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Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Mistress of minis wrote:At its core, this isn't an issue of race, but of Nationality. People seem to overlook that fact.


No, that's wrong. Unless you feel predisposed to hate the French?

Mistress of minis wrote:
If I have to spend an extra 5 minutes during a traffic stop to prove my citizenship, I can deal with it.


How about an extra 5% Federal income tax?

Mistress of minis wrote:
as it implies all the police are racists.


No, that isn't the necessary implication. That is your implication.

Mistress of minis wrote:
That seems.....slowed.


This is when I outline all the logical fallacies in this thread. Seriously, it is depressing.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

If I have to spend an extra 5 minutes during a traffic stop to prove my citizenship, I can deal with it. I mean, the basic problem most people are having, is that they dont seem to have any faith in the police to fairly enforce the law.


If that happened to me twice a week, making me late for work both of those days... every week; I could lose my job. It isn't a problem until it is your problem.

"Forgot your papers? Let's just go down to the station for a bit."

Its sad, as that really seems to be a bigger form of discrimination than the racial profiling(which hasnt even happened) , as it implies all the police are racists.


No, it doesn't. It assumes that mistakes are made, and that the chances to make those mistakes should be as limited as possible.

Theyre just people that are doing an already difficult job to help us, and help our communities. Alot of you dont seem to comprehend that and seem to be casting the police officers into a worse light than the people who are knowingly commiting a crime when they enter our country.


I have a good amount of faith in my local police force, but I know that they make mistakes, and regularly do so. Any police force does so...

It falls on the federal government to take action, via their resources. The local cops should not be dealing with this, and it is likely to be a recipe for disaster. It only takes a few cops to make big mistakes, and mistakes in this area could get their asses sued with a vengeance. National news, not local.



 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

helgrenze wrote:
I would also expect there to be, given the ethnic make-up of the state, a sizable Hispanic population within the Law enforcement community, which would also lower the incidents of racial profiling.


Bingo. People seem to think that police are imported from some factory. Theyre not, theyre people that live in the same neighborhood most of us do. Their kids go to the same schools, they shop at the same grocery stores, eat at the same restaurants etc etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:
Mistress of minis wrote:At its core, this isn't an issue of race, but of Nationality. People seem to overlook that fact.


No, that's wrong. Unless you feel predisposed to hate the French?

Mistress of minis wrote:
If I have to spend an extra 5 minutes during a traffic stop to prove my citizenship, I can deal with it.


How about an extra 5% Federal income tax?

Mistress of minis wrote:
as it implies all the police are racists.


No, that isn't the necessary implication. That is your implication.

Mistress of minis wrote:
That seems.....slowed.


This is when I outline all the logical fallacies in this thread. Seriously, it is depressing.


I like how you cut snippets of posts and then make wild assumptions off of them that have no bearing on the actual discussion- then take some stance supporting logic. Baffling. Im not even going to waste the time trying to counter your 'points' as you seem content to sort of babble or make some sort of intangible connections so you can feel like you are 'right'.

So, you win. Heres a medal for making the most contrary posts that have no substance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 10:00:25


 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Bingo. People seem to think that police are imported from some factory. Theyre not, theyre people that live in the same neighborhood most of us do. Their kids go to the same schools, they shop at the same grocery stores, eat at thesame restaurants etc et


... I.D. the kitchen staff while they wait for their taco salad...

Just kidding.

I don't think anyone has accused all police of being suspect, yet we are still left with the dilemma of assuming all people of Hispanic aesthetics, are suspect.



 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

helgrenze wrote:Actually, in the cases above, a majority were made by blacks. And since one in particular was an admitted "Black Supremist" I do feel that it was similar.


Similar indicates comparability. Would you compare?

helgrenze wrote:
As for whether requests for ID in AZ will fall mostly on Brown skinned people....an estimated 28-30% of the states Legal population falls into the "hispanic" catagory.


Not all Hispanics are brown.

helgrenze wrote:
BUT, because the feds lack the manpower to be truely effective..


Feds? These are state cops.

helgrenze wrote:
Face it... a good cop knows the people in his patrol area. If not in person, then in passing. This is an advantage the understaffed Feds do not have. I would expect a federal agent, unfamiliar with the area to do more racial profiling than the AZ police.


So you said, above, that the feds will do the relevant policing. But here you contradict that?

helgrenze wrote:
I would also expect there to be, given the ethnic make-up of the state, a sizable Hispanic population within the Law enforcement community, which would also lower the incidents of racial profiling.


Statistics in that sense are readily available.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

And a completely offtopic side note... My niece just sent me an invite for a Facebook group..... One I thnk we can all agree is an awesome idea....
"Screw teams Edward and Jacob. I'm on Team Silver Bullet/Team Wooden Stake."

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Wrexasaur wrote:
Bingo. People seem to think that police are imported from some factory. Theyre not, theyre people that live in the same neighborhood most of us do. Their kids go to the same schools, they shop at the same grocery stores, eat at thesame restaurants etc et


... I.D. the kitchen staff while they wait for their taco salad...

Just kidding.

I don't think anyone has accused all police of being suspect, yet we are still left with the dilemma of assuming all people of Hispanic aesthetics, are suspect.



The implications against the police arent limited to the discussion in this thread, I live in Arizona, I know whats being said on a local level about this issue. Yes, police are human and make mistakes. But theres already lawyers lining up to sue them for any perceived act of racial profiling. Several civil groups are already accusing the Maricopa County Sheriffs Department of being racist, and that was just from when ICE briefly gave them authority to enforce immigration laws during thier routine crime sweeps. Theres a portion of the population that would rather blame this problem on the police enforcing a federal law, rather than the cause of the law being needed.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Mistress of minis wrote:
I like how you cut snippets of posts and then make wild assumptions off of them that have no bearing on the actual discussion-


I've made no assumptions. I've made statements regarding statements that you have made, but I've made no assumptions. If you would like, I can post the truth tables that invalidate your statements.

Mistress of minis wrote:
then take some stance supporting logic. Baffling. Im not even going to waste the time trying to counter your 'points' as you seem content to sort of babble or make some sort of intangible connections so you can feel like you are 'right'.

So, you win. Heres a medal for making the most contrary posts that have no substance.


X=Y
X=-Y
-Y=-X
-X=-Z

Well done.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Mistress of minis wrote:At its core, this isn't an issue of race, but of Nationality. People seem to overlook that fact.


Only if you think there are no legal US citizens who are brown.

Racial profiling is a general nuisance, as its really just statistics. Legal citizens here that happen to have the same heritage as the illegal immigrants seem to want something to be mad about.


Or having your skin colour used as to presume you're a criminal is a demeaning, horrible experience.

Alot of people these days, regardless of heritage, color or religion, seem really spoiled by the liberties this country provides us. They only want to see what they get, not what they can give.


What you're doing there is attempting to establish a particular point by relying on a vague worldview. It's not a great way of forming opinions, facts and reason really do work a lot better.

If I have to spend an extra 5 minutes during a traffic stop to prove my citizenship, I can deal with it. I mean, the basic problem most people are having, is that they dont seem to have any faith in the police to fairly enforce the law. Its sad, as that really seems to be a bigger form of discrimination than the racial profiling(which hasnt even happened) , as it implies all the police are racists.


Come on, you must have had an inkling that you were being a little silly when you typed that. Really.

The idea that some a power will be dangerous as it might be misused by some policemen does not mean all policemen are racist. That's a very silly claim you've made.

Theyre just people that are doing an already difficult job to help us, and help our communities. Alot of you dont seem to comprehend that and seem to be casting the police officers into a worse light than the people who are knowingly commiting a crime when they enter our country. That seems.....slowed.


No, have you done any reading on civil liberties at all? That's just such a ridiculous mischaracterisation of the arguments for civil liberties.

To put it really simply, while a criminal can be a very, very bad person, he simply cannot wield the power that government can, and as a result we are much more careful about the powers we extend to government.

This does mean that policemen will have restrictions placed on them that they might not like, but good effective policemen will still be good effective policemen even if they can't insist a brown person with broken english prove he is a legal citizen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 10:16:32


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Dogma wrote:
helgrenze wrote:
As for whether requests for ID in AZ will fall mostly on Brown skinned people....an estimated 28-30% of the states Legal population falls into the "hispanic" catagory.


Not all Hispanics are brown.

True enough, and the police in Arizona would know this, as well as that not all brown people are hispanic.
Dogma wrote:
helgrenze wrote:
BUT, because the feds lack the manpower to be truely effective..


Feds? These are state cops.

helgrenze wrote:
Face it... a good cop knows the people in his patrol area. If not in person, then in passing. This is an advantage the understaffed Feds do not have. I would expect a federal agent, unfamiliar with the area to do more racial profiling than the AZ police.


So you said, above, that the feds will do the relevant policing. But here you contradict that?

What I said was that the Feds lack the manpower. This is why the State has enacted this law. I also said that the police would Know their patrol areas, the people in them and am suggesting that they, the Police in AZ, would be better equiped to locate and question people suspected of being illegal.

helgrenze wrote:
I would also expect there to be, given the ethnic make-up of the state, a sizable Hispanic population within the Law enforcement community, which would also lower the incidents of racial profiling.


Statistics in that sense are readily available.

True.. why don't you look that up for us.?

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

The implications against the police arent limited to the discussion in this thread, I live in Arizona, I know whats being said on a local level about this issue. Yes, police are human and make mistakes. But theres already lawyers lining up to sue them for any perceived act of racial profiling. Several civil groups are already accusing the Maricopa County Sheriffs Department of being racist, and that was just from when ICE briefly gave them authority to enforce immigration laws during thier routine crime sweeps. Theres a portion of the population that would rather blame this problem on the police enforcing a federal law, rather than the cause of the law being needed.


I understand that you are clearly more connected to this specific issue.

I'm not supporting the line of lawsuits that are unfounded, but it would not surprise me in the least to look in next week's headlines, and see the worst case scenario happen. Common sense would dictate that the amount of pressure that has been mounted in reaction to this, is going to make it very uncomfortable for a lot of people. I don't think this law will make anything better, and federal intervention is not likely for a year, aside rulings from the judiciary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 10:16:30



 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





helgrenze wrote:so I would suspect that a good many "brown" people would be asked for ID..... and since Some tanned "whites" can pass for Latino, and AZ is basically a sunny state, they will be carded too.


So are you claiming that white people will be just as likely to be checked for legal citizenship as brown people, or not?

Face it... a good cop knows the people in his patrol area. If not in person, then in passing. This is an advantage the understaffed Feds do not have. I would expect a federal agent, unfamiliar with the area to do more racial profiling than the AZ police.
I would also expect there to be, given the ethnic make-up of the state, a sizable Hispanic population within the Law enforcement community, which would also lower the incidents of racial profiling.


Oh, so as long as a brown person stays in his local area and doesn't drive to the next town he'll never be hassled. Not a problem then.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

helgrenze wrote:
True enough, and the police in Arizona would know this, as well as that not all brown people are hispanic.


They would? The police in Chicago don't know this, not as a rule.

helgrenze wrote:
What I said was that the Feds lack the manpower. This is why the State has enacted this law. I also said that the police would Know their patrol areas, the people in them and am suggesting that they, the Police in AZ, would be better equiped to locate and question people suspected of being illegal.


Do you know your local cop?

helgrenze wrote:
True.. why don't you look that up for us.?


Why would I do your work for you?

Seriosuly dude, go with the rigor.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Mistress of minis wrote:I like how you cut snippets of posts and then make wild assumptions off of them that have no bearing on the actual discussion- then take some stance supporting logic. Baffling. Im not even going to waste the time trying to counter your 'points' as you seem content to sort of babble or make some sort of intangible connections so you can feel like you are 'right'.

So, you win. Heres a medal for making the most contrary posts that have no substance.


You said people think all police are racist, and then complain about wild assumptions that have no bearing on the actual discussion. That's a thing.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Talk about racial profiling, sebster, You have automatically assumes that ALL brown people in AZ will be stopped and questioned based on nothing more than brown skin.
There are 17 indian reservations in AZ, many of whom would be considered "brown skinned". They have, however, different facial features than those of hispanic descent.
You would lump these people with everyone of brown skin and expect them to be asked for id everytime they pass a cop.

Todays modern American police forces have computers in their cars. They have some of the best wireless networks in the country with dedicated secure servers.
Any information they enter into the system will be accessable by other officers within minutes of entry.

They stop a car, enter the info, do their checks and either let the person go on their way or detain them. If the person is let go, another officer, further down the road, can check the cars plates without stopping the vehicle and retrieve the information entered by the first officer.
Your agrument for repeated stops is nullified by modern police technology.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dogma.. I live in a city and make it a point to know several. Plus I work third shift and have been seen out and about in predawn hours. I have been stopped on many occaissions for questioning, which I would expect given the hour and such.
Thats just police doing their jobs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 10:36:44


Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

sebster wrote:
Mistress of minis wrote:I like how you cut snippets of posts and then make wild assumptions off of them that have no bearing on the actual discussion- then take some stance supporting logic. Baffling. Im not even going to waste the time trying to counter your 'points' as you seem content to sort of babble or make some sort of intangible connections so you can feel like you are 'right'.

So, you win. Heres a medal for making the most contrary posts that have no substance.


You said people think all police are racist, and then complain about wild assumptions that have no bearing on the actual discussion. That's a thing.


I did not say or imply people think all police are racists- I mentioned it was an implication based on lack of trust for the law enforcement community to fairly carry out the law this discussion is supposed to be about.

If you are going to quote me, please be accurate. The above statement that you did decide to quote, and your comment about it are taken out of context to suit your perspective.
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





helgrenze wrote:Talk about racial profiling, sebster, You have automatically assumes that ALL brown people in AZ will be stopped and questioned based on nothing more than brown skin.
There are 17 indian reservations in AZ, many of whom would be considered "brown skinned". They have, however, different facial features than those of hispanic descent.
You would lump these people with everyone of brown skin and expect them to be asked for id everytime they pass a cop.


Come on. You're claiming I was profiling because I took your figure of racial demographics, subsequently added Indians into that group, then said I was assuming Indians would be treated the same as hispanics, or something. Obviously, very obviously, we are talking about the treatment of hispanics, and were using brown as a descriptor for them. The inclusion of Indians is your construction to try and score points on some bizarre technicality.

I know this is the internet but there's still a bare minimum standard for debate, surely, if only for your own pride?

Meanwhile you still won't answer if legal hispanic citzens will be required to show their ID more than whites.

Todays modern American police forces have computers in their cars. They have some of the best wireless networks in the country with dedicated secure servers.
Any information they enter into the system will be accessable by other officers within minutes of entry.

They stop a car, enter the info, do their checks and either let the person go on their way or detain them. If the person is let go, another officer, further down the road, can check the cars plates without stopping the vehicle and retrieve the information entered by the first officer.
Your agrument for repeated stops is nullified by modern police technology.


Since when was it only a hassle if it was multiple times a day. I was thinking it would be a few times a year and that would be pretty damn offensive.

Dogma.. I live in a city and make it a point to know several. Plus I work third shift and have been seen out and about in predawn hours. I have been stopped on many occaissions for questioning, which I would expect given the hour and such.
Thats just police doing their jobs.


I once worked in the country, a small wheat town. I was leaving, and packing up my house, and trying to get it all done before driving off early in the morning. This took me until the small hours of the morning. Understandably the police came by, I was emptying a house and loading a trailer at about two in the morning. The officer stopped by, got out of his car and took just long enough to check I was white before heading off. It was the new copper, he had no idea who I was.

A black fella loading his car up in the same way would not have been given the same leniancy. Given that about a month before a black fella was walking home drunk and ended up being arrested for not telling the officer where he lived, I know that for a fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mistress of minis wrote:I did not say or imply people think all police are racists- I mentioned it was an implication based on lack of trust for the law enforcement community to fairly carry out the law this discussion is supposed to be about.

If you are going to quote me, please be accurate. The above statement that you did decide to quote, and your comment about it are taken out of context to suit your perspective.


What?

You said “the basic problem most people are having, is that they dont seem to have any faith in the police to fairly enforce the law. Its sad, as that really seems to be a bigger form of discrimination than the racial profiling(which hasnt even happened) , as it implies all the police are racists.”

I’ve read it about through a bunch of times now, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how it supposed to read, other than ‘the problem is people are going with the assumption that all police are racists’. You might not have meant for it to read that way, the problem might be that you don’t know what implication means, or just chose your words poorly, I’m not sure.

But I do know what it says, and when commenting on it I did put it in fair context. I’ll tell you right now I’m not here to ‘win’ this, I’m trying to get some sanity put into this debate, as I honestly believe that as with most issues the problem comes down to people not thinking things through properly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 11:00:49


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

sebster wrote:
helgrenze wrote:Talk about racial profiling, sebster, You have automatically assumes that ALL brown people in AZ will be stopped and questioned based on nothing more than brown skin.
There are 17 indian reservations in AZ, many of whom would be considered "brown skinned". They have, however, different facial features than those of hispanic descent.
You would lump these people with everyone of brown skin and expect them to be asked for id everytime they pass a cop.


Come on. You're claiming I was profiling because I took your figure of racial demographics, subsequently added Indians into that group, then said I was assuming Indians would be treated the same as hispanics, or something. Obviously, very obviously, we are talking about the treatment of hispanics, and were using brown as a descriptor for them. The inclusion of Indians is your construction to try and score points on some bizarre technicality.

What technicallity? You accept that not all hispanics are brown skinned, and that not all brown skinned people are hispanic. But you would insist that people with brown skin will be disportionally stopped and asked for identification. This is not some construct of mine, just logical conclusion on what is accepted as fact.

sebster wrote:
I know this is the internet but there's still a bare minimum standard for debate, surely, if only for your own pride?

Meanwhile you still won't answer if legal hispanic citzens will be required to show their ID more than whites.

I have and I have also stated that whites will also be stopped as will some Native Americans and blacks.
sebster wrote:
Todays modern American police forces have computers in their cars. They have some of the best wireless networks in the country with dedicated secure servers.
Any information they enter into the system will be accessable by other officers within minutes of entry.

They stop a car, enter the info, do their checks and either let the person go on their way or detain them. If the person is let go, another officer, further down the road, can check the cars plates without stopping the vehicle and retrieve the information entered by the first officer.
Your agrument for repeated stops is nullified by modern police technology.


Since when was it only a hassle if it was multiple times a day. I was thinking it would be a few times a year and that would be pretty damn offensive.

The information does not vanish into the ether. The police can check your plates without you knowing it. They pull up behind you, run your plates and turn off if everything checks out.

sebster wrote:
I once worked in the country, a small wheat town. I was leaving, and packing up my house, and trying to get it all done before driving off early in the morning. This took me until the small hours of the morning. Understandably the police came by, I was emptying a house and loading a trailer at about two in the morning. The officer stopped by, got out of his car and took just long enough to check I was white before heading off. It was the new copper, he had no idea who I was.

A black fella loading his car up in the same way would not have been given the same leniancy. Given that about a month before a black fella was walking home drunk and ended up being arrested for not telling the officer where he lived, I know that for a fact.

And what country was this in? My guess would be he knew of you and wanted to be certain that the person emptying the house was the right person.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Main Entry: im·ply
Pronunciation: im-'plI
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: im·plied ; im·ply·ing
1 : to recognize as existing by inference or necessary consequence esp. on legal or equitable grounds- imply that it was the duty of the hospital to use due care — Haase v. Starnes , 915 South Western Reporter, Second Series 675 (1996)>
2 : to make known indirectly


In other words- its not a fact, but the perception involved. Perhaps the common usage of the word has slightly differing context between 'American English' and 'Queens English'.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Not all English are 'proper'? In Middlesbrough, none of them are. There was a posh bloke lived here in about 1989, but we ate him. :-)

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
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The paint dungeon, Arizona

mattyrm wrote:Not all English are 'proper'? In Middlesbrough, none of them are. There was a posh bloke lived here in about 1989, but we ate him. :-)


With fava beans and a nice chianti?
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

helgrenze wrote:
You would lump these people with everyone of brown skin and expect them to be asked for id everytime they pass a cop.


No, that's not what he's doing. You're conflating the concept of 'some' with the concept of 'all'. Its a common mistake.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mistress of minis wrote:Main Entry: im·ply
Pronunciation: im-'plI
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: im·plied ; im·ply·ing
1 : to recognize as existing by inference or necessary consequence esp. on legal or equitable grounds- imply that it was the duty of the hospital to use due care — Haase v. Starnes , 915 South Western Reporter, Second Series 675 (1996)>
2 : to make known indirectly


In other words- its not a fact, but the perception involved. Perhaps the common usage of the word has slightly differing context between 'American English' and 'Queens English'.


No, that is only one possible meaning.

"....to recognize as existing by inference or necessary consequence..." Is not a matter of perception. It is a matter of fact.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 13:25:55


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





WTF people.

This law gives states the right to lock up legal residents who forget thier "Papers". LEGAL is the word here! how many of you have forgotten your wallets, or hoped in a friends car to go ride to the store. How about a walk to the store for some gum. Or Kids playing at the park. People whine about the health cre bill blocking freedom, then ok a bill that can lock up legal residents. 4th amendment be damned.

The right to sue the government for not enforcing the law.
WTF is there some kind of Mexican round up quota?

What about homeless people who have no identification papers?

Hear my words people. In the past 8 years Republicans in the whitehouse have detained Americans in Gitmo without trial, Now Arizona has passed a law allowing the round up of legal Americans.

If any of you think it's wrong that the government force you to by healthcare, then how about locking you up for forgeting your "Papers".


And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.

Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





helgrenze wrote:What technicallity? You accept that not all hispanics are brown skinned, and that not all brown skinned people are hispanic. But you would insist that people with brown skin will be disportionally stopped and asked for identification. This is not some construct of mine, just logical conclusion on what is accepted as fact.


I said brown people would be disproportionately targeted. Obviously this meant hispanic people. You said that brown also includes indian and they won't be targeted therefore all brown people won't be targeted. It was a stupid, contrived point.

If you don't believe it's a stupid, contrived point I can rephrase it - brown people with features identifying them as hispanic will be more likely to be targeted than people who are not brown and have hispanic features.

But you know that, you're just off on some stupid points scoring exercise.



I have and I have also stated that whites will also be stopped as will some Native Americans and blacks.


But you still won't answer the question. Is a little honesty that hard?

Will whites, blacks and native americans be stopped in the same proportions as hispanics? Will a white person be required to show identification as often as an hispanic person?


The information does not vanish into the ether. The police can check your plates without you knowing it. They pull up behind you, run your plates and turn off if everything checks out.


You think police check a car and never, ever check that car again. Seriously? What if, you know, someone else drove it?

And what country was this in? My guess would be he knew of you and wanted to be certain that the person emptying the house was the right person.


No, as I stated he was the new copper in town. And it was in Australia. We have race issues at least as bad as yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mistress of minis wrote:Main Entry: im·ply
Pronunciation: im-'plI
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: im·plied ; im·ply·ing
1 : to recognize as existing by inference or necessary consequence esp. on legal or equitable grounds- imply that it was the duty of the hospital to use due care — Haase v. Starnes , 915 South Western Reporter, Second Series 675 (1996)>
2 : to make known indirectly


In other words- its not a fact, but the perception involved. Perhaps the common usage of the word has slightly differing context between 'American English' and 'Queens English'.


No, you just misused the word. Let's put the dictionary definition back into your original statement; “the basic problem most people are having, is that they dont seem to have any faith in the police to fairly enforce the law. Its sad, as that really seems to be a bigger form of discrimination than the racial profiling(which hasnt even happened) , as it means by necessary consequence all the police are racists.”

Which would mean that our assumption that this will be misused to some extent means by necessary consequence that all police are racists.

Which is what I assumed you meant. Which you said was not what you meant. Which can only mean you meant something entirely else with your use of the word 'imply'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 16:20:30


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Pretty soon we'll just invade Mexico. It'll be alot cheaper than invading another middle eastern country and I think the have some oil to justify it. I mean we can commute to the front lines then.


Annex Mexico. Make it into ten states. Annex Canada, same to same. Begin the drive south to plunder, er more efficiently utilize Brazil's precious natural resources!





-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

Sure, the women are hot but there's no way I want to learn Portuguese.

My wife complains about me mixing Korean in with my Japanese already, throw another language in the mix and I'd be in trouble.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 17:05:42


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better yet, do both.
better (er? ) yet, properly close the border like every other freeking country on the globe that is a sovereign state, and put the illegals here on a path to citizenship like legal immigrants. But if you commit a crime, you're outta here.


It's a very long border, you know. You could employ everyone in the country to stand watch and there'd still be gaps.

No there wouldn't. besides, its my country not yours. Butt out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
Dainty Twerp wrote:and oh, well. Life is hard when you want to live in a civilized society, huh. You have to carry that near weightless tiny piece of plastic on you. And you if choose not to you might have to stand around while the police verify who you are over the radio or on a cruiser computer.

and if you are breaking the law, then you're going to have to answer for it.


'Hello there, brown person.'
'Hello, officer'
'I've pulled your car over today because I noticed you were brown.'
'Heh, you got me there officer, I sure am brown.'
'As an individual of brown skin, I'm legally obligated to check you're not a illegal job stealing illegal.'
'Certainly officer.'
'Do you have any ID on you, brown person.'
'Here you go, officer.’
‘Thank you, brown person. You can be on your way.’
‘Go Cardinals.’
‘Go Cardinals.’

That would be illega under the law. The person would win a lot of money for violating their civil rights. The officer would be fired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote:Sure, the women are hot but there's no way I want to learn Portuguese.

My wife complains about me mixing Korean in with my Japanese already, throw another language in the mix and I'd be in trouble.


Its a burden I would be prepared to bear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/28 17:12:13


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wrexasaur wrote:
If I have to spend an extra 5 minutes during a traffic stop to prove my citizenship, I can deal with it. I mean, the basic problem most people are having, is that they dont seem to have any faith in the police to fairly enforce the law.


If that happened to me twice a week, making me late for work both of those days... every week; I could lose my job. It isn't a problem until it is your problem.

"Forgot your papers? Let's just go down to the station for a bit."

Its sad, as that really seems to be a bigger form of discrimination than the racial profiling(which hasnt even happened) , as it implies all the police are racists.


No, it doesn't. It assumes that mistakes are made, and that the chances to make those mistakes should be as limited as possible.

Theyre just people that are doing an already difficult job to help us, and help our communities. Alot of you dont seem to comprehend that and seem to be casting the police officers into a worse light than the people who are knowingly commiting a crime when they enter our country.


I have a good amount of faith in my local police force, but I know that they make mistakes, and regularly do so. Any police force does so...

It falls on the federal government to take action, via their resources. The local cops should not be dealing with this, and it is likely to be a recipe for disaster. It only takes a few cops to make big mistakes, and mistakes in this area could get their asses sued with a vengeance. National news, not local.



If you are getting routinely pulled over twice a week for traffic violations perhaps you shouldn't have a license to drive........just saying?

As far as cops checking to see who's driving a car, when they are behind you they don't know who's driving or why. They can stay tailing you for around 30 seconds, run your plates and be on their way if everything is kosher without ever having to talk to you. They don't care WHO is driving unless they can get next to you or approach you and/or they get a call on a car spotted who's occupants were doing something illegal.

I can guarantee your plates are checked dozens of times in a year without you ever knowing.

Again, this is only being made an "issue" by the legal citizens who are afraid they'll be harassed unfairly. Will it happen? Probably. Is it an issue so long as everything is in order? Nope. It's only an issue because people want to make it an issue.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:It's a very long border, you know. You could employ everyone in the country to stand watch and there'd still be gaps.

No there wouldn't. besides, its my country not yours. Butt out.


Because basic geography can only be understood by people living there? I understand if googlemaps is all too new for you, but how about an atlas? The border is a bit under 2,000 miles, whether you live there or not this doesn't change. There are presently around 20,000 employees in the United States Border Patrol, which is a lot of people and a lot of expense. Despite this, there are a lot of illegal aliens in the US, because a border just under 2,000 miles long is a really hard thing to protect 24/7. What part of that depends on a physical presence in the United States.

Which is why physical protection is basically an expensive, losing game. Reducing the incentive for illegal aliens is much cheaper, but unfortunately the illegal workers are very important in some very politically influential industries.

That would be illega under the law. The person would win a lot of money for violating their civil rights. The officer would be fired.


That's two of you who've taken the post at face value? Is my writing that real that people can't help but be drawn into the story? Something must be happening that makes the obvious silliness of that post not register?

Or is it, possibly, just possibly, that you ignore the silliness of the post because it makes rebuttal easier, and allows you to ignore the real point - that being identified as a likely illegal immigrant based on skin colour is a really offensive thing to have happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fateweaver wrote:Again, this is only being made an "issue" by the legal citizens who are afraid they'll be harassed unfairly. Will it happen? Probably. Is it an issue so long as everything is in order? Nope. It's only an issue because people want to make it an issue.


Being required to have papers on you to prove you're a legal citizen, that's only an issue if you make it an issue. But having to buy health insurance, that government oppression.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/28 17:41:27


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

Being required to carry "papers" (as you call them) is nothing new. We're already required to carry government IDs, whether these are driver's licences, or IDs-for-those-without-licences.

This changes nothing.

   
 
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