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Well, wouldn't a death star get owned anyway? IoM could send in an ironclad ship mounting a planet-killer cannon and pawoosh the DS. Also, couldn't a nova cannon beat the crap out of a DS? They're innacurate but a DS is the size of a small planet.

On ground IoM would undoubtedly win

@Felix-you don't know when to stop, "Do you?". Just leave the space battle out of it. Go look at the federation thread and you might understand why the OP doesn't want to discuss it in this thread.

As to the ground fight, You can claim that the IoM wins but you might want to bring evidence that supports your case.

felixthecat345 wrote:Well, wouldn't a death star get owned anyway? IoM could send in an ironclad ship mounting a planet-killer cannon and pawoosh the DS. Also, couldn't a nova cannon beat the crap out of a DS? They're innacurate but a DS is the size of a small planet.

On ground IoM would undoubtedly win

Don't even need to do that. One thunderbolt can fly in and launch a torpedo down the DE's exaust pipe.

On Topic, now, what about special/elite units? Comparisons, anyone?

To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

well, an AT-AT has 4 linked Heavy Blaster cannons on its head, No shielding, but thick armour. we will give the HBCs the benifit of the doubt and make them each Str10 AP2 Heavy 1. we will also give the AT-AT 4 Structure points and AV14,13,12


a Reaver has 3 various weapons attached to it, one is an Appoclypse missile launcher(approximate fluff range, 500 kilometers), LaserBlaster(3 Turbolaser destructors), Gatling Blaster(6 Battle cannon pie plates).


the AT-ATs Blaster cannons fire, 2 out of 4 hit(a generous BS of 3 for the Stormtroopers on board), Reaver is down to 2 void shields.

Reaver attempts to Regenerate Void shields(IIRC it is a dice per down shield and it is on a 5+) 2/3s of a void is restored, Reaver opens up, Laserblaster will on average get 3 hits because of the size of the AT-ATs hull, Gatling blaster will get 2 direct hits, 1 scatter, but still on target and 2 partials, Missile launcher will get 4 hits.

3 Penetrating Hits from the Laserblaster, Gattling blaster needs 6s to glance. .5 glancing hits. missile launcher will get 1 Pen and 1 glance.

4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 3 Structure pts of damage.


AT-AT fires 3 blaster cannons. 1.5 hit, reaver loses 1.5 voids. reaver down to 1.16 voids.

Reaver regens shields, 3 rolls, 1 void restored for 2.16 voids. Reaver fires. Same as above
4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 2 Structure pts of damage.


AT-AT fires 3 blaster cannons, 1.5 hit. reaver loses 1.5 voids. reaver down to .5 voids.

reaver regens shields, reaver rolls 4 dice, 1.33 voids restored. Reaver fires, same as above
4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 1 Structure pts of damage.

AT-AT fires 3 blaster cannons, 1.5 hit. reaver loses 1.5 voids. reaver down to 0 voids.

reaver regens shields, reaver rolls 4 dice, 1.33 voids restored. Reaver fires, same as above
4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 0 Structure pts of damage.

Reaver wins.







unless you give the AT-AT BS4 or better the Reaver will generate it's shields abck at around the same rate as the AT-AT can bring them down.

my math is far from perfect so if someone with ready access to the Appoc rule book(was doing this from memory) could do a double test that would be better.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

We already discussed this. There were only a couple of those dark troopers made,so they don't qualify as anything impotant that the IoM would have to worry about.

A reaver titan is so much more agile and has two insanely powerful weapons attached to it. ANY of those weapons could easily punch through an AT-AT with a single shot (Multi-laser,meltacannon,gatlling blaster,powerfist).

No contest what-so ever.

ALSO: To the above poster: I'd give the AT-AT BS2, to be honest. The guns on its face barely pivot,and the storm troopers operating it are probably not the smartest cookies.

You forgot that the AT-AT's come in squadrons.

well, so do Reavers.

and while the Reavers and Warlords are blasting each other a Few Dozen Warhounds are running among the AT-ATs blasting them with their Turbolasers and Plasma Blast guns.


AT-ATs may be the (almost)equilivent of a Reaver, but the Empire has no counter to Warhounds and Warlords.




also Titans NEVER operate alone. if there was a Squadron of AT-AT the IoM would send the Titans after them. my psuedo mathhammer above shows that, in game terms anyway, a AT-AT would last 4 turns under direct fire from a Reaver, but would do little to no lasting damage.

in real life(assuming both would be real) a reaver would likely aim for the legs and take out a AT-AT every 60 seconds. now 3 AT-ATs might be able to hurt a Reaver, but it would take concentrated fire and the Reaver would likely still come out on top.



Warhounds would have a grand time hunting AT-ATs. the AT-ATs might hit a Warhound at longrange, but once up close the Warhound would run circles around and behind the AT-ATs, firing its guns to full effect. Warhounds also always operate in pairs if not trios and if there was a few dozen AT-ATs advancing on an IoM position then 2 or 3 packs of Warhounds might be dispatched.


Warlords would just pound the AT-ATs from 50 Kilometers away with Missiles and they would go down before the AT-ATs even got a shot off.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

We already discussed this. There were only a couple of those dark troopers made,so they don't qualify as anything impotant that the IoM would have to worry about.

A reaver titan is so much more agile and has two insanely powerful weapons attached to it. ANY of those weapons could easily punch through an AT-AT with a single shot (Multi-laser,meltacannon,gatlling blaster,powerfist).

No contest what-so ever.

ALSO: To the above poster: I'd give the AT-AT BS2, to be honest. The guns on its face barely pivot,and the storm troopers operating it are probably not the smartest cookies.

I'm aware of that, I was using the Dark Trooper as an example.

@Grey Templar- I don't know.

First, I believe that the ST-AT's do have shielding

Second From the fluff, the AT-AT's would vastly out number the Titans.

Third, The Warhounds and the 2-legged walkers would clash first.

Fourth, The Land Speeder rapid response teams would cause massive problems for the warhounds.

I think th battles would be much more even than you let on.

focusedfire wrote:@Felix-you don't know when to stop, "Do you?". Just leave the space battle out of it. Go look at the federation thread and you might understand why the OP doesn't want to discuss it in this thread.

As to the ground fight, You can claim that the IoM wins but you might want to bring evidence that supports your case.

Fine, sorry, calm down.

Anyway, evidence:
GE: What do you have to match our AT-ATs?
IoM: Well, there's this: (enter baneblade)
GE: Yes, that's large, but no match for the power of our-
(enter warhound)
GE: That's more like it. It may be a match for an AT-AT on its own, but not with the dozens of troops that pore out of it.
(Rolls out Reaver)
GE: Well, we can always get more.
(Enter Warlord)
GE: OK, that's just terrifying.
(Enter Emperor)
GE: Holy son of a-POW!

Same with other tanks. Chimeras and sentinels may be matched by AT-STs, but a Leman will just destroy them. And a clone might test a guardsmen, but not if there's a million of them. Nothing else I can say that hasn't been said a million times before in this thread.

focusedfire wrote:@Grey Templar- I don't know.

First, I believe that the ST-AT's do have shielding

Second From the fluff, the AT-AT's would vastly out number the Titans.

Third, The Warhounds and the 2-legged walkers would clash first.

Fourth, The Land Speeder rapid response teams would cause massive problems for the warhounds.

I think th battles would be much more even than you let on.

An excellent point about outnumbering. However, it's got to be remembered that the IoM doesn't just use Titans to take out other super-heavies. There are still other specialised units to do that job, such as Shadowswords. Heck, even IG artillery will do the job provided they have enough numbers.

One word: TITAN

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:An excellent point about outnumbering. However, it's got to be remembered that the IoM doesn't just use Titans to take out other super-heavies. There are still other specialised units to do that job, such as Shadowswords. Heck, even IG artillery will do the job provided they have enough numbers.

Yeah, good point about the Artillery.

But, you forgot about the Nipple Gun(Family Guy) that can destroy Capital ships in orbit(Empire Strikes Back).

focusedfire wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:An excellent point about outnumbering. However, it's got to be remembered that the IoM doesn't just use Titans to take out other super-heavies. There are still other specialised units to do that job, such as Shadowswords. Heck, even IG artillery will do the job provided they have enough numbers.

Yeah, good point about the Artillery.

But, you forgot about the Nipple Gun(Family Guy) that can destroy Capital ships in orbit(Empire Strikes Back).

The Ion (boob) cannon? That doesn't destroy ships. It merely disables them for a short while due to electronic interferance, but to be fair, it's still a moot point; you're dead in a battle if you're that helpless.

The Ion Cannon.

Sorry KillKrazy,
I know the name but Family Guy has warped me. I will try to keep the Family Guy humor to a more acceptable level.

DrownedRat117 wrote:One word: TITAN

One word response:
PHAIL!

focusedfire wrote:@Grey Templar- I don't know.

First, I believe that the AT-AT's do have shielding

Second From the fluff, the AT-AT's would vastly out number the Titans.

Third, The Warhounds and the 2-legged walkers would clash first.

Fourth, The Land Speeder rapid response teams would cause massive problems for the warhounds.

I think the battles would be much more even than you let on.

1) AT-ATs don't have shielding in the films and i have never encountered any in the expanded universe.

2) Yes, the AT-AT will out number the titans, but likely not enough to overcome them AND all the other Impierial weaponry capable of killing them.

3) a Warhound isn't going to stop for sentinal sized walkers with Multilasers, it will simply squish a few with its feet on the way to the AT-ATs and leave them to the Sentinals.

4) the battle won't be just, titans VS whatever the Empire can throw at them, there are the waves and waves of Skittarii, Cataphraktos, all the IG troops, and the Space marines.


i was going off the question "would AT-ATs be a match for Titans" and the answer is a definite NO. you would need a 12-1 match up before it came close

Havoc13 wrote:

DrownedRat117 wrote:One word: TITAN

One word response:
PHAIL!

QFT, methinks.

One thing all the detractors of the GE forget, Everytime the Stormtroopers are shown to be firing at the "Heros" I.E. Han, Luke etc. They were under orders to let them go.
So the BS2 or 3 is exactly that B.S.

Also Katarn armor (clone commando) can take a direct hit for a rail gun equivalent (Verpine) and not get penetrated. So the Bolters/las guns of the IoM fail miserably.

As for the post about Jedi (or Sith) vs a Space Marine. LOLcats. A Squad of Marines MIGHT be able to take a knight, not a master. even against a knight, it would be a close fight.
As for one on one... Jedi takes marine apart (literally), yes even a librarian.

AT-AT vs Titan... Good match. I think that it would be a tie. Larger titans, Vs a World Devestator? Titan would be snack food. Which the WD would then turn into arms/equipment for the empire.

As for all the comments about numerical superiority of the IoM, Wouldn't do much considering it take the IoM decades to centuries to respond to a war-zone or crisis, whereas the GE responds immediately. Holonet > IoM bureaucracy.

I'd give this one to the Galactic Empire. They are practically the same size as far as manufacturing and manpower is concerned (it spanned a million+ star systems), have equally powerful weapons, but have far more reliable communications and far faster travel. In addition, they are able to rapidly innovate and develop answers to any enemy (as evidenced by their rapid adaptability to Yuuzhan Vong previously unknown biotechnology).

And when it comes to the sheer balls it takes to do what's necessary, I think Papa Palpatine is more than a match for the most callous of High Lords of Terra.

As far as Jedi vs. Space Marines, it's a tough call. Order 66 showed Jedi to be kind of pansies when faced with a wall of firepower (not to mention they can't deflect solid shells). SM armor would probably slow the lightsaber a bit (much like a bulkhead), and a SM could take quite a few wounds from a saber before going down. As far as Force vs. Warp powers, the light side has little in the way of offensive capability compared to creating vortexes and the like. And anyway, why are Jedi even involved in this conflict? They were all dead in the Galactic Empire, or at least very near to it.

What about Dark jedi? like the one's from the dark forces series? they could definatley do some damage.

IronfrontAlex wrote:What about Dark jedi? like the one's from the dark forces series? they could definatley do some damage.

Not a bad point there, Alex. I think that actually, a SM versus Jedi fight would be more even than most people think. I mean, the Jedi have the force, but the SM have strength and near-insane courage, as well as the ability to resist mind-affecting powers due to iron willpower (to a certain extent of course!)

The various Dark Jedi that Kyle Katarn ran into were not part of the Galactic Empire, and all those events took place after the destruction of the second Death Star (i.e. death of the Emperor and shortly after the Empire itself).

Of course, we also have to consider that individual Jedi vary greatly in power. If we take Starkiller vs. oh let's say a company of Space Marines, I'm giving the win to Starkiller. http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-the-force/101182 See the "Betrayal" trailer for what I mean. Or even the world premiere trailer you can find on youtube.

felixthecat345 wrote:Well, wouldn't a death star get owned anyway? IoM could send in an ironclad ship mounting a planet-killer cannon and pawoosh the DS. Also, couldn't a nova cannon beat the crap out of a DS? They're innacurate but a DS is the size of a small planet.

On ground IoM would undoubtedly win

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:What about Dark jedi? like the one's from the dark forces series? they could definatley do some damage.

Not a bad point there, Alex. I think that actually, a SM versus Jedi fight would be more even than most people think. I mean, the Jedi have the force, but the SM have strength and near-insane courage, as well as the ability to resist mind-affecting powers due to iron willpower (to a certain extent of course!)

But Jedi would be able to doge essentially a rapid fire granade launcher, least i think they could if not force push the bolts back at the SM, maybe a 3+ save for doging ect as well. Not to mention if the force user is in Cloce combat they essentially have C'tan phase weapons. oh and a dasrk force user could choke a SM just as well as a Stormtrooper, armor? ok but you still have a throat right? im he's still choking it.

Omegus wrote:The various Dark Jedi that Kyle Katarn ran into were not part of the Galactic Empire, and all those events took place after the destruction of the second Death Star (i.e. death of the Emperor and shortly after the Empire itself).

Of course, we also have to consider that individual Jedi vary greatly in power. If we take Starkiller vs. oh let's say a company of Space Marines, I'm giving the win to Starkiller. http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-the-force/101182 See the "Betrayal" trailer for what I mean. Or even the world premiere trailer you can find on youtube.

the Dark forces series takes place during and after the galactic civil war. Dark forces 1 and 2 take place during it (in between 4 and 5 and then 5 and 6) while mysteries of the sith to jedi academy take place after the battle of endor. BTW you need to remember there was still a HUGE imperial remnant after the second death star was destroyed. Sure the emperor was dead but there were still many imperial fleets and worlds around the galaxy. And during dark forces 2 the dark jedi jerec had stormtroopers and other imperial tech at his command soo...

Lol. No. Space Marines would just make the Dark Jedi Explode with lots of flamers. Hey you can't block a land Raider's lascannon. They can never face up to mass Artillery power. Only one man can. CHUCK................. Norris.
That and Mace Windu, Yoda, Darth Vader, Kit, and don't forget the totally awesome Dark Jedi That is Luke's wife. If they fought together then they would be able to handle a company of marines plus with some help from a couple hundred Jedi. Space marines have a solid bone mass so i don't think you can joke them. They would Regenerate quicker from the force. And its basically like putting a noobie psyker agianst a Fully Armored and Trained super soldiers that have been known to kill thousands of cultists.

And Not only that but Space Marines are no pushovers. In the books Space marines are RIGGED. They can take on hundreds of orcs by themselves. And not only that but Lasers agianst power armor will not work. Sniper rifle basically would kick jedi ass. Because in the horus hersey art work Space marine's Carried sniper rifles.

I want to point out 1 thing about jedi. They can't move faster than the speed of sound, a bullet can and an imperium las gun shot will be instantanious so jedi are unlikely to dodge them and would find it impossible to dodge them so for them to get into combat in the first place would be pretty problematic. Granted the light sabre would probably be far superior however in one of the books my skywalker gets into combat with a massive worm living in a volcano and hitting it with the lightsabre remove a single scale and causes the lightsabre to be pretty much destroyed so they aren't unstoppable and it seems likely that what would stop them would be heat shielding. Also if we're having fluff in this debate than any grey knights on the battlefield should destroy and GE they come across possibly baring jedi from this depending on the distance they are first spotted at. And concerning the psychic abilities of the imperium and GE seeing as with the danger of wri(warp related injury ) and the fact that a SW runepriest can take down tanks with his mind I would say that imperium probably have psychic powers in the bag especially when considering the number of possible candidates indicated by how the emporer is alive (in a sense)

Asherian Command wrote:Lol. No. Space Marines would just make the Dark Jedi Explode with lots of flamers. Hey you can't block a land Raider's lascannon. They can never face up to mass Artillery power. Only one man can. CHUCK................. Norris.
That and Mace Windu, Yoda, Darth Vader, Kit, and don't forget the totally awesome Dark Jedi That is Luke's wife. If they fought together then they would be able to handle a company of marines plus with some help from a couple hundred Jedi. Space marines have a solid bone mass so i don't think you can joke them. They would Regenerate quicker from the force. And its basically like putting a noobie psyker agianst a Fully Armored and Trained super soldiers that have been known to kill thousands of cultists.

And Not only that but Space Marines are no pushovers. In the books Space marines are RIGGED. They can take on hundreds of orcs by themselves. And not only that but Lasers agianst power armor will not work. Sniper rifle basically would kick jedi ass. Because in the horus hersey art work Space marine's Carried sniper rifles.

Bone mass? we're talking about closing the throat passage not breaking the neck here. And are we considering the force to be warp related or affected by warp? i don't think it would be nor would it be as risky to use. Another point look at starkiller and other force users that can mess stufff up (like obiwan throwing around Grevious, Windu crushing his armor, starkiller turning giant droids into metal balls) you don't think a powerful force user couldnt turn a LR into a giant messed up ball and sent it into the nearest titan/superheavy? what about (and i know im using him as too much of an example) starkillers ability to push a star destroyer into the ground? or Yoda's similar ability to make 2 droid transport ships crash into one another. These are not psi powers but bolologic and therefor unaffected by psi hoods.


OH OH and i just realized! what about jedi mind tricks and talking into people's heads? Yes the SMs are so zealous it would pretty much be impossible to trick one because of it's blind faith but what about imperial generals like IG ones? maybe trick an astropath into crashing the ship? ect ect. Jedi tactics can be affected even moreso off the battlefield.


and for the poster who mentioned the mara jade worm thing? There is the expanded universe Yzzang Vong war where this cretures used organic tech and were resistant to both force powers and lightsabers

IronfrontAlex wrote:the Dark forces series takes place during and after the galactic civil war. Dark forces 1 and 2 take place during it (in between 4 and 5 and then 5 and 6) while mysteries of the sith to jedi academy take place after the battle of endor. BTW you need to remember there was still a HUGE imperial remnant after the second death star was destroyed. Sure the emperor was dead but there were still many imperial fleets and worlds around the galaxy. And during dark forces 2 the dark jedi jerec had stormtroopers and other imperial tech at his command soo...

Dark Forces 1 did not have Dark Jedi. Dark Forces 2 takes place one year after Return of the Jedi. And the discussion is Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire, not the Remnant. The Emperor used the Sith version of battle meditation to direct a large portion of his forces, which is why they fell into great disarray after his death, and the Rebellion started making enormous strides rather than tiny guerrilla-style wins here and there. Of course, Vader's penchant of executing talented commanders for minor errors kind of gutted their talent pool.

And my bad, I was mistaken about Jerek's affiliation, he was a member of Palpatine's Inquisitorius (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitorius). That being said, even assuming that's not a comprehensive list, there were only a few dozen of these Inquisitors, and most of them had their own clandestine projects they were working on. It's certainly nothing compared to the army of thousands of Jedi Knights the Old Republic had at its behest, so I don't think they would make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things (note I still think the GE would win this overall).

Although if we're talking purely a ground battle with absolutely no air superiority elements, and no logistical limitations, it'd be interesting to pit the Emperor, Vader, and their best Inquisitors vs. every Chapter Master and Company Captain.