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Omegus wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:the Dark forces series takes place during and after the galactic civil war. Dark forces 1 and 2 take place during it (in between 4 and 5 and then 5 and 6) while mysteries of the sith to jedi academy take place after the battle of endor. BTW you need to remember there was still a HUGE imperial remnant after the second death star was destroyed. Sure the emperor was dead but there were still many imperial fleets and worlds around the galaxy. And during dark forces 2 the dark jedi jerec had stormtroopers and other imperial tech at his command soo...

Dark Forces 1 did not have Dark Jedi. Dark Forces 2 takes place one year after Return of the Jedi. And the discussion is Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire, not the Remnant. The Emperor used the Sith version of battle meditation to direct a large portion of his forces, which is why they fell into great disarray after his death, and the Rebellion started making enormous strides rather than tiny guerrilla-style wins here and there. Of course, Vader's penchant of executing talented commanders for minor errors kind of gutted their talent pool.

And my bad, I was mistaken about Jerek's affiliation, he was a member of Palpatine's Inquisitorius (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitorius). That being said, even assuming that's not a comprehensive list, there were only a few dozen of these Inquisitors, and most of them had their own clandestine projects they were working on. It's certainly nothing compared to the army of thousands of Jedi Knights the Old Republic had at its behest, so I don't think they would make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things (note I still think the GE would win this overall).

Although if we're talking purely a ground battle with absolutely no air superiority elements, and no logistical limitations, it'd be interesting to pit the Emperor, Vader, and their best Inquisitors vs. every Chapter Master and Company Captain.

It would be very very interesting. But i see people like palpatine and yoda going out in a hail of BS5 bolter fire; even though they would probably be off the battlefield. Vader, young obiwan, Maul, Katarn, Windu, Starkiller basically the jedi powerhouses would kill in CC against chapter masters much like a pheonix (sp?) lord would. No clunky armor and with probably better movement than a CM im thinking they would have higher initiative and WS would be better if not at least on par. Granted we wouldnt know if power weapons could block lightsabers (im assuming they would) and agaisnt most edge like saber hits the SM could take a whole lot more damage than these force users (with or without a personal shield i doubt Katarn is going to be bale to live through a power glaive vulkan thingy through the chest). I would say it would be a close fight but the jedi/sith would win that one.

Palpatine wouldn't be touched by that bolter fire, since he's certainly faster than any of those people except maybe Windu (it could easily be argued he lost that fight on purpose). Yoda is quite the powerhouse as well.

Omegus wrote:Palpatine wouldn't be touched by that bolter fire, since he's certainly faster than any of those people except maybe Windu (it could easily be argued he lost that fight on purpose). Yoda is quite the powerhouse as well.

He's right, you know. Palpatine and Yoda are combat beasts.

except a Jedi/sith can only block so many incoming rounds and he will get tired eventually.

Yoda could block an incoming tank round, but he would be vulnerable while doing so.



i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

Grey Templar wrote:except a Jedi/sith can only block so many incoming rounds and he will get tired eventually.

Yoda could block an incoming tank round, but he would be vulnerable while doing so.


i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

That's a good point; Jedi/Sith cannot block every round fired at them, and it only takes one shot to bring them down.

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

This is why I think the GE would win. The IoM still relies upon a naturally grown guardsmen wHile the IoM has a much more quickly replaced clones.

yeah, you can only block the rounds that are in a straight line(unless you put up a force shield) and if you do that with a Bolter round then you are in for quite a shock.

especially if you don't encounter rifles that fire exploding rounds. Rounds that sometimes have Mutagenic acid or Boiling hot plasma come out of them when they go pop.



also none of the Wars in the movies have ever been on the scale that the wars in 40k are fought on.

a single battle with a few thousand troopers may decide the fate of a planet in the Star Wars universe.

in the 40K universe a planetary batle will often involve Hundreds of thousands of soldiers on both sides. the Impierium of Man reglarley fights Ork invasions numbering in the Millions. How many Clones did Kamino originally produce to fight the Seperatists? 500,000 with a Million following after a fairly short time. the IoM, while it would take a good amount of time to get things started, once forces were joined could pump easily 1/2 a million men to a single planet every few weeks. they could do this to dozens of planets before they reached a point of maximum escalation ability.


once the IoM pain train is started it is unstoppable. the Empire would have to be producing Clones at a rate of nearly 1 million troopers every 6 months to even hope of stemming the tide. they might have a few years to produce a reserve, but they would quickly use it up.

and Yes, the Empire still uses Clones as Stormtroopers. the 501st is still entirely made up of Fett clones. they switched to multiple genetic templates and began production on other planets after a Clone rebellion on Kamino. the Empire also supplements its clones by recruiting normal humans, typically those who have graduated from the Space Acadamy and they are used as Fighter pilots.


the problem is the Empire probably wouldn't realize just how many soldiers it would need to fight the IoM before it was too late. the Impierial Army would be sent out, it would sustain heavy casualities(even if the SW tech is "better" then IoM tech), casualities would get replaced, but a meat grinder would result and eventually the sheer numbers of IG, combined with lightining strikes by SM chapters would trash the Empires army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

focusedfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

This is why I think the GE would win. The IoM still relies upon a naturally grown guardsmen wHile the IoM has a much more quickly replaced clones.

clones still take 9 years to grow to fighting age. the IoMs natural reproductive rate would far outstrip the abilities to clone troopers. even if the Empire had a Dozen worlds producing a Million clones annualy the IoM has a Million worlds that it can draw upon for manpower.

the IoM can raise a Million men in 2 months and it can do this for a practically unlimited amount of time. it takes the Empire 9 years to raise the equilivent amount of men.



also SMs would conduct raids on any cloning worlds rather quickly. since the Empire couldn't detect the IoM ships when they are in Warp space they would have no warning and the SMs could be on the ground within 18 minutes of attaining orbit.

Both Empires are similar in size and population, although the IoM is probably more efficient at churning out doodz to set us up the bomb in your base. However, we're assuming a ground battle on one planet here. Since we've pretty much established the GE's superiority when it comes to space combat (much faster, completely safe travel, equal power guns, more powerful super-weapons), how would the IoM bring reinforcements to the planet?

And Palpatine doesn't need to deflect the bolter rounds with his saber, since he'd know which rounds would pass him by, which to dodge, and which to deflect with the force (Yoda being similarly gifted). After all, Vader didn't bother blocking or dodging laser bolts, he just caught them with his hands, and he was maybe 3/4ths of Palpatine's power. And I think bringing up Starkiller is unfair; if we reference the trailer I posted on the previous page, he would destroy a chapter single-handedly.

If the conflict is limited to Space Marines + Titan Legions vs. Stormtroopers with walker support, however, the battle would go to the IoM hands down.

Omegus wrote:Both Empires are similar in size and population, although the IoM is probably more efficient at churning out doodz to set us up the bomb in your base. However, we're assuming a ground battle on one planet here. Since we've pretty much established the GE's superiority when it comes to space combat, how would they bring reinforcements to the planet?

Erm, I dispute that assertion. . .

Have you seen the size reference chart? An imperial Star Destroyer, the top-of-the-line capital ship of the Empire, is about half the size of an IoM battleship. Granted, a Super Star Destroyer is much, much larger. . . but there are very, very few Super Star Destroyers.

I think in a protracted space campaign the Empire might be able to bring superiority of numbers to bear, but in a single battle the IoM's larger, better-protected and more heavily-armed starships crush the Empire's ships.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, you can only block the rounds that are in a straight line(unless you put up a force shield) and if you do that with a Bolter round then you are in for quite a shock.

especially if you don't encounter rifles that fire exploding rounds. Rounds that sometimes have Mutagenic acid or Boiling hot plasma come out of them when they go pop.



also none of the Wars in the movies have ever been on the scale that the wars in 40k are fought on.

a single battle with a few thousand troopers may decide the fate of a planet in the Star Wars universe.

in the 40K universe a planetary batle will often involve Hundreds of thousands of soldiers on both sides. the Impierium of Man reglarley fights Ork invasions numbering in the Millions. How many Clones did Kamino originally produce to fight the Seperatists? 500,000 with a Million following after a fairly short time. the IoM, while it would take a good amount of time to get things started, once forces were joined could pump easily 1/2 a million men to a single planet every few weeks. they could do this to dozens of planets before they reached a point of maximum escalation ability.


once the IoM pain train is started it is unstoppable. the Empire would have to be producing Clones at a rate of nearly 1 million troopers every 6 months to even hope of stemming the tide. they might have a few years to produce a reserve, but they would quickly use it up.

and Yes, the Empire still uses Clones as Stormtroopers. the 501st is still entirely made up of Fett clones. they switched to multiple genetic templates and began production on other planets after a Clone rebellion on Kamino. the Empire also supplements its clones by recruiting normal humans, typically those who have graduated from the Space Acadamy and they are used as Fighter pilots.


the problem is the Empire probably wouldn't realize just how many soldiers it would need to fight the IoM before it was too late. the Impierial Army would be sent out, it would sustain heavy casualities(even if the SW tech is "better" then IoM tech), casualities would get replaced, but a meat grinder would result and eventually the sheer numbers of IG, combined with lightining strikes by SM chapters would trash the Empires army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

focusedfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

This is why I think the GE would win. The IoM still relies upon a naturally grown guardsmen wHile the IoM has a much more quickly replaced clones.

clones still take 9 years to grow to fighting age. the IoMs natural reproductive rate would far outstrip the abilities to clone troopers. even if the Empire had a Dozen worlds producing a Million clones annualy the IoM has a Million worlds that it can draw upon for manpower.

the IoM can raise a Million men in 2 months and it can do this for a practically unlimited amount of time. it takes the Empire 9 years to raise the equilivent amount of men.



also SMs would conduct raids on any cloning worlds rather quickly. since the Empire couldn't detect the IoM ships when they are in Warp space they would have no warning and the SMs could be on the ground within 18 minutes of attaining orbit.

1)The GE unlike the IoM does have the tech to shield their troops. If the idiotic gungans can have it then so would the GE.

2) You are ignoring the process of raising those troops. Despite your claim otherwise, The IoM does not have an unending source of new recruits. The number of recruits is strictly balanced to maintain production levels.

3)Each crusade is given a specific requisition of units and troops. If the amount of the requisition needs ro be changed it will take several lifetimes to get the approval through the bueacracy. Then there is the training, Marshalling of these new forces, acquiring transport, and subsequent travel time yo deploy.

4)Jedi/Sith would forsee the attacks and destroy the SM's as they emerged from the warp.


Edge goes to the GE

Do I have to say this again? Bullets are faster than sound. If you fire a hail of them if someone dodges one they hit another, if they get hit atall their dead. And no living organism could change directon that rapidly even if they did know the shot was coming before hand because you can lessen an impact from landing after a jump but the force involved in moving out the way of a bullet would likely cause many breaks and like I said all you'd need is constant fire. you can't dodge a wall of bullets. Also I'd like to see a jedi's reaction to a vortex grenade.

And lasers are the speed of light, and yet their reflexes allow them to bat them away with impunity.

you slice a bolt in half. it will completely disappear or explode. in the latter you are wounded or you concentration lost. Heavy bolter: shell cut in half, each half still moving, charge may ignite, somehow hot looking quite so good. No natter how fast you are you also can't be in two places at once so a hail of bullets only requires a few to be travelling simultaneously to remove a jedi from existence.

focusedfire wrote:
1)The GE unlike the IoM does have the tech to shield their troops. If the idiotic gungans can have it then so would the GE.

the shield tech is a definite advantage, but the IoM could drop them with weight of fire pretty quickly, also SW shield tech doesn't stop solid objects like missiles and bullets, only energy weapons(battle cannon barrage FTW )[/b]

2) You are ignoring the process of raising those troops. Despite your claim otherwise, The IoM does not have an unending source of new recruits. The number of recruits is strictly balanced to maintain production levels.

[b]True, they don't have an unending supply of troops(Darn close), but as i said before the Empire probably couldn't increase the production to meet the need before the IoM overwhealmed them

3)Each crusade is given a specific requisition of units and troops. If the amount of the requisition needs ro be changed it will take several lifetimes to get the approval through the bueacracy. Then there is the training, Marshalling of these new forces, acquiring transport, and subsequent travel time yo deploy.

true, Dat

4)Jedi/Sith would forsee the attacks and destroy the SM's as they emerged from the warp.

ummmm, No. Battle Barges and Strike cruisers are much larger, have thicker armour, better shields(can stop solid objects) and many more guns then any Empire ships and they could easily retreat before being destroyed. AND We are talking the Empire here, No Jedi for starters and Palpatine and Vader can't be everywhere at once and they would have to be on the planet that was about to be attacked. the message would get there too late.


Edge goes to the GE

@Grey Templar: That was pretty fast shooting there

Jedi in 40k. high initiative, power weapon, high attacks, good leadership, good strength. Low toughness, 1 at max 2 wounds, no armour save, 4 or 3+ invul from reflexes? nothing to protect from instant death. perhaps 12 in assault. Well think how many shots are really needed. only a very small number on the battlefield.

Also imperium of man from what era? pre or post Horus Heresy?

Grey Templar wrote:
the shield tech is a definite advantage, but the IoM could drop them with weight of fire pretty quickly, also SW shield tech doesn't stop solid objects like missiles and bullets, only energy weapons(battle cannon barrage FTW )[/b]

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

Grey Templar wrote:
[b]ummmm, No. Battle Barges and Strike cruisers are much larger, have thicker armour, better shields(can stop solid objects) and many more guns then any Empire ships and they could easily retreat before being destroyed. AND We are talking the Empire here, No Jedi for starters and Palpatine and Vader can't be everywhere at once and they would have to be on the planet that was about to be attacked. the message would get there too late.

Jedi/Sith do not need to be everywhere. They Forsee the problem before it occurs and then using the GE's efficient/near-instantaneous communication systems they send a strike force that uses a reliable FtL to get the units where they need to be. BTW, Imperial fluff says that comming out of warp creates a period of vulnerability for the IoM battle fleets.

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

only when the GE is behind shields and unless their front line is just behind the shield it'd be easy enough to walk through it making it useless or jut knock out the generator with a different sort of weapon e.g. kinetic (like a barrage of battlecannon shells) or thermal (as in delivered by plasma from, lets say a plasma destructor) or by using a missile bombardment or even better a couple of vortex missiles shot from far behind the lines tearing the target to pieces.

BTW, Imperial fluff says that comming out of warp creates a period of vulnerability for the IoM battle fleets.

current spacetime theories suggest the by using FTL travel the battle would have been over for several thousand years when they got there

focusedfire wrote:So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

Vader sends in Starkiller, Starkiller kills everyone, battle ends.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

rowan341 wrote:

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

To exactly the same extent that the Empire's own weapons don't work, since they are ALL energy-based and ALL blocked by shields. If anything, the IoM will have an advantage over the Empire's normal foes, because many of their weapons are kinetic in nature.

your miss-quoting me. look up the page a bit and you will see I was quoting someone else in haste as I have an exam tomorrow and I am going to get some rest now. I am going to check back here tomorrow.

rowan341 wrote:

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

only when the GE is behind shields and unless their front line is just behind the shield it'd be easy enough to walk through it making it useless or jut knock out the generator with a different sort of weapon e.g. kinetic (like a barrage of battlecannon shells) or thermal (as in delivered by plasma from, lets say a plasma destructor) or by using a missile bombardment or even better a couple of vortex missiles shot from far behind the lines tearing the target to pieces.

Spin it how you like, it is a huge advantage and the GE has KE weapons that they wold be firing out along with there energy weapons.

rowan341 wrote:
current spacetime theories suggest the by using FTL travel the battle would have been over for several thousand years when they got there

Fine the Hyperspace which does not have this problem.

BTW, Hows that 10% of toyr forces lost to the warp working for you?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

To exactly the same extent that the Empire's own weapons don't work, since they are ALL energy-based and ALL blocked by shields. If anything, the IoM will have an advantage over the Empire's normal foes, because many of their weapons are kinetic in nature.

1)Untrue, The GE is full of KE weapons.

2)May be, theGE uses sequencers to allow for shooting out. Failing that they stick the weapons barrel throught the shield.

Did someone in this thread just say a Vortex missile would be ineffective against Empire vechiles?
XD
That is probaly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. !!!!!!CONGRATS YOU GET THE DUMBASS AWARD!!!!!

Let me set this straight. Their weapons in the Star wars universe use lasers. Basically Lascannons on walkers. Ion Cannons are stun guns basically they are massive EMP weapons. But they won't work on Void Shields. As it seems that they are powered by Warp Generators. Not Eletrical cores. Plasma Cores are found in Some Imperial Navy Ships.
Ok AND NO USING SPACE VECHILES!
ONLY GROUND WARFARE!
READ THE DAMN RULES!
Also the Space Marines would just fire a Plasma Cannon and bomb a Jedi is dead. Ever Since this plasma bolt moves faster than the speed of SOUND. No living being psyker or not can move that fast. Only one being can but that's not the point. The Point is no one can move the speed of sound. Or else you would die from super speed movement. Superheroes can but they are bloody comics. Anyway the Imperial guardsmen could turn but the thing is that Why would they follow a Person that they were at war with and were killing their people? They are basically two opposites. One stood for reason and hate and corruption. The other the survival of the human race and its unification.

Precognition trumps a speed of sound projectile, although a few devastator squads combining fire would undoubtedly fry their target regardless of whether he sees it coming or not.

So as I said before:

Limited (unrealistic) ground war --> Imperium
Galactic-scale conflict --> Empire

Ok so Imperial won. But I would have disagree. They are evenly matched when it comes to Space Battles.

It would become a battle of logistics, in which the Empire is far superior. Significantly faster and far less risky travel, near instantaneous communication over massive distances, and their planet-destroying-level weapons are far more effective.

Failbaddon's Planet Killer took about 20 minutes to destroy it, the Death Star took about 10 seconds and most of that was "commencing primary ignition".

No it takes targeting. And not only that but the imperium has far more fire power in its regular fighters. Ok. One ship filled with high teenagers took out the death star. I don't think the Empire has a chance against the pilots of the Imperial Navy..

I just remembered this. In 40K 1"=3' This mwans thayt the majority of the IoM's weapons have an effective range of 226 feet or less. Only a giant mortar, the Basilisk, and the Deathstrike can shoot further than a foot ball field.

I believe the visuals in the The Empire Strike Back point to the GE having weapons of a greater range than the IoM.

i belive we are comparing the Fluff, NOT the rules as Star Wars doesn't exist in an equilivent gaming system.

focusedfire wrote:I just remembered this. In 40K 1"=3' This mwans thayt the majority of the IoM's weapons have an effective range of 226 feet or less. Only a giant mortar, the Basilisk, and the Deathstrike can shoot further than a foot ball field.

that's to make the game playable as otherwise huge tables would be needed and it would be impractical so fluff is the only thing to go by for ranges.

And just out of interest how mobile were the death stars because they seemed pretty stationary to me. Oh I forgot to say one thing that people are apparently missing in the whole space battle that wasn't even included by the OP. FTL or "hyperdrive" means you travel very fast but still have to pass through space on the way so any stellar objects would cause huge problems where as the imperium warp drive technology seems to be more along the lines of enter here, appear here not occupying the in between space. And so although IoM does suffer losses in the warp it does allow them to avoid any objects like for example any sort of ambushes or asteroid fields and the like where as "hyperdrive" would require the speed to be dropped to navigate around. I don't care how much armour is on a ship a rock the size of a building hitting it at speeds faster than light will cause major damage

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

AT-ATs aren't elite. They are a dime a dozen assault transports like IoM's common chimera. GE has not titan comparable.