don't preclude the possibility of making a rigid mask internal structure to span the stuff over. That's a full on weekend project though, compared to just slapping a bandana over my existing mask.) The bandana has a specific role to play, it breaks up any sneeze or aerosolized cough going OUT of the inner mask, its not per se a shield for the user against the virus. It does, however, have the added benefit of keeping your hands off of your own mask and keeping other methods of gross contamination fo the inner mask at bay.



\

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.

Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time

With 1100 or so deaths in a day in america they are approaching daily rate of primary killer(heart attack) daily range. At least new york got some supplies courtesy of putin but doubtful those last particularly long there.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52145230

Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,

but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it

I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference

dalezzz wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.

Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time

Doesn't matter. Prosecute the crimes of speeding and fly tipping, don't infringe on law abiding citizens liberties (unnecessarily)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
It sometimes really upsets me how companies can screw over workers.
While my field is labeled essential, my company has decided NOT to send us out to other peoples houses and perform our job duty.
But a neighbor receives the same service from another company, and i chatted up that employee and she said her company threatened to fire all employees who call in sick during this time.
It really is gakky, and my company is out here trying to find ways for us to do our job via Telehealth

Capitalism gonna capitalism. Even at the height of the pandemic, Germany would still prefer to let in 80.000 slavs to pick their strawberries for peanuts than pay a wage that would be acceptable to locals.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52145230

Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,

but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it

I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference

Anyone seen any articles that outline exactly what happened? I've only seen fragments in passing - he was denied testing kits, he was told he had to keep everyone on-board to be combat-ready, etc.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52145230

Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,

but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it

I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference

Lol. I'm hardly surprised that he got fired for doing the right thing. Ah well.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

dalezzz wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.

Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time

Doesn't matter. Prosecute the crimes of speeding and fly tipping, don't infringe on law abiding citizens liberties (unnecessarily)

I see this as the reason the police have struggled to interpret what the Govt is actually directing. I have to say I was surprised at his turnabout on the subject, but all that does is make it harder for the police to do any job with any credibility.
Essentially he's asking them to restrict people's movements, but then changing the parameters so that they get blamed for being over zealous or not applying "common sense".
At times like this, good leadership requires clear direction and unfortunately we don't seem to be getting that.

A temporary restriction on normal liberties is perfectly acceptable in order to rationalise and prioritise limited resources. As military personnel, we're used to it anyway. I fail to understand people who are railing against such minor, temporary inconveniences.
If someone in the UK is only now noticing and complaining, they're too late to the party. For example, the UK already has almost total cctv surveillance and the Govt exercises a level of control over the popular narrative via a compliant media that would make Orwell evaporate in horror.

so this is from Ocado



which does rather raise the issue about the general practicalities/point of delivering water in a bottle by vans regularly anyway.

I guess in an ideal world we could have some form of tubular network which could, perhaps, deliver water directly into people's houses and cut out the need for this completely.

One appreciates that in certain areas or houses -- especially older houses -- there will be issues, bu that's why we have filters and the like.

6,000 extra deliveries a week though ?!

nfe wrote:

nfe wrote:
When deaths blitz past 50k in the next week or two, what's your plan to move these goalposts?

It took 6 days.

Yup, we're at 1.050.000+ infected now and 60.000+ deaths. I wonder what next goalpost will be? Death by electricity? Death by cars?

Also, in slightly more positive news, 95% of Brazil is now refusing to listen to chief denier Bolsonaro and actually started employing countermeasures:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/brazil-bolsonaro-ignored-by-state-governors-amid-anger-at-handling-of-covid-19-crisis

The bad news in that is the remaining 5% are rural provinces with large indigenous populations, and there are first confirmed native cases:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/02/brazil-confirms-first-indigenous-case-of-coronavirus-in-amazon

Hopefully the tribes will weather this OK and the history won't repeat itself this time...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Capitalism gonna capitalism. Even at the height of the pandemic, Germany would still prefer to let in 80.000 slavs to pick their strawberries for peanuts than pay a wage that would be acceptable to locals.

Yup, let's blame them dirty foreigners, never mind Germany has actually more cases than all Slavic countries combined, and in any case, a worker on rural farm is not going to infect anyone, and you can even make an argument he/she will be bigger threat to their own country upon returning than to Germany on arrival.

You'd maybe have a point if there was a reason why Polish or Czech worker traveling 10 km to farm in eastern Germany was somehow more dangerous than Ruhr German freely traveling 1100+ km to Baltic beach, but there isn't any. In fact, multiple experts made a point it would make far more sense to have Euroregion case by case response to pandemic by pooling resources together than dumb knee jerk state based gleichschalten (which in almost all cases were too big and unwieldy, applying the same laws to heavily hit areas and disease-free zones).

There are multiple valid reasons to criticize capitalism, but movement of people and work in small region arbitrarily divided by border despite people in it having more in common with each other than with people on the other end of 'their' country isn't one of them.

 r_squared wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

dalezzz wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.

Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time

Doesn't matter. Prosecute the crimes of speeding and fly tipping, don't infringe on law abiding citizens liberties (unnecessarily)

I see this as the reason the police have struggled to interpret what the Govt is actually directing. I have to say I was surprised at his turnabout on the subject, but all that does is make it harder for the police to do any job with any credibility.
Essentially he's asking them to restrict people's movements, but then changing the parameters so that they get blamed for being over zealous or not applying "common sense".
At times like this, good leadership requires clear direction and unfortunately we don't seem to be getting that.

A temporary restriction on normal liberties is perfectly acceptable in order to rationalise and prioritise limited resources. As military personnel, we're used to it anyway. I fail to understand people who are railing against such minor, temporary inconveniences.
If someone in the UK is only now noticing and complaining, they're too late to the party. For example, the UK already has almost total cctv surveillance and the Govt exercises a level of control over the popular narrative via a compliant media that would make Orwell evaporate in horror.

No it doesn't. Break up groups of people gathering. Escort suspected infected to quarantine or testing. That's it. They don't need to be questioning law abiding citizens, stopping cars or shaming people with drones, or setting up forums so curtain twitchers can snitch on their neighbours for leaving the house more than once per day. A restriction on liberties, yes, but the minimum necessary should be applied. You don't just sledgehammer everyone with it because you can.

I'm honestly kind of amazed that that many people in the UK feel the need to order bottled water in such large amounts. As for old buildings, eh far as I'm aware the national grid pulled the lead pipes years ago and if your house hasn't had the piping updated in that long chances are the electrics will kill you first with worn fabric electric cables long before any lead poisoning from old pipes kicks in.

Bottled water should've been done away with years ago. It's totally unnecessary in this country, except in certain rare circumstances.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yes, because nothing would make me feel safer than wearing a goggles/bandana mask made by someone who can't assemble a Rhino without leaving panel gaps you post a coin through.

LOLed at that one.

"Pro Assembled"

tneva82 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52145230

Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,

but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it

I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference

Lol. I'm hardly surprised that he got fired for doing the right thing. Ah well.

He didn't do the right thing. If he was having trouble getting the Pacific Fleet commander to respond, you call the PACOM commander, then the CNO, the SECNAV then SECDEF then and only then can you go outside the chain to CONGRESS. He the commander of one of our Aircraft Carriers that had a fast track to flag rank which means A he should know this and B his call to any of those would have gotten a quick response. He had spoken with SECNAV that day and the CAPTs immediate boss who resides on the carrier itself was blinsided by the email. Heck there's probably one other slightly risky thing he could have done but there I'm speculating similarities between Navy and AF on how we handle DoD requirements.

There's an important line made by SECNAV not in the BBC article that makes a further point, the original email that was blasted out was done over unsecure email, you don't discuss the lack of operational capability of the aircraft carrier over unclass email which his position he knows. The relevant quote from SECNAV "The letter was sent over non- secure, unclassified email even though that ship possesses some of the most sophisticated communications and encryption equipment in the Fleet."

The sad thing is the navy is most likely doing the same thing now they would have done if he'd gone up his chain instead of outside his chain except now the situation is worse because the carrier has to do it with a new commander.


If you want to read the SECNAVs reasoning in his own word's https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=112537

From SECNAVs own mouth:

My Chief of Staff ensured that the CO knew that he had an open line to me to use at any time.

It seems that it wasn't that open a line if he was canned for using it. Circumventing the CoC is a serious issue, but if he was being encouraged to do so by SECNAV and his Chief of Staff then its not entirely fair to say that he acted in the wrong. I've heard different versions of the same story as to what exactly went down (some which paint Crozier as a hero who is being railroaded for creating bad press for Navy leadership, and others which paint him as an inept grandstander trying to score some of those "political points" that everyone keeps talking about), one of which was that the memorandum (as opposed to the "letter" it is being portrayed as) was sent to the rear admiral aboard with SECNAV, USPACFLT leadership, and others who Crozier had been in contact with regarding the situation cc'd via email (which is not out of the ordinary). Someone leaked the memo to the press (I've heard some have accused Crozier of being the leaker but I've found nothing that supports the assertion) as it went out in an unsecured manner and got forwarded by some of the recipients. I've also heard whisperings from people that claim to be "in the know" (unverified) that the letter was written in part because the chain of command, Rear Admiral Baker included, were being non-responsive to the COs requests and not taking seriously the severity of the situation he was trying to communicate to them, and that Crozier was aware that this would potentially be a career ender for him when he sent it. Curious to learn more as time goes on.