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We could always inject RFID tags into people.

It will make my future job easier.

I want a V-chip installed in me so I can grab people and then shout out a string of curses.

My national ID would say McLovin. 6', Hispanic, 160pounds, green eyes, black hair with sideburns.

Hell Yeah.

While I don't really like the law, it doesn't seem like Arizona has very many options. This should really be the federal government's business.

Yeah.

Kudos to Arizona for doing something about it.

Kudos for the recent "no permit required to buy or own a gun" law passed too.

Arizona is doing some ass kicking lately.

First the police have to have a reason to even suspect the person.
As in: Have they violated a LAW?
Were they doing something outside normal activities for the area?
As for suspecting they are illegal.......can they speak only in a (any) foreign language?
If a person only spoke french, or russian, would it not be prudent of an officer to ask for identification of some sort?

A great many illegals do not speak english. A person, "Native-born 5 generations back" would probably have decent english language skills. Not broken english or "Spanglish". I know of a Korean, not native born, that speaks as well as I do and sounds like a typical southern redneck.

The criteria for how and when to ask for proof of residency is written into the law. The penalties are as well.

If it is "Racial Profiling" to card people that can't be bothered to learn the established language of the country then fine.
Americans are proflied this way CONSTANTLY in non-english speaking countries... and some english speaking ones.
Want proof? Its a common movie meme. The Loud American. look it up.

helgrenze wrote:
The criteria for how and when to ask for proof of residency is written into the law. The penalties are as well.

*cough*Jim Crow*cough*

helgrenze wrote:
Americans are proflied this way CONSTANTLY in non-english speaking countries... and some english speaking ones.
Want proof? Its a common movie meme. The Loud American. look it up.

Irrelevant contention. You're approaching the "we should discriminate per religious affiliation." line of argument

That's because Americans is evil.

We loves guns (well, some of us) and we loves our country so we must be Satan incarnate.

It's okay that we must provide ID in foreign lands but foreigners don't need to provide it here.

Double standard much?

@ Helgrenze- It is what passes for a reason to suspect that is the problem. Every state now has laws that give the officer probable cause to stop someone when they are not breaking any laws.

Fateweaver wrote:
It's okay that we must provide ID in foreign lands but foreigners don't need to provide it here.

Double standard much?

Foreign laws now, legitimately, influence US laws?

I live in a border state (Cali), and I support the AZ law 100%. I would like to see this legislation adopted as model legislation by CA, along with NM and TX. And NY, and WA, and pretty much every other major entry state.

Not because I hate people who look differently from I do, but because following the law should have benefits, and breaking the law should have penalties.

Coming into the US is a privilege. Many people wait a long time and pay a lot of money for that privilege, because there are rules for this. You want in, get in line like everybody else.

Fateweaver wrote:But they ARE in the best interest of IT'S people. Illegals aren't the countries people, as much as they want to believe they are.

What about the legal citizens who happen to be brown? Whether you believe the requirements placed on them to be worth it or not, you can't deny they are affected.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I live in a border state (Cali), and I support the AZ law 100%. I would like to see this legislation adopted as model legislation by CA, along with NM and TX. And NY, and WA, and pretty much every other major entry state.

Not because I hate people who look differently from I do, but because following the law should have benefits, and breaking the law should have penalties.

Coming into the US is a privilege. Many people wait a long time and pay a lot of money for that privilege, because there are rules for this. You want in, get in line like everybody else.

This, of course, ceases to apply when the people in question are Asian.

Well sure but for every dick cop there is going to be 100 that do their job right (or whatever the available police force is in AZ).

I'm affected by liquor sellers stating they can and will card if the person looks 40 and under even though the age is 21. Is it inconvenient? Sure if I leave my wallet at home but if I know I must buy booze I make sure I have it.

If the federal government would do this gak themselves the states wouldn't have to do it for them. Problem is this administration (and others before) are too worried about kissing Mexico's ass to want to piss them off by cracking down on illegals. Now that the state of AZ is doing something about it it's raising a gak storm from the same administration that refuses to do it's job.

Let's stop kissing ass and start kicking ass. Yeesh.

helgrenze wrote:First the police have to have a reason to even suspect the person.
As in: Have they violated a LAW?
Were they doing something outside normal activities for the area?
As for suspecting they are illegal.......can they speak only in a (any) foreign language?
If a person only spoke french, or russian, would it not be prudent of an officer to ask for identification of some sort?

So reasonable suspicion means having broken english?

A great many illegals do not speak english. A person, "Native-born 5 generations back" would probably have decent english language skills. Not broken english or "Spanglish". I know of a Korean, not native born, that speaks as well as I do and sounds like a typical southern redneck.

One of my favourite moments was when I was playing cricket, the attached rec centre was being used by an Islamic group. All these kids spilled out dressed in traditional garb, all speaking with extremely heavy Australian accents. But I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

Americans are proflied this way CONSTANTLY in non-english speaking countries... and some english speaking ones.
Want proof? Its a common movie meme. The Loud American. look it up.

Umm, a tourist visa is not the same thing as citizenship.

And are you really complaining a stupid movie stereotype in comparison to actual racism?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:That's because Americans is evil.

We loves guns (well, some of us) and we loves our country so we must be Satan incarnate.

It's okay that we must provide ID in foreign lands but foreigners don't need to provide it here.

Double standard much?

Fateweaver, you make interesting points at times, but are entirely too easy to dismiss because of stuff like this. This has nothing to do with people trying to make out Americans as evil because of guns or whatever, that complaint is childish.

This has nothing to do with visa requirements overseas. This isn't about border checks, which every nation has. This isn't about showing your passport when you stop in at a hostel. This is about a requirement that legal citizens have id to establish they're not illegal.

I still don't see the problem.

You are legal, welcome to America.

If you aren't GTFO, stop sucking off our already way too generous government programs and come back when you can do it legally.

The idea of open hunting on illegals trying to sneak across at night sounds more and more appealing by the day.

The issue is that the illegals.... from where-ever... do not HAVE the required identification.

US Law states that certain paperwork must be available for inspection and presented "On Demand" by any foreign national traveling in this country. If such is not presented, then they are suspected of being here illegally.
A suspicion that must be investigated.
The people in charge of maintaining our borders admit they lack the manpower and funds to do this.
Arizona has decided that the Federal Officials are in need of help.
If you cross the border at an established crossing, you have to show ID, whether you were born here or not.
If you cross the border anywhere else, regardless of country of origin, you have violated this nations laws and should be prosecuted.

By your arguement no-one of hispanic origin should be subject to such a check because that would be "Racial Profiling".

My point is that if a person fits a profile, and all criminal profiles include RACE as a catagory, then it is not unreasonable to be suspicious of that person.

The Arizona law does not include ANY description of what an illegal immigrant looks like. And Does limit officers to Legitimate Contact... in the pursuit of their normal duties.

You act like they are saying that ALL Hispanics should be checked for proper id. That would include at least 6 players on the Arizona Diamondback Baseball team.

Police know who lives in their jurisdiction. They can establish a rapport with local citizens and know if some-one is out of place.
You want this to be racial, but its not.
Not all Irish are drunks.
Not all Italians are mob.
Not all Germans are Nazis.
Not all Arabs are Muslim.
Not all Japanese like anime.
Not all Hispanics are Illegal Aliens.
Not all English are "proper".
Not all Australians are Criminals.

BUT enough of each group do fall into the stereotypes to warrant the stereotype. Or the Profile. Based on race or country of origin.

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I live in a border state (Cali), and I support the AZ law 100%. I would like to see this legislation adopted as model legislation by CA, along with NM and TX. And NY, and WA, and pretty much every other major entry state.

Not because I hate people who look differently from I do, but because following the law should have benefits, and breaking the law should have penalties.

Coming into the US is a privilege. Many people wait a long time and pay a lot of money for that privilege, because there are rules for this. You want in, get in line like everybody else.

This, of course, ceases to apply when the people in question are Asian.

Not at all.

However, Asians have been strongly discriminated against under legal immigration quotas, and have considerably less ability to simply sneak their way in, so forcing everybody to play by the rules would naturally be in their best interest.

If Asians gain more / lose less when the playing field is level, I fail to see that as any sort of problem. It's merely their reward for following the rules of the game.

helgrenze wrote:
Not all Irish are drunks.
Not all Italians are mob.
Not all Germans are Nazis.
Not all Arabs are Muslim.
Not all Japanese like anime.
Not all Hispanics are Illegal Aliens.
Not all English are "proper".
Not all Australians are Criminals.

BUT enough of each group do fall into the stereotypes to warrant the stereotype. Or the Profile. Based on race or country of origin.

Lolwut.

There are enough Germans that are Nazis to be suspicious that any single German is a Nazi?

Not all Australians are criminals, but some are! O.M.F.G...

helgrenze wrote:The issue is that the illegals.... from where-ever... do not HAVE the required identification.

Do you want another ID card? Because I can send you one.

helgrenze wrote:
US Law states that certain paperwork must be available for inspection and presented "On Demand" by any foreign national traveling in this country. If such is not presented, then they are suspected of being here illegally.
A suspicion that must be investigated.

Wrong. You're conflating suspicion and investigation.

helgrenze wrote:
By your arguement no-one of hispanic origin should be subject to such a check because that would be "Racial Profiling".

No, that wasn't his argument.

helgrenze wrote:
My point is that if a person fits a profile, and all criminal profiles include RACE as a catagory, then it is not unreasonable to be suspicious of that person.

Most serial killers are white, shall we stop them all?

helgrenze wrote:
You act like they are saying that ALL Hispanics should be checked for proper id. That would include at least 6 players on the Arizona Diamondback Baseball team.

No, he is acting like that is what WILL happen. Will is not the same word as should.

helgrenze wrote:The issue is that the illegals.... from where-ever... do not HAVE the required identification.

US Law states that certain paperwork must be available for inspection and presented "On Demand" by any foreign national traveling in this country. If such is not presented, then they are suspected of being here illegally.

Yes, and if you're not a foreign national but a resident? You get asked for that ID and don't have it?

If you cross the border at an established crossing, you have to show ID, whether you were born here or not.
If you cross the border anywhere else, regardless of country of origin, you have violated this nations laws and should be prosecuted.

By your arguement no-one of hispanic origin should be subject to such a check because that would be "Racial Profiling".

My point is that if a person fits a profile, and all criminal profiles include RACE as a catagory, then it is not unreasonable to be suspicious of that person.

The Arizona law does not include ANY description of what an illegal immigrant looks like. And Does limit officers to Legitimate Contact... in the pursuit of their normal duties.

You act like they are saying that ALL Hispanics should be checked for proper id. That would include at least 6 players on the Arizona Diamondback Baseball team.

Police know who lives in their jurisdiction. They can establish a rapport with local citizens and know if some-one is out of place.
You want this to be racial, but its not.

What portion of people who will be asked for proof of legal residence will be brown?

Not all Irish are drunks.

Is there a process in place to breathalyse anyone who is observed talking with an Irish accent?

Not all Italians are mob.

Are there background checks run on everyone with an Italian last name?

Not all Germans are Nazis.

Are the Nazi hunters contacted for a background check on everyone named Helmut?

Not all English are "proper".
Not all Australians are Criminals.

BUT enough of each group do fall into the stereotypes to warrant the stereotype. Or the Profile. Based on race or country of origin.

How many Australians fall into the group criminal? Because no country on Earth has as many criminals per capita as the US, so I'm really wondering what you're getting at?

And you seem to be confusing cute national stereotypes, which hardly exist outside of jokes between friends, with real, actual racism. Do you really just not get racism and privilege at all?

Woot.

A heated argument with Dogma and Seb that I didn't start or fuel.

Who's awesome?

I'm awesome.

I think we need to agree to disagree and that nobodies minds are changing.

Once again I say good on Arizona. Now if only Florida and Tx and Cali would follow suit (Oh and the northern border states. Damned Canadians and their beady eyes and the funny way they talk).

"What's this thread ABOOT again?"

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Not at all.

However, Asians have been strongly discriminated against under legal immigration quotas, and have considerably less ability to simply sneak their way in, so forcing everybody to play by the rules would naturally be in their best interest.

18.1% of the US immigration total is expected to be Asian. 23.7% have been from Mexico via Latin America, that doesn't appear discriminatory. Unless you want to discuss specific treatment, in which case we can begin that conversation.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
If Asians gain more / lose less when the playing field is level, I fail to see that as any sort of problem.

I never stated that there would be one.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's merely their reward for following the rules of the game.

Why should we reward that? Is-ought problem, son.

I get asked for ID all the time. Is it because I am White? or because the law dictates that it is required?
I have been accused of being Racist, so Yeah, I am familier with the concept.
I have also been called a Nazi because I am german and know the difference between a Sharp and a Neo-nazi.
I have been told I am an alcoholic because it is in my "Irish Genes".
I have been asked if certain relatives are mobsters because they have Italian last names.

And if you actually look into it, while all nationalities, all are also considered distinct "Races" within the Caucasian subcatagory.
Racism and Racial Profiling are not the same thing.

And the AZ law states that ANY person can be asked to prove their residency. It does not SAY only brown skinned people.

(As for Australia..... It was founded as place for England to dump their convicted criminals.)

helgrenze wrote:
Racism and Racial Profiling are not the same thing.

Son, you just opened a can of philosophy.

Racial profiling is the inclusion of race as a determiner of guilt. Racism is the use of race as the primary determiner of guilt. Racial profiling is a form of racism.

helgrenze wrote:
And the AZ law states that ANY person can be asked to prove their residency. It does not SAY only brown skinned people.

Yes, that's nice. And expect that all Illinois people will be asked to prove their ownership of their vehicle.

dogma wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
Racism and Racial Profiling are not the same thing.

Son, you just opened a can of philosophy.

Racial profiling is the inclusion of race as a determiner of guilt.

"Racial profiling is the inclusion of racial or ethnic characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act or to behave in a "predictable" manner."

Racism is the use of race as the primary determiner of guilt.

"Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Or, on the opposite side, racism can be described as the belief that a certain race or races portray undesirable characteristics . "

See, not the same....

helgrenze wrote:
And the AZ law states that ANY person can be asked to prove their residency. It does not SAY only brown skinned people.

Yes, that's nice. And expect that all Illinois people will be asked to prove their ownership of their vehicle.

Illinois has more issues than that.....such as Chicago wanting the National Guard to be called in because of gang violence..... wanna talk Racial Profiling? Tjis is where my earlier scenario was based. Black youths are killing black youths in chicago. Now send in some NG from Peoria....what happens when the NG get shot at and they fire back? If the Guardsman is white... The Racial profiling flag goes up.

"Racial profiling is the inclusion of racial or ethnic characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act or to behave in a "predictable" manner."

"Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Or, on the opposite side, racism can be described as the belief that a certain race or races portray undesirable characteristics . "

Undesirable characteristics would obviously include tendencies towards crime. This issue is so complex that I have a very hard time taking your wikipedia summary, in any way satisfying. You can just check the wiki page, it is flagged as a contentious issue.

This article relies largely or entirely upon a single source. Please help improve this article by introducing appropriate citations of additional sources.

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.

The examples and perspective in this article deal primarily with the United States and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page.

It is nowhere near as simple as you are attempting to frame it.

I am going to drop another article, simply to balance the lack of insight.

http://reason.com/archives/2001/08/01/the-roots-of-racial-profiling

Read it.

helgrenze wrote:I get asked for ID all the time. Is it because I am White? or because the law dictates that it is required?
I have been accused of being Racist, so Yeah, I am familier with the concept.
I have also been called a Nazi because I am german and know the difference between a Sharp and a Neo-nazi.
I have been told I am an alcoholic because it is in my "Irish Genes".
I have been asked if certain relatives are mobsters because they have Italian last names.

Do you think your experiences are equivalent to racism experiences by brown and black skinned people?

And if you actually look into it, while all nationalities, all are also considered distinct "Races" within the Caucasian subcatagory.
Racism and Racial Profiling are not the same thing.

The difference is very clear when you're part of the white majority who isn't profiled, and very irrelevant when you're the muslim held for talks at the airport.

And the AZ law states that ANY person can be asked to prove their residency. It does not SAY only brown skinned people.

Are you straight up claiming that requests for ID won't fall predominantly on brown people?

(As for Australia..... It was founded as place for England to dump their convicted criminals.)

Really! Thankyou for explaining that basic piece of Australian history to an Australian. Now consider your argument, that stereotypes arise from things that exist within that group. Now consider that you've said there's a stereotype that Australians are criminals, based on events from it's founding 200 years ago. Now consider that Australia has a fairly low rate of incarceration, per capita it's about a tenth of the US.

Now consider the value of stereotypes again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:I think we need to agree to disagree and that nobodies minds are changing.

Yeah, that's the attitude that really stops you from developing your opinions and contributing real insight to these threads.

You don't have to agree with other people, but in properly considering their arguments your own understanding of an issue will grow. It's how people develop interesting points of view, as opposed to parroting their ideologies at each other until they get bored.

helgrenze wrote:
"Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Or, on the opposite side, racism can be described as the belief that a certain race or races portray undesirable characteristics . "

See, not the same....

No, it isn't the same. However, it is inclusive.

helgrenze wrote:
Illinois has more issues than that.....such as Chicago wanting the National Guard to be called in because of gang violence..... wanna talk Racial Profiling? Tjis is where my earlier scenario was based. Black youths are killing black youths in chicago. Now send in some NG from Peoria....what happens when the NG get shot at and they fire back? If the Guardsman is white... The Racial profiling flag goes up.

Peoria NG can't be sent to Chicago due to districting requirements.

At its core, this isn't an issue of race, but of Nationality. People seem to overlook that fact.

Racial profiling is a general nuisance, as its really just statistics. Legal citizens here that happen to have the same heritage as the illegal immigrants seem to want something to be mad about.

Alot of people these days, regardless of heritage, color or religion, seem really spoiled by the liberties this country provides us. They only want to see what they get, not what they can give.

If I have to spend an extra 5 minutes during a traffic stop to prove my citizenship, I can deal with it. I mean, the basic problem most people are having, is that they dont seem to have any faith in the police to fairly enforce the law. Its sad, as that really seems to be a bigger form of discrimination than the racial profiling(which hasnt even happened) , as it implies all the police are racists. Theyre just people that are doing an already difficult job to help us, and help our communities. Alot of you dont seem to comprehend that and seem to be casting the police officers into a worse light than the people who are knowingly commiting a crime when they enter our country. That seems.....slowed.

Actually, in the cases above, a majority were made by blacks. And since one in particular was an admitted "Black Supremist" I do feel that it was similar.

As for whether requests for ID in AZ will fall mostly on Brown skinned people....an estimated 28-30% of the states Legal population falls into the "hispanic" catagory.

Almost a third. and yes a vast majority, 60% is "white".

so I would suspect that a good many "brown" people would be asked for ID..... and since Some tanned "whites" can pass for Latino, and AZ is basically a sunny state, they will be carded too.

BUT, because the feds lack the manpower to be truely effective, and the local police will have at least passing knowledge of their citizenship, I doubt that there will be as much racial profiling as you imagine.

Face it... a good cop knows the people in his patrol area. If not in person, then in passing. This is an advantage the understaffed Feds do not have. I would expect a federal agent, unfamiliar with the area to do more racial profiling than the AZ police.
I would also expect there to be, given the ethnic make-up of the state, a sizable Hispanic population within the Law enforcement community, which would also lower the incidents of racial profiling.