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Made in gb
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot





In the Webway.

All the local(ish) GWs i go to vary in niceness of staff members. None of them are evil, but some i prefer more than others.

Not many of them pressure you to buy anything, when i brought the WHFB rulebook i had quite a long chat with the GW staff member about what's changed and how it might affect game play, he never said "you should buy it" or anything like that. I remeber, ages ago, when i started to get into WHFB playing a demo of skull pass with a staff member, it wasn't too short and was informative, though i remember i rolled dreadfully for my break tests and most of my units ended up fleeing off the board.

So, i conclude from my ramblings that, some GW staff members are nicer than others, and you may just be unlucky that your GW has not-so-nice staff, because in my opinion they're quite nice people.


"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command yet you still dare oppose our will. "-Farseer Mirehn Biellann

Armies at 'The Stand-still Point':

Cap'n Waaagggh's warband (Fantasy Orcs) 2250pts. Waaagghhh! in full flow... W-D-L=10-3-3

Hive Fleet Leviathan Strand 1500pts. W-D-L=7-1-2 Nom.

Eldar armies of various sizes W-D-L 26-6-3

 
   
Made in us
Average Orc Boy






My general Problem with the staff member (the manager) is that I cannot just go in and shop for things, I always feel like there is this dark looming figure shadowing me everywhere I go pressuring me to buy every single thing I look at, Idk how this makes you guys feel, but it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and I dont find the staff member trustworth enough to ask them a question about a certain model and expect an honest answer, all I get is "yah man! theyre awesome!!!, Oh they are so good!, yea! you absolutely need to get it."

and when I barely even touch one fricken thing to look at it I get "so man your gonna get some [insert model name here]? but yea thats my problem with Gw staff members, I understand that they have to sell theyre product but seriously....lighten up.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Did you tell him that you know what you want, and that's all? Any sales person will back off if they meet a firm, "No Thank You." Most will, anyway.

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in us
Average Orc Boy






Ive only actually been in the store about 3-4 times, since the store had barely opened about a month or 2 ago.

but yea this guy is pretty relentless, I dont wanna be too firm though cuz I'd hate to get a bad rep and gain some enemies at the only store that sells Gw products that is close by (about a 15 minute drive from my home).

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Girthman wrote:Ive only actually been in the store about 3-4 times, since the store had barely opened about a month or 2 ago.

but yea this guy is pretty relentless, I dont wanna be too firm though cuz I'd hate to get a bad rep and gain some enemies at the only store that sells Gw products that is close by (about a 15 minute drive from my home).


Firm doesn't mean rude.

Just say that you know exactly what you're looking for, and that's all. I find that communication tends to clear up a lot of this awkwardness.

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





cornwall UK

I'm inclined to agree with gillsplitta. If GW are going to price the hobbyist out of the market then we can all go ebay shopping and to hell with profits for the shareholders. Vote with your feet, its the only language business understands.

To be honest I mostly lost interest after about 2000 and all i want to do now is buy up all the minis from the 80s/early 90s, wallow in nostalgia and if anyone happens to be passing and has a 2nd edition rule book and army list I will give em a game

If they manage to make a go of it in this whole cartoon/kidstoyz thing thats being discussed then I will loose interest and go paint a painting. But I don't see why they would - adults have more money than kids and society is aging - less kids

   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





SmackCakes wrote:Well firstly you spend a lot less a month than I do. $50 Australian would hardly buy a tank here, throw in a can of spray and a book and you can double that.


Meh, I used the price for a box of Empire flagellants, as that's what I just bought. You can make it $75 or $100 if you want, point is that for a once a month purchase that isn't a lot for a hobby.

Seriously, a movie and dinner with my girlfriend will cost about $100, and that's not going anywhere fancy. Two movie tickets are $20 to $30, two mains are $25 each, two drinks a piece comes to $30; for a total of just over $100. That is the cost of things.

Secondly it's not about how expensive it is. It's about value for money. Everything in GW is hugely overpriced for what it is. For example they charge £7 for 3 files... You can buy a set of 10 good quality jeweller's needle files for less than half that in other stores. You would have to be stupid to buy your tools there.


Then you do what everyone else does... and you don't buy your tools there. It isn't exploitation to offer an overpriced item that no-one needs to buy.

Unfortunately for things like Space Marines you don't have the option of buying them from a competitor, so you have to pay GW prices. £8 would be a reasonable price for 5 space marines, and they would probably be making a decent profit at that. £15 would be way over the top. Games Workshop charge £20.


If you don't know the cost structure at GW then you're just making up numbers. Why £8, why not £6? What's the marginal profit on £8, and how many units would you have to move to clear the individual store's fixed costs? How many more units would you have to move to clear that store's share of corporate overheads, and how many more after that to start covering the cost of capital?

There are lots of things I buy that I feel quite happy about the price (most things). I do buy GW stuff because I want it, but I'm very unhappy about the price because I know I'm being ridiculously ripped off. I feel stupid giving them that much money for so little, and my gf thinks I'm insane... I think I must be.


If you look at a box of minis as $50 worth of plastic you're getting ripped. If you look at a computer game as a $100 DVD that you need to buy a computer for as well then you're also getting ripped, but who looks at a computer game that way? That computer game is, if it's any good, 30 or more hours of fun, at which point that $100 price tag starts looking pretty reasonable.

It only makes sense to look at that $50 box of plastic minis in the same way. I'll spend twenty odd hours painting a box of ten guys, and then use those guys in games once a month for years to come. That $50 quickly becomes trivial.

Literally thousands of people have already done that. That is what I probably will do too. In fact it's what I already am doing...


Exactly! That's your choice, that you're free to make at any stage. Depending on what you're looking for, I'd even be happy to make recommendations for other games.

The point is as long as you have that choice, it makes no sense to claim GW is exploitative.

When I decided I'd like to get back into GW... I was also like "WTFingF" when I saw how much they were charging these days. I actually didn't buy anything the first time I went back in the shop because I just wasn't comfortable paying that much.


If you don't like the price then don't buy it... GW doesn't owe it to you to charge what you'd like to pay, just as you don't owe it to them to pay whatever price they charge.

But the problem is GW's strategy seems to be to get the greatest return per sale, not per customer. A customer is not just one sale.


But you have to consider the possibility that GW knows that, and other basic factors get in the way of people just buying as much as they want.

There is a popular idea in business called the 80:20 principle, which states that roughly 80% of your profits comes from 20% of your customers.


I know the model, it's a solid one for teaching commerce students the basics of customer differentiation. Do you really think a company generating £100 million a year in revenue wouldn't have a pretty solid understanding of its customer groups? Perhaps a better understanding than some people on the internet who buy some of their stuff?

Because the truth is that actual, detailed customer differentiation gets a lot more complex than the 80:20 model, because a whole lot of customers fit into different groups (steady vs splurge, burn-out vs long term customers, all kinds of things like that). Really substantial models track correlations between different groups... "what proportion of our top 20% of customers tend to be splurge purchasers, and if that number is low should we continue with the wave model of releases?"

If GW can't hold on to their current customers, and can't attract new customers. Eventually they will have zero customers. This is very simple.


You say this as though you're a management accountant working at GW. I'm guessing you aren't, so you don't know their customer models, you don't know their break-even points, you basically don't know anything that goes into their pricing decisions.

GW have been in the game for decades, in an industry defined by a lack of profitability. They are the only company anywhere near their scale of operations, and they've achieved that position by following the same basic business model since at least the early 90s. Declaring that now all of a sudden their business model is doomed to failure is a bit silly.

It hasn't always been that way 2nd ed (and I believe 3rd) had a basic army list for every army. And I don't think borrowing a friends book is good enough. Codex books are as much reference books are they are anything else. I have to look stuff up in mine all the time, to check to wording and clarify things. You would at least need to make an illegal copy.


They had basic lists with stat values and points costs. Same as 2nd ed. These were miles short of what a codex provided, to the point where I never once met a person who wanted to play a game based entirely on the codices in the back of the book.

They could put it in the rule book like they used to, or have it as a downloadable PDF on their web site. The reason they don't has nothing to do with costs.


You've missed the point. A 60 page codex with recycled fluff would have a cost per printing only marginally higher than a 15 page codex full of rules.


twistinthunder wrote:30 years from now GW will be looked upon as a message to all companies to treat their customers with respect and stick to what they do best(at this point GW won't be a company anymore)


People have been prophesising the doom of GW for decades. Over that time they've been the only consistantly profitable miniatures game company.


Gitsplitta wrote:That's kind of how I look at the relationship between GW and it's hobbyists. As long as we both get enough of what we need out of the relationship, it keeps going. When either side feels slighted... you bail. That's the nature of the beast: the sooner you come to terms with it, the more you can enjoy it while things are good & the less it'll hurt when things go bad.


You ever spend more and more words trying to say something and finding you just can't explain something clearly... then someone else comes along and says it perfectly with hardly any words at all?

Well that just happened to me.


SmackCakes wrote:At the moment GW prices are way disproportional to demand.


What market pricing models have you applied to your data to reach that conclusion?

Or have you just decided that you don't like the prices, therefore they're too high?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Elite Tyranid Warrior






sebster wrote:
SmackCakes wrote:If GW can't hold on to their current customers, and can't attract new customers. Eventually they will have zero customers. This is very simple.

You say this as though you're a management accountant working at GW. I'm guessing you aren't, so you don't know their customer models.


I said 'IF'... I don't need to be a management accountant to know that a company with with no new customers and no old customers, has no customers. You can figure that out yourself.

Do you really think a company generating £100 million a year in revenue wouldn't have a pretty solid understanding of its customer groups? Perhaps a better understanding than some people on the internet who buy some of their stuff?


You would think so wouldn't you? But honestly nothing surprises me.

History is awash with companies that made face palmingly bad decisions. Experts get it wrong all the time (take for example... the entire global economy.) It isn't just small companies. Huge market leaders have folded overnight through mismanagement that defies all reason. Failure to keep up with changing times is often the cause, but greed is a huge factor too.

Games Workshop is not above making mistakes or becoming out of touch with their customers. It's something all businesses a susceptible to.

GW have been in the game for decades, in an industry defined by a lack of profitability. They are the only company anywhere near their scale of operations, and they've achieved that position by following the same basic business model since at least the early 90s. Declaring that now all of a sudden their business model is doomed to failure is a bit silly.


I did not at any time declare they were doomed. I'm sure when it's £60 for a 5 man dev squad. Some idiot somewhere will still be buying them (hopefully not me), and GW will somehow still be around.

But I really don't think they are that smart. All they've done is taken something that sold for 50p 25 years ago, and slowly hiked it up to £12... And amazingly got away with it too (despite all the customers they lost on the way). So far so good, I'm sure all the real sales managers at GW must think they're geniuses. But you can't just keep raising prices above inflation indefinitely and not expect it to effect sales... Everyone has their limit.

You've missed the point. A 60 page codex with recycled fluff would have a cost per printing only marginally higher than a 15 page codex full of rules.


Well that's not true, GW print White Dwarf every month, and they don't charge £17.50 for it. So I put it to you that GW can in fact prints a 15+ page document and sell it for less than 17.50.

Smarteye wrote:Down the road, not across the street.
A painless alternative would be to add ammonia to bleach in a confined space listening to sad songs and reading a C.S. Goto novel.
 
   
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






UK

SmackCakes wrote:But I really don't think they are that smart. All they've done is taken something that sold for 50p 25 years ago, and slowly hiked it up to £12... And amazingly got away with it too (despite all the customers they lost on the way). So far so good, I'm sure all the real sales managers at GW must think they're geniuses. But you can't just keep raising prices above inflation indefinitely and not expect it to effect sales... Everyone has their limit.


You told me a couple of days ago that you own your own PLC company yet you say this! How can you possibly say that they have raised prices above inflation but miss completely the global economy and how it has affected everything around us?

No-one has got away with anything, they have a price structure and sell items accordingly. The fact that they continue to trade means that they got it right. Too expensive and no-one buys the items, too cheap and they don't make money and collapse.

Everyone hates price rises. Everyone galls at putting hands in pockets to find less and less in there each year but to say that GW is ripping people off is ridiculous. 2006-2008 were the worst for GW on recent record with barely any profits made, despite your insistences that they rip people off. They have to price items in the way in which they do otherwise they'd go under.

Look at the figures, look at operating costs and profits made. here All figures quoted are pre-tax too! Then you might understand just how close to the mark GW has been to operating at a loss.

Flames of War recently had to up their prices too, despite a very firm statement to say thay they would not, but had to cave in with the changes in the economy. Every business has to follow the curve otherwise they fail.

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Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






UK

I was very upset after my last visit to GW.

They have A GIRL WORKING THERE!!!

I know, I was freaked out, I had to leave.

Stick to the shadows - Strike from the darkness - Victorus aut Mortis - Ravenguard 1st Company 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

LOL s.j.

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Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

Elmodiddly wrote:No-one has got away with anything, they have a price structure and sell items accordingly. The fact that they continue to trade means that they got it right. Too expensive and no-one buys the items, too cheap and they don't make money and collapse.

Everyone hates price rises. Everyone galls at putting hands in pockets to find less and less in there each year but to say that GW is ripping people off is ridiculous. 2006-2008 were the worst for GW on recent record with barely any profits made, despite your insistences that they rip people off. They have to price items in the way in which they do otherwise they'd go under.


I think if they operated differently they could shift a greater volume of sales for a smaller price which could net them overall more profit and a larger more robust customer base. But for a long time now GW have stuck with the approach that every sign of losses or trouble is met with a price increase. They only have one strategy and they've got their heads down and are running with it. It may be past the point of no return and they are either unwilling or unable to try a radically different approach. Evenually prices will become unsustainable what with an ever decreasing handful of customers propping up an ever more expensive hobby, but by then it may be too late to win back mass appeal. So they'll probably sell it off to hasbro or someone or go entirely into marketing their IP through films and computer games and scrap the miniatures and the shops.

GW prices have to become unsustainable at some point because they are constantly rising against inflation so they are getting more expensive in real terms. Are we going to see the day when a box of 10 plastic marines is the equivalent of £50 in today's money? I can't see it going that far, there has to be a ceiling somewhere. Continually rising prices well above the level of inflation is not a sustainable way to run a business, it's a sign that it simply doesn't make enough steady money to keep itself afloat, or that there are people milking it with no real interest in the longevity of the company.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 14:00:39


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




And yet...prices go up for models, but cost remains surprisingly static.

Consider the plethora of Plastic Kits now available, offering a cheaper way to build up your army, with a greater variety of units. Bloodcrushers are possibly a good recent example. £18 a pop in metal, now £32.50 for 3. That's a significant price drop right there. To use one of the oldest ones, Plastic Chaos Warriors. Before the original plastic ones, you were paying roughly £1.50 per warrior. Now, I can bag 12 for £18, which despite being 13 years, is exactly the same price. Chaos Knights and Cold One Knights are superb examples of money saving as well.

Battalions also save even more money. Has some stuff gone just plain up in price? Yup, no hiding it. Greatswords for example. Same price as metal which is a little bizarre, but a great kit nonetheless.
   
Made in gb
Elite Tyranid Warrior






Elmodiddly wrote:You told me a couple of days ago that you own your own PLC company yet you say this! How can you possibly say that they have raised prices above inflation but miss completely the global economy and how it has affected everything around us?


No I have a private Ltd company. And I don't feel I missed anything. GW have been steadily inflating their prices for as long as I can remember regardless of whether the economy is up or down, GW is always up!. Lego also make plastic injection moulded kits. 18 odd years ago I remember the big Lego technics model was £99 in Argos. Now a similarly big model is £139 in Argos. About the same time; 3 tac squads of plastic marines cost £10. Now they cost £60.

Now I realise that Lego is a different company with different issues. But I can't help but find it odd that Lego can sell a model for only 40% more, when apparently the cost of fuel, and injection moulding etc... over the last 18 years means you need to raise prices 600% just to break even.

2006-2008 were the worst for GW on recent record with barely any profits made, despite your insistences that they rip people off.


Why is it you find it so hard to grasp that their might be a connection between 'ripping people off' and 'poor sales'?

They have a price structure and sell items accordingly. The fact that they continue to trade means that they got it right. Too expensive and no-one buys the items, too cheap and they don't make money and collapse.


You just said 2006-2008 they made barely any profit, how is that getting it right? If they were (for example) to go bust in 2012 would you still look back to now and say "they were getting it right" or would they maybe fall into the 'too expensive and no-one buys the items' group?

I don't think GW have ever been at risk of being 'too cheap'.

EDIT:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I think if they operated differently they could shift a greater volume of sales for a smaller price which could net them overall more profit and a larger more robust customer base. But for a long time now GW have stuck with the approach that every sign of losses or trouble is met with a price increase. They only have one strategy and they've got their heads down and are running with it.


^Thank you

You are the person who said what I wanted to say, but summed it up so much better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 14:40:33


Smarteye wrote:Down the road, not across the street.
A painless alternative would be to add ammonia to bleach in a confined space listening to sad songs and reading a C.S. Goto novel.
 
   
Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






To those who have seen the GW financial reports for this year, by far most of their costs are running their retail stores. In the US, those stores just aren't working well and money is being poured into them from other aspects of the business.

My gut feeling is that GW is seeing disproportionately favourable results from increasing their prices due to the collector and community elements of the hobby. Its basic economic theory that up to a certain point you can continue increasing prices but losing volume; but in GW's case, that point is skewed because:
1) Players feel like they have an investment in their army, and take a while to give it up
2) People play in a community, and one person leaving will negatively affect the experience of others.

But everyone gets to that tipping point at some stage, and further price hikes could see GW's player base begin dwindling at an exponential rate. Maybe not in the next year, but in 10 years GW may be a very different entity.


As to GW staff members in stores... at my store they are very pushy. Last time I went in there, this was the conversation:
"Hi. I'd like to buy some Scorched Brown please"
"Sure. Have you seen the new Stompa? Its amazing. You should buy at least one."
"I play Tau"
"You know you want it. You could play games against yourself. Its a great model."
"no"
"Ok. Heres your paint. Do you want me to add in AoBR with that? its great value!"
"... i'll get my paint somewhere else"
... so yeah, last time I went into GW the stompa just came out.
   
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Yvan eht nioj






In my Austin Ambassador Y Reg

GW have stuck to the same business model for years. Latterly speaking, they have been hit by falling sales and the stock GW response is to raise prices; this has been shown time and again. Whenever they post financial results its always the same story; sales are down - profit remains at a similar level due to cost cutting and price hikes. This is not a sustainable business model and sooner or later, GW will find this out.

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So one bad experience is the norm?

Perhaps I have a different perspective, and indeed a wider experience. The current strategy is one that works pretty nicely. Trim the fat from the company (lots of stores shedding staff, thus reducing the wage bill) and make the most of the money you are receiving, whilst refocussing the Stores to be recruitment centres. Now I know the natural counter to this is 'what about the 'vets'???'

Well, to be honest, what about them. Once you are experienced in the Hobby, and know how to game, build terrain, paint etc, exactly what more can GW offer you that is cost effective, and thus worth doing? The stores (for those lucky enough to have one nearby) offer Gaming Nights, free of charge, where you can use their tables. Sure some stores are distinctly pokey with only a couple of boards available, but if you are indeed a Veteran of the Hobby, why don't you have a Gaming Club, something GW is keen to support? This is what I personally don't get. An active Hobbyist is a happy Hobbyist. Our collections only become a genuine waste of money the second we stop using them. This is not GW's fault. This is a personal decision they are hard pressed to influence in anyway.

As for cutting prices. Say they knock 20% off prices tomorrow, right across the board. Their overheads don't go down with them right? So their overhead remains static, and all they are doing is eroding their profit margin. As a worked example (please note figures and percentages are sample and essentially plucked from my arse. But the Maths is sound!)

So to begin. I have a boxed set which I sell for £10, making me a profit (after all other costs) of £4. Now, I cut my price by the aforementioned 20% (a popular amount with the advocates of price cutting). So now it costs £8. My costs however remain the same, namely £6, leaving me £2 profit. So rather than a simple, theoretically temporary 20% profit slice, I'm 50% down. This is pretty major. This means to make the same profit margin as I was, I need to sell significantly more of these sets, yet my profit margin will never be the same thanks to the cut. So just to make the same money as I was (and if the price cut was because my company was in trouble, I'd need to match it!) I need to sell 100% more....which frankly is not going to happen from a 20% price cut.

And to continue...GW are tackling this by reducing overheads, hurrah, so any potential price cut would mean profits are less affected. BUT, consider you come in one week and buy your army at current prices. Then, the next week, they announce a big old price cut, be it 5, 10 or 20%, you are going to feel a little peeved that you weren't informed. But this inevitable. Notify your customers too early, and they won't buy until the price cut kicks in, affecting your sales. Don't tell them, and someone is getting the poopy end of the stick. So instead of cutting prices, you cut back your spending to maximise your profit margin, meaning future price increases can be less, both in terms of percentage and frequency.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 15:20:13


 
   
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

CT GAMER wrote:I'm not so sure.

I see GW potentially entering an era of transformation in which they are testing the viability of mainstream mass market appeal:

Look at all the video game licenses in the works, movies, board games w/ FFG, etc.

I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...


Like the transformers cartoons did for hasbro.
You may be right



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
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Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.

They literally cannot win!
   
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

I think that GW's biggest folly is taking their customer base for granted. This is evidenced by their management's fervent belief that their existing customer base is capable of withstanding pretty much any price increase and that the die-hards will never stop being customers. As we all know, it is this view that directs their business strategy.

GW has not only focused their efforts solely on new customers but has (by exclusion) simultaneously shut out and alienated the old customers that got them where they are today. They've thrown the old dogs a few bones in the last few years with the release of Apoc/Planetstrike - however, any attention that they pay their estabished customers is streaky at best. It is simple common sense that it is easier to retain customers than attract new ones - GW's view that their "followers" are lifers nonwithstanding - this failure to properly maintain their existing customer base while focusing on a turnover based business model may bite them in the arse in the future.

As CT noted, GW is steaming towards ever increasing market visibility and mainstream acceptance. Unfortunately, while they do this, it is business as usual in miniature land - outside of lisencing, profits aren't healthy despite price increases and lots of belt tightening in the retail sector of the company. The key problem I see here is that despite GW management's view that price is no object to their customers - the reality is there is a tipping point for all products - and they haven't reached that breaking point yet.

To me, the real danger is whether or they'll cross that "straw that breaks the camel's back" regarding what their customer base can tolerate before reaching the new promised land (mainstream acceptance).
   
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




...urrrr... I dunno

In general, I have found the staff members at my local GW store to be really nice guys. We've had the same manager for a while, and his approach to stuff like beginners is to disregard the stupider aspects of store doctrine and do stuff that encourages players to actually improve at the game. The staff members that used to work there have all been cool, and always tended to hold the veterans who came into the store in high regard; it was (and still is) like a badge of honour to be placed in that category. Though thanks to recent cuts from Up Top, the store is now a one-man affair rather than the three-man job it used to be, I still generally feel welcome when I go in. Hell, I don't remember the last time I was "encouraged" to buy something; the manager much prefers to talk about tactics and modelling, and will only talk about products if you ask about them.
A much better approach, if you ask me, but then I guess staff members must vary.

Melissia wrote:Stopping power IS a deterrent. The bigger a hole you put in them the more deterred they are.

Waaagh! Gorskar = 2050pts
Iron Warriors VII Company = 1850pts
Fjälnir Ironfist's Great Company = 1800pts
Guflag's Mercenary Ogres = 2000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

Mr Mystery wrote:Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.They literally cannot win!

To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




...urrrr... I dunno

keezus wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.They literally cannot win!

To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.


I dunno about that, I do love some of the typos.
Here's my favourite from the Cities of Death expansion.
"Each man is a but spark in the darkness"
Immature? Yes I am.

Melissia wrote:Stopping power IS a deterrent. The bigger a hole you put in them the more deterred they are.

Waaagh! Gorskar = 2050pts
Iron Warriors VII Company = 1850pts
Fjälnir Ironfist's Great Company = 1800pts
Guflag's Mercenary Ogres = 2000pts
 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






UK

keezus wrote:GW has not only focused their efforts solely on new customers but has (by exclusion) simultaneously shut out and alienated the old customers that got them where they are today

They're damned when they don't and....

They've thrown the old dogs a few bones in the last few years with the release of Apoc/Planetstrike - however, any attention that they pay their estabished customers is streaky at best.

Damned when they do!! They simply cannot win no matter which way they fall.

To me, the real danger is whether or they'll cross that "straw that breaks the camel's back" regarding what their customer base can tolerate before reaching the new promised land (mainstream acceptance).

I think the danger is selective memory from the customers. It is the perception of value, I agree, but when we're comparing constantly the value of a pack of SM from 10 years ago to today it is us who have the problem because we are not changing with the times;

"I remember when I was a nipper we could go to the cinema, have some fish and chips (fries) on the way back and get the last bus home and still have change from a groat"

If I am not in my room, is it still my room?  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




keezus wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.They literally cannot win!

To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.


And therein lies the problem. A great many beefs with GW are purely subjective. Some dislike a rule, or rulebook, some dislike a model, or a whole range. Everyone seems to have a relatively unique view and take, thus making it impossible for GW to please everyone, and yet that does not invalidate peoples concerns/complaints.

But sadly all too often we see people presenting their opinion as cast iron fact.
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

@Elmodiddly: Damn straight I'm damning them when they do. Just because they offer up something doesn't mean that the offer is a good 'un.

In my opinion, Apoc, while a worthy idea is flawed in execution. The system is inherently biased whereupon Titan class models are generally overpowered and infantry mobs are largely ineffective as they die en-masse to the huge Apoc-blast template. Many formations are poorly designed with dubious benefits and a few of the strategems are so powerful that taking something different would be disadvantageous.

There's also the problem that Apoc/Planetstrike are one shot releases that function much like their specialist games in that they don't receive ongoing support... Planetstrike in particular got very little fanfare before riding off into the sunset. We got the great bastion kits, but you hear very little about Planetstrike games actually being played. (There's also Planetary Empires... which turned into nothing even faster than Planetstrike...)

I'll give credit when credit is due - the new kits that came out of the expansions are generally brilliant - I bought the Shadowsword, terrible game performer that it is - because it looked cool. However, it is my opinionthat while Apoc was marginally successful at raising some temporary interest - and as a long term offering to vets, it is not really much of an offering. Planetstrike and Planetary Empires are fails IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Mystery wrote:And therein lies the problem. A great many beefs with GW are purely subjective. Some dislike a rule, or rulebook, some dislike a model, or a whole range. Everyone seems to have a relatively unique view and take, thus making it impossible for GW to please everyone, and yet that does not invalidate peoples concerns/complaints.

But sadly all too often we see people presenting their opinion as cast iron fact.



The only aspect that is really quantifiable is the price increases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 16:47:33


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Apocalypse is awesome. What support does it need? "Throw your whole collection on the table and play the game" seemed to be the idea behind it.

Maybe it's the fact that it requires a bit of imagination and being a good sport that turns the more cranky players off? I liked the Planetstrike buildings, and I don't even play Planetstrike. They're just great for Terrain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 16:51:44


Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

Monster Rain wrote:Apocalypse is awesome. What support does it need? "Throw your whole collection on the table and play the game" seemed to be the idea behind it.

Maybe it's the fact that it requires a bit of imagination and being a good sport that turns the more cranky players off? I liked the Planetstrike buildings, and I don't even play Planetstrike. They're just great for Terrain.



I agree 1000%.. Apoc is the most fun Ive been having with 40k since it debuted. It requires you to modify the rules a bit, come up with new ways to play and COMMIT TO HAVING FUN over all else.. Ive seen so many apoc games be ruined due to ego, arguing and bad planning

Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






UK

@Keezus, What I am getting at is that they cannot win and when they do get something out it's picked to pieces. Thos who do like aren't going to post, in general, to say that they fully support it.
GW do care, they do try, hence the releases mentioned above. Having said that there are some who enjoyed Planetstrike, which you quote as proof that they don't think enough yet people, such as Kirasu and Monster Rain, thoroughly enjoy it.

Things take a long time to come to fruition but people are selective in their recollections and come to opinions based upon their emotions rather than what is fact.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 17:16:35


If I am not in my room, is it still my room?  
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

@Elmodiddly: I think you mean Apoc

As for selective recolletions - sure - it takes an objective mind to be able to see the forest for the trees. However, your point that the negative posters are making comments based on their emotions is proof enough that GW is doing something to piss off their customer base. Giving them a free pass by citing the universal truth that they can't please everyone isn't going to improve the situation.

@Kirasu: I agree with all your points. APOC has the potential to be awesome. I agree double-plus-good that it takes huge amounts of planning, and failure to do so results in a poor experience for the participants. Your comment that it required rules tweaks to fix it is somewhat supportive of my assertion that while it is a great concept, a bit more forethought should have been put into Apoc as a format.
   
 
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