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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/01 18:08:18
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Injection molds are a weird expense. A class 101 mold will last over a million units easily. At that level, $800k doesn't look like much. Especially since a second mold only costs $240k (no engineering/quality checking/prototype runs with 105s). So if Bandai is producing 3 million units with 3 class 101 molds, that will cost them maybe 2 million or so, assuming their base mold cost is twice GWs ($480k versus $240k for mats). That's a cool $0.66 on the unit.
If GW runs on a class 102 (which they probably do, but which means the details will fade and act irregular later in the run) and doing a 200k box set run, that $800k ends up looking a lot like $4 on the unit.
And that's why injection molds rock for mass production and blow for small runs!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/01 18:52:59
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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RisingPhoenix wrote:Injection molds are a weird expense. A class 101 mold will last over a million units easily. At that level, $800k doesn't look like much. Especially since a second mold only costs $240k (no engineering/quality checking/prototype runs with 105s). So if Bandai is producing 3 million units with 3 class 101 molds, that will cost them maybe 2 million or so, assuming their base mold cost is twice GWs ($480k versus $240k for mats). That's a cool $0.66 on the unit.
If GW runs on a class 102 (which they probably do, but which means the details will fade and act irregular later in the run) and doing a 200k box set run, that $800k ends up looking a lot like $4 on the unit.
And that's why injection molds rock for mass production and blow for small runs!
-EDIT- Sorry for really going OT, but this is interesting stuff...
Any reason you think that GW opted for the class 102 vs the 101 other than (assumed) decreased capitol cost? Facility availability? Based on your above description, the 101 seems to be a much better long term value - especially considering the hybrid nature of GW's products - it seems to make sense to have baseline product such as Rhinos and Marines made using the more durable mould and add-on products made with the cheaper.
Is there any kind of savings involved when GW recuts a sprue and has a new mould produced? I'm sure that some amount of re-engineering is involved. What are your thoughts on the planned obsolescence of the starter kits? Unless these are recut after the fact - these moulds are designed to be retired (end of lifecycle or not) at the end of the game edition.
Elmodiddly wrote:GW customer service can be more tuned, their business strategy is spot on though considering their latest profits are up on last year.
I'm no economist, but the figure showing that their revenues (adjusted for currency fluctuations) have decreased since 08/09 would seem to indicate that quantity of sales has slipped. Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture... Increased profit is good - increased profit on the back of decreasing total revenue would seem to be a bad trend.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/01 18:55:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/01 21:32:47
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Which may or may or not be a reason for increased focus on recruitment?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/01 23:16:53
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Regular Dakkanaut
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keezus wrote:RisingPhoenix wrote:Injection molds are a weird expense. A class 101 mold will last over a million units easily. At that level, $800k doesn't look like much. Especially since a second mold only costs $240k (no engineering/quality checking/prototype runs with 105s). So if Bandai is producing 3 million units with 3 class 101 molds, that will cost them maybe 2 million or so, assuming their base mold cost is twice GWs ($480k versus $240k for mats). That's a cool $0.66 on the unit.
If GW runs on a class 102 (which they probably do, but which means the details will fade and act irregular later in the run) and doing a 200k box set run, that $800k ends up looking a lot like $4 on the unit.
And that's why injection molds rock for mass production and blow for small runs!
-EDIT- Sorry for really going OT, but this is interesting stuff...
Any reason you think that GW opted for the class 102 vs the 101 other than (assumed) decreased capitol cost? Facility availability? Based on your above description, the 101 seems to be a much better long term value - especially considering the hybrid nature of GW's products - it seems to make sense to have baseline product such as Rhinos and Marines made using the more durable mould and add-on products made with the cheaper.
Is there any kind of savings involved when GW recuts a sprue and has a new mould produced? I'm sure that some amount of re-engineering is involved. What are your thoughts on the planned obsolescence of the starter kits? Unless these are recut after the fact - these moulds are designed to be retired (end of lifecycle or not) at the end of the game edition.
I honestly have no idea if they opted for a class 102 over a 101. I can tell you almost certainly they did though. Maybe AoBR is a class 101, that has the volume. Also, in case you're wondering, even 102s fail somewhere in the millions of runs. AoBR is probably fine, as a mold, but in 2 years, the numbers of rejects is going to become very, very high (that's how you know a mold is near the end, btw. Rejection rates from quality control start going up and keep going up). Class 102 is good for up to 1 million units. If you're only going to ever sell 200k-300k, then you'd almost never opt for a 101.
And that's the rub on why 102s. Honestly, are they going to sell a million Dev Squad sprues? Maybe. Are they going to sell a million rhino chassis sprues? Almost certainly (it's in everything), so that one is probably a 101, with the specific additions (whirlwind, etc.) being 102s. Are they going to sell a million Fire Warrior boxes? A million boxes of grots? All together now... noooooooooooo. 102.
The problem isn't 'volume' it's 'selling that volume.' And my analysis is totally incomplete, before you jump to the conclusion that it's clearly better to just sell them cheap.
- First, you have to package them. Ship them. Stock them on shelves. Store them in warehouses. Overproduction is bad.
- Second, this isn't the sort of hobby that encourages large multiple sales to the average person. Take Magic the Gathering. Assume I buy 500 magic cards. A new set comes out. Is there a reason not to buy it? Well, assuming you have the money, why not? Now, Warhammer? How many people have unpainted plastic? Most of us? Thought so.
As you guessed, GW should only make the class 101s for the most universal and commonly used sprues. If you'll notice, every army seems to be developing a standardized body, with accessory sprues, and standardized tank chassis, with specialized weapon sprues. Anything you see popping up time and again? That one will be a 101. Otherwise, 102.
The problem is, how many of those are there? Think about all the sprues a space marine army can take. How many of them are 101s? Probably 3-5. The rest are all going to be 102s.
P.S. The molds wearing out is a feature, not a bug. Trust me, GW likes redesigning models periodically. I assure you, 102s are NOT cheap disposable molds (that's 105s). 103s are the standard 'quick, imprecise part' mold, and its cheaper to use up multiple 103s than it is to get a single 101 - as long as you don't mind the imprecision, of course (when was the last time you complained your plastic dongle on something was off by 1/16"? What if the features on your guardsmen had a 1/16" problem?).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/02 01:17:30
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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@RisingPheonix: Thanks for the reply. I know admittedly nothing about the injection molding business - so all this is pretty interesting to me.
I agree that the retiring of molds seems to fit in with their practice of retooling main lines every 6-8 years (or every 3, if you are Space Marines)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/03 19:34:05
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Storming Storm Guardian
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I swear to krone if i see an apothecary and a harlie doing kung-fu fighting in cartoon i`m gonna take a derringer las-pistol to the head.
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1000 points Nidzilla
1750 Soudias craftowrld (mechanized)
you may field 70 dreadknights and 4 platoons of terminators,but you`re victiory falls in the hands of a cube |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/03 19:36:47
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Come again?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/04 10:42:12
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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He will shot himself If Games Workshop ever go mainstream and make cartoons.
I wouldn't mind If they do violent manga style cartoons with 15-18 rating. That would be acceptable
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/04 12:10:38
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot
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weetyskemian44 wrote:He will shot himself If Games Workshop ever go mainstream and make cartoons.
I wouldn't mind If they do violent manga style cartoons with 15-18 rating. That would be acceptable
Nah i think a cartoon for warhammer/warhammer 40K would be weird. A film's ok but not a cartoon.
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"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command yet you still dare oppose our will. "-Farseer Mirehn Biellann
Armies at 'The Stand-still Point':
Cap'n Waaagggh's warband (Fantasy Orcs) 2250pts. Waaagghhh! in full flow... W-D-L=10-3-3
Hive Fleet Leviathan Strand 1500pts. W-D-L=7-1-2 Nom.
Eldar armies of various sizes W-D-L 26-6-3
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/04 12:48:32
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Regular Dakkanaut
Dudley, UK
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weetyskemian44 wrote:He will shot himself If Games Workshop ever go mainstream and make cartoons.
I wouldn't mind If they do violent manga style cartoons with 15-18 rating. That would be acceptable
I agree with Eldar Own, as I don't think a Anime would be right, no mater what rating you put into it. There are some great Anime films out but I don't think that the style would suit anything GW does. You could probably get away with a cartoon depending on the style but for me CGI all the way
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/04 23:14:23
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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I wont argue with CGI. love it actually- but maybe with real human actors like in that filum beowulf
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/04 23:19:19
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Regular Dakkanaut
Bracknell, Berkshire, England
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weetyskemian44 wrote:but maybe with real human actors like in that filum beowulf
That was what I liked about that film. Before Beowulf, nobody had used real human actors before. It was such an innovation.
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Cheese Elemental wrote:Maybe we should stop talking about fapping before a mod comes in here.
MADE WITH MYBANNERMAKER.COM
HOSTED BY IMGUR.COM
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 12:28:16
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Regular Dakkanaut
Dudley, UK
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weetyskemian44 wrote:I wont argue with CGI. love it actually- but maybe with real human actors like in that filum beowulf
They are kind of doing this with the Ultramarine film as they are using facial capture technology on the voice actors and applying them to the characters in the film
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 12:33:43
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
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WTF is wrong with GW staff members.
Nothing
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Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 12:51:40
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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I actually went to GW on Saturday for the first time in an age. There wasn't anything wrong with the staff. But I really couldn't afford to buy anything and It was a completely teenage boy dominated environment.
The staff dude was helpful and I wouldn't have minded chatting for longer but the teenagers were freaking me out and making me feel old.
It seem to have gotten a lot smaller than the last time I was in. Or maybe I just grew a lot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 13:11:31
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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We call that middle aged spread weety.
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If I am not in my room, is it still my room? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 19:36:22
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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HAH! yeah totally, I was a size 8 last time I went in - not anymore. Not spread as far as the store manager has though!!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 22:22:38
Subject: Re:WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Powerful Irongut
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I'm 17 now, I started playing at 10 (yeah probably too early, but whatever), and in those 7 years I've noticed the staff have generally improved, sure there's one or two donkey-cave staff members at my local GW, but before almost all of them were jerks
But yeah things are too expensive, I've personally listed the things I want to complete my Ogre army and only one thing was cheapest at GW, which was a large metal kit that's not very in demand (Greasus Goldtooth)
Really GW need to lower their price range and work on integrating the old warhammer crowd into the game rather than simply trying to entice teens into the game
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Grimstonefire wrote:I am feeling quite confident that by this time next year I will be holding a new CD model in my hand (07/07/10). Someone can sig that if they want.  |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 22:38:07
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores
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Again, I hear people complaining about the price, I just want to know why everybody thinks that it's overpriced. What are we comparing it to? Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less? I asked earlier in this thread and nobody had a response. I'm not trying to be a GW apologist, I just want to know if the complaint has merit. Because when I look at the prices of miniatures other companies offer I find metal and I find resin and I find minis that are more expensive than GW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/06 23:25:35
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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Well I suppose my thinking the prices are too high is because i buy most of my mini's second hand and I'm careful not to bid to high. I suppose its not really the same as buying new, and doesn't really support the system, but I actually couldn't afford to buy at new prices. Thats all I'm saying. And someones gotta preserve all those lovely old minis
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 12:25:36
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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I guess I am fairly lucky in that I can afford to by Gw products as and when I want [not too much as the mrs soon notices the packages being carried in or delivered!]. Compaired to other things I could be doing (golf, drinking and playing rugby, shooting) wargaming is cheap and keeps me out of trouble. GW was expensive to me when I started collecting minis (1987), even at 50p for a metal dwarf/fighter. But then that was because I didn't get much money (£1/2 a week if I washed the car!) and my parents didn't get me whatever I wanted. :( The only thing that has really changed is me. My earning has risen greatly as has the way in which I value the things I want. I see allot of posters on here that are either under 16, students or low wage earners complaining about the prices or GW gouging, twas always the case as far as my experience goes but I do not see it as GW fault. What I will say is that despite all of the above I could not bring myself to buy anything during a recent trip to Warhammer World. All the precious things I could have wanted and all that was going through my head was "but I can get it for 20% less than that!".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 12:28:32
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 15:57:48
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Stitch Counter
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Vene wrote:Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less?
Exhibit A:
http://www.manticgames.com/
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Cheers
Paul |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 17:28:33
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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Wow thats 50p for a dwarf!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 19:42:38
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores
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Osbad wrote:Vene wrote:Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less?
Exhibit A:
http://www.manticgames.com/
Okay, thank you, that is actually what I wanted to see. I'm not sure if anything there is of interest to me, but at least it shows it's possible to sell the minis at a lower cost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 19:47:26
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
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The bummer about those peripheral model companies are that their products aren't technically allowed at GW events.
I've never seen anyone called on it, but the potential is there.
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Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 20:22:02
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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The Hammer of Witches
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Its a limited range. And I don't like their dwarfs much - but the skeletons are up to standard
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 20:24:11
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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Vene wrote:Again, I hear people complaining about the price, I just want to know why everybody thinks that it's overpriced. What are we comparing it to? Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less? I asked earlier in this thread and nobody had a response. I'm not trying to be a GW apologist, I just want to know if the complaint has merit. Because when I look at the prices of miniatures other companies offer I find metal and I find resin and I find minis that are more expensive than GW.
Most telling is that GW themselves makes detailed, plastic miniatures for significantly less... just look at the LOTR line. Plastic infantry are 45% the cost of their 40k/Fantasy counterparts (20x for $32.75 vs current edition 40k/Fantasy at 10x for $29.75). It narrows with cavalry, but LOTR cav is still cheaper by a 15% margin. As LOTR is a GW product, the level of quality is obviously equivalent.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 20:39:19
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Average Orc Boy
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The thing I find weird about the manager at my store, is that when he goes up to me and asks me a question, (if I were to be looking at something) I'll answer him but like whoever said on here about them being like robots, its more like talking to a wall. the reason I say that is because even though he is asking me a question, he doesnt exactly care for what I have to say, or if he is even paying attention. I dont know why, but I always get this weird vibe ,I guess.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/07 21:00:11
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?
OMG that is quote of the Month. Kirasu FTW!
On a seperate but related issue, do you think that GW Products are over priced because of the ridiculous overheads involved in some of their high street stores? I have a brilliant local independant store. WWW.firestormgames.co. uk and the owner sells alot of product but his GW products are 15% cheaper, his shop is in an Industrial estate and has about 60 tables out back. He stocks lots of different ranges but because he isn't paying high street rent prices and runs it all himself he has little staff costs and a minimal business unit rent. That said he still has to work hard to get a good turn over.
I think if i was in charge of GW I would begin to produce a 2 tier system of production. Boxed glossy stuff teenagers and the high street. For us as a more dedicated bunch, I think we could buy the sprues directly so instead of £29.99 or whatever for Terminators, we could buy a Termie sprue for £9.99 a termie weapons sprue £7.99 (assault or tactical types) a set of bases. They could then mail it directly in a jiffy bag for £19.99 or whatever no bells or whistles or packaging etc. Ok they would need a specialist department and probably 3-4 staff to do it, but it would excellent for all of us who convert etc. Look at the number of the Bitz sites for buying specific parts. I really think GW would cut out alot of middle men make more profit and shut down a few dubious GW Stores around the country. There are plenty of Smaller hobby shops they could help out with sponsorship or somekind of Francise rather than having their own centralised system. GW Stores are Okay, they have just lost their soul and become corporate. It happens to all charming businesses and companies once they get past a certain size. C'est la vie.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 21:52:07
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/08 02:57:32
Subject: WTF is wrong with GW staff members??
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Regular Dakkanaut
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mwnciboo wrote:Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?
OMG that is quote of the Month. Kirasu FTW!
On a seperate but related issue, do you think that GW Products are over priced because of the ridiculous overheads involved in some of their high street stores? I have a brilliant local independant store. WWW.firestormgames.co. uk and the owner sells alot of product but his GW products are 15% cheaper, his shop is in an Industrial estate and has about 60 tables out back. He stocks lots of different ranges but because he isn't paying high street rent prices and runs it all himself he has little staff costs and a minimal business unit rent. That said he still has to work hard to get a good turn over.
I think if i was in charge of GW I would begin to produce a 2 tier system of production. Boxed glossy stuff teenagers and the high street. For us as a more dedicated bunch, I think we could buy the sprues directly so instead of £29.99 or whatever for Terminators, we could buy a Termie sprue for £9.99 a termie weapons sprue £7.99 (assault or tactical types) a set of bases. They could then mail it directly in a jiffy bag for £19.99 or whatever no bells or whistles or packaging etc. Ok they would need a specialist department and probably 3-4 staff to do it, but it would excellent for all of us who convert etc. Look at the number of the Bitz sites for buying specific parts. I really think GW would cut out alot of middle men make more profit and shut down a few dubious GW Stores around the country. There are plenty of Smaller hobby shops they could help out with sponsorship or somekind of Francise rather than having their own centralised system. GW Stores are Okay, they have just lost their soul and become corporate. It happens to all charming businesses and companies once they get past a certain size. C'est la vie.
Yes, lets kill the local gaming store, that'll end well for this hobby.
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