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Monster Rain wrote:The bummer about those peripheral model companies are that their products aren't technically allowed at GW events.

I've never seen anyone called on it, but the potential is there.

So don't go to "official" GW events. AFAIK only GW GT events and events in GW stores (of which there are an ever-decreasing number following the switch to one-man stores) are affected. In the UK, Oz and the US much more gaming happens in non-GW-official contexts than in "official" ones anyhow.

If you are at an event held at an indie store, then there is the opportunity to convince the owner to stock the alternative brand. Most owners will be interested if they think they can generate sales, and given Mantic's lower price point, it may not take much to convince them of the benefits of stocking them!

It's YOUR hobby, take control of it!

Damn right, the current generation of other lines like MANTIC and others mean there is more options than ever to deviate with the GW Lines. Can you use WHFB rules with your Mantic Dwarfs? Of course you can! So if we continue down this road, GW is going to have to get more competitive and reduce prices, on certain lines. Space Marines will still cost a bomb though!

It is simple really, the more competition the more you have to fight for your market share. Who benefits? Us the Gamer. I stop sometimes and look at the stuff I see daily on Dakka and I think wow (where was all this when I was younger, we never even heard of Airbrushes in the 90's) , we are in a golden age of gaming (regardless of all the RT enthuisasts and the /tg/ who say it was better in the old days I say WTF get a pair of eyes and look around you!).

Welcome to the Golden Age of Gaming, get your paintbrushes Ready, after all there is a War on!

Right with you mwnciboo. If Mantic do expand and do future stuff they will give GW a run for their money. Simpler rules, which offer comething slightly different, cheaper models, same size, easier for kids to get to grips with the rules, tournament chess clock style play.

It does only ticks boxes for me, I cannot see many negatives. Just trying to order a ticket for their open Day on 9 Oct but their website is complete gak.

mwnciboo wrote:Damn right, the current generation of other lines like MANTIC and others mean there is more options than ever to deviate with the GW Lines. Can you use WHFB rules with your Mantic Dwarfs? Of course you can! So if we continue down this road, GW is going to have to get more competitive and reduce prices, on certain lines. Space Marines will still cost a bomb though!

I'll start by saying that I love the Fantasy fluff and models. But if I were to be really critical, they might find it worthwhile to drop the line or sell it off. All their unique IP is tied into 40K, Fantasy is full of orc and goblins and elves, and a great deal of that is unenforceable from a legal point of view. Unique characters are their property, but you don't have to look far to find other manufacturers producing easily compatible model lines. Whereas 40K is much more their beast, there are other SF lines but most do not closely resemble 40K, and certainly only GW can make Space Marines. If tough choices had to be made in future they could look to axe Fantasy over 40K.

I agree with this point in part, your premise is fundamentally sound and the business case and IP is spot on. I think they would consider it but I really wouldn't be sure if they would follow through with such an idea. Would gamers feel like they betrayed by GW? I still choke up alittle when someone mentions Squats .
GW could itself schism, it happened quite a bit in the early days Ali Morrison and others setting up various companies. Would someone start their own WHFB compatible range or would they take the idea completely as the IP is not in place? Warmachine is already proving that GW has backed the wrong Horse over the last decade, Blackpowder, Flames of War and other systems have rocketed in popularity. LOTR anyone? Is it still going? does anyone care? It was half decade fad, it might get some more interest in the Hobbit, but in the main it will go back to the Unique slot in the intelligent young boys dust cupboard, right next to Homers Illiyiad and Tolstoy. Tolkien sold alot of books, but GW has not sold anywhere as many Models!

You are correct that the IP for 40K is exceptionally unique, I think Imperial Guard can be converted from other sources as can orks but every other race is far more difficult. I did allude to this in my other post, that SM will still cost a bomb as no one else can produce anything remotely like them, GW would consolidate on 40k and subsidise WHFB. It would a be Horus Heresy level betrayal if GW dropped WHFB because of the competition, imagine the repurcussions from the gaming community. THey would survive it, and move on but alot of people I know would probably find it unforgivable.

I don't think elves in space is that hard to copy.

I dare you to do it, I give you 24 months before GW try some kind of move. Encroach on their 40K IP and they'll be after you, it really is the Golden Goose.

GW doesn't own elves, they don't own space. You can't make Eldar, but they don't own space elves any more than they own space orcs.

Vene wrote:GW doesn't own elves, they don't own space. You can't make Eldar, but they don't own space elves any more than they own space orcs.

What they can and can't own isn't that important. The real question is could you afford to defend yourself if they started litigation? Would you be willing to take the risk of them winning a court case against you, and you then owing them however many hundreds of thousands in damages. I think for most; it's just not worth the hassle to step on their toes.

And yet, for all they don't own 'Space Elves' in order to sell any 'kind-of-likes' you'd have to make them pretty similar, which is where the legal side kicks you in the Nads big time.

It makes competition extremely difficult, unless you have a very different product. I am sure Mantic will come under fire from GW at some point, they just want to find something they can use against them effectively. Good on Mantic though, they are braver than me.

If they wanted to shut down Mantic, it wouldn't be very hard. The thing is Mantic's making a competing game system to Warhammer Fantasy, and providing their models for such.

The actual design of the models is also very dissimilar. At least insofar as making them similar to GW's, rather than the generic fantasy archetypes.

Plus: Mantic's based in a freaking castle. GW don't want none.

Kanluwen wrote:If they wanted to shut down Mantic, it wouldn't be very hard.

Manic are doing nothing that GW can use legally against them. And this isn't a "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us" argument it's just plain reality. GW doesn't own the fantasy genre, I don't know where this belief comes from that GW are all powerful and can tell everyone else what they can and cannot do in fantasy modelling - loads of companies make 28mm fantasy miniatures.

There are plenty of fantasy 28mm figures out there, Mantic are just making skeletons and elves in 28mm. 40K is different, to make models that look close enough to proxy for GW ones you are probably violating IP, if you make something that looks suspiciously like their space marines you could be in trouble because their space marines are very uinque to them. Making goblins and dwarves for fantasy isn't an issue as many other companies have done. This is the problem with making models in such a generic field. If GW want to shut Mantic down they'll have to compete with them in the marketplace not in the courtroom.

Companies like Harlequin and Heartbreaker miniatures made fantasy ranges that were easily compatible with Warhammer and they were not 'shut down' by GW, they just lasted some years and got wound up or sold on and it'll be interesting to see how Mantic manage.

*points at Mantic's Berserker models*

While Mantic isn't doing "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us", they were early on placing themselves as a company that makes models that are easily usable in Warhammer Fantasy.

Until Mantic's game system comes out, they're slightly more vulnerable. I get a sneaking suspicion they're going to be left alone though, unless they keep rubbing in the fact that Alessio Cavatore now works there.

If they try to bank on "Oh, we have a Games Workshop designer designing our game!" there might be an issue.

Kanluwen wrote:*points at Mantic's Berserker models*

While Mantic isn't doing "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us", they were early on placing themselves as a company that makes models that are easily usable in Warhammer Fantasy.

Who cares. GW doesn't own the general image of a shirtless dwarf or a fully armored dwarf. With the way you are suggesting it a company that makes humans better watch it out as the can be used as empire for WHFB. There is no issue here and same with Chapter House despite all the wasted hot air from this forum. If GW can slap C&D on silly little forums that take in $5 advertising revenue they sure as hell would have dealt with Chapter House\ AofW\ Mantic with an extremely large legal hammer by now - they would had to in order to protect their assets. So to continue to suggest otherwise makes zero sense and shows a lack of reality of modern day business practices.

The difference being a $5 advertising revenue is not a threat to their consumer base is it? Mantic quite clearly is! Business is Dog eat Dog, Fact, GW has Shares Fact, Profit comes ahead of all other concerns, fact, even having a soul...

mwnciboo wrote:The difference being a $5 advertising revenue is not a threat to their consumer base is it? Mantic quite clearly is! Business is Dog eat Dog, Fact, GW has Shares Fact, Profit comes ahead of all other concerns, fact, even having a soul...

Ummmm you need to read a bit more carefully.

The point was GW can and does C&D a website for small ad revenue.

If it does that it would have dealt with Mantic\ AofW and Chapter House by now if it could.

They haven't, ergo GW haven't yet found a way to stop them.

Therefore the frequent and pointless posturing in this forum about Mantic\ AofW and Chapter House is a waste of time. Do you honestly expect all three companies to have invested so heavily without getting legal clearance first? The fact they exist and have existed for so long is because GW legal cannot touch them yet. For anyone to suggest otherwise doesn;t understand how business works.

edit for crap writing and poor grammar

Agree with fullheadofhair,

Ronnie worked for GW for 15 years so he knows everything about GW including all that GW has IP over and what they don't.
He will tread, probably, a fine line but, as others have said, GW do not own some races and he will steer clear of others completely such as SM.
Most other races, undead, knights, men, dwarves, elves etc all exist elsewhere anyway and have no copyright.

He's not daft and his angle is quite different. I hope he does well and Mantic become a serious contender for No1 game system in a few years time.

He can even do a complete makeover of WWII stuff and challenge Flames of War, for example, as none of that it copyrighted so he can go in any direction he feels fit really.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*points at Mantic's Berserker models*

While Mantic isn't doing "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us", they were early on placing themselves as a company that makes models that are easily usable in Warhammer Fantasy.

Who cares. GW doesn't own the general image of a shirtless dwarf or a fully armored dwarf. With the way you are suggesting it a company that makes humans better watch it out as the can be used as empire for WHFB. There is no issue here and same with Chapter House despite all the wasted hot air from this forum. If GW can slap C&D on silly little forums that take in $5 advertising revenue they sure as hell would have dealt with Chapter House\ AofW\ Mantic with an extremely large legal hammer by now - they would had to in order to protect their assets. So to continue to suggest otherwise makes zero sense and shows a lack of reality of modern day business practices.

First off:
It's never been "Oh, this site is making $5 advertising revenue--slap a C&D on them!". Never has that happened. It's always been relating to either: A)The site is hosting content they shouldn't(such as boardgamegeeks hosting entire rules sets for games; including ones that GW no longer owns the licenses to which they'd still be able to get their pants sued off because of them being out there, Curse falsely promoting a site that they bought out as a "fan site" and raking in thousands if not more in advertising revenue a year, etc) or B) The site directly breaching GW's copywritten material/competing with a GW licensee(Blood Bowl site comes to mind here, as they promoted themselves as the "official" Blood Bowl home). So you can get that crap out of your head right now.

Second off:
Context matters.
Chapterhouse doesn't advertise their stuff as an "alternative" to Games Workshop kits, they advertise themselves as a supplement. There's a small difference here.
Avatars of War does the same, but in a more roundabout way with the fact that they only create character models.

Mantic had positioned themselves, on day one, as a "direct alternative to Games Workshop's models at a cheaper cost that even has the correct weapon options for usage in Warhammer Fantasy". It's only with the acquisition of Alessio Cavatore that they've really gone towards making their own game system happen. Which means that I highly doubt GW will go after them since while the models are nice...they're not really a threat. Especially not before they ever have an actual rules system down.

Kanluwen wrote:

First off:
It's never been "Oh, this site is making $5 advertising revenue--slap a C&D on them!". Never has that happened. It's always been relating to either: A)The site is hosting content they shouldn't(such as boardgamegeeks hosting entire rules sets for games; including ones that GW no longer owns the licenses to which they'd still be able to get their pants sued off because of them being out there, Curse falsely promoting a site that they bought out as a "fan site" and raking in thousands if not more in advertising revenue a year, etc) or B) The site directly breaching GW's copywritten material/competing with a GW licensee(Blood Bowl site comes to mind here, as they promoted themselves as the "official" Blood Bowl home). So you can get that crap out of your head right now.

Not the point I was making. Once again the point I am making is if GW can expend the time and energy on multiple small websites for breach and misuse the sure as heck would have done something about AofW/ Mantic and CH.

Second off:
Context matters.
Chapterhouse doesn't advertise their stuff as an "alternative" to Games Workshop kits, they advertise themselves as a supplement. There's a small difference here.
Avatars of War does the same, but in a more roundabout way with the fact that they only create character models.

Bollocks. It is nothing to do with "context". CH is living off GW IP but have done it the smart way and GW cannot touch them. That is the point I was making.

AofW are by and large producing generic fantasy models - good elf & bad elf, Dwarf King and Minataur etc. GW doesn't own those images. Nothing to do with "context". I will accept that their daemon champion is skirting a little close.

Mantic had positioned themselves, on day one, as a "direct alternative to Games Workshop's models at a cheaper cost that even has the correct weapon options for usage in Warhammer Fantasy". It's only with the acquisition of Alessio Cavatore that they've really gone towards making their own game system happen. Which means that I highly doubt GW will go after them since while the models are nice...they're not really a threat. Especially not before they ever have an actual rules system down.

Total bollocks. It doesn't matter what they look like. GW does not own the image of a dwarf with a hammer or a dwarf with a hammer and shield. The fact they can be used for a fantasy game owned by GW is irrelevent.

GW won't go after them coz they cannot. If a small website is worth of a C&D I am sure a company capable of produce regiments of good looking plastic miniatures would definitely be getting a look from GW if they could stop them.

To suggest other wise is makes absolute no sense.

Okay, i'll put my hand up to adding fuel to the fire on this one. I think maybe we've gone a little too far with this one.

The other night I walked in GW with eyeliner and lavender eye shadow. The resident really stupid redshirt (you know the one) comments in a confused way "did both your eyes get punched?" I turned and slyly remarked "No, I'm just f*cking gorgeous." He was like "what are you talking about?" as his entire body clenched uncomfortably and one of the players in the store backs me up saying "he's f*cking gorgeous." Then he said whatever and walked away uncomfortably. I probably should have hit on him to make it worse

Or maybe you should dial your make-up down from "whore".

Ha, it was pretty tame It was lavender sparkles, I didn't even use the two dark shades from the set. I think it was called "Ice princess." XD

Okay, I feel like i'm taking 'shrooms now. I've got mental images of the scissor sisters playing 40k whilst bitch slapping a GW Employee.

What the hell has happened to this thread?

Nurglitch wrote:Or maybe you should dial your make-up down from "whore".

I rarely say this, but that made me laugh out loud, as it were.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:The other night I walked in GW with eyeliner and lavender eye shadow. The resident really stupid redshirt (you know the one) comments in a confused way "did both your eyes get punched?" I turned and slyly remarked "No, I'm just f*cking gorgeous." He was like "what are you talking about?" as his entire body clenched uncomfortably and one of the players in the store backs me up saying "he's f*cking gorgeous." Then he said whatever and walked away uncomfortably. I probably should have hit on him to make it worse

Well, as long as you were f*cking gorgeous, what's the problem?

Cannerus, the Redshirt was uncomfortable because it was a GW Specialty Product that they don't openly support anymore. It's likely he was trying to asking you to leave but couldn't, because he was pitching one at the same time

The topic seems to have exhausted itself.

Perhaps we might discuss naval wargames for a while.