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Hello my friends!

I found that GW has changed a lot over the years(it might only be moments for some of the vets here, I've only played this game for...not very long and I see the change of them)They used to have really nice staff members and a good system of introducing and teaching.Now they are rising the prices of everything, and with new players, they give them a brief demo game and start telling them "you should buy this".

Another issue is how they treat the vets...When 8th ed fantasy first came out, GW staff told every veteran in my LFGS to buy the book.Its like all they care is money, the old "gaming community" concept is breaking apart!Its like how Saruman abandoned the forest for his desires...

As a young gamer, I see the end of GW coming at them rapidly.They are dooming themselves, and if they dont do anything about it, they will start shrinking instead of expending.This, of course, is only my personal opinion.

What do you think?Will they change their attitude?Any thoughts from a different perspective?
Speak your mind

(I might have a lot of grammer mistakes in this thread, but I just want to make my point here)

YMMV. In my experience there are lots of great staffers as well. If you are in the Toronto region, I highly recommend GW Woodbridge.

I'm not so sure.

I see GW potentially entering an era of transformation in which they are testing the viability of mainstream mass market appeal:

Look at all the video game licenses in the works, movies, board games w/ FFG, etc.

I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...

But less and less people are playing their games from my point of view...
And they are not getting enough recruits to replace the vets.

Oh yea there are nice staff members, but a lot of them are just TFG kinda people

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

@CT: May I never live long enough to see the GW IP become so watered down and censored that it is deemed acceptable for afternoon viewing on Fox Kids.

Wings of Purity wrote:But less and less people are playing their games from my point of view...
And they are not getting enough recruits to replace the vets.

Oh yea there are nice staff members, but a lot of them are just TFG kinda people

Your missing my point. Right now they market to a specifc demographic/culture: wargamers and hobbiests.

I predict a switch to a new marketing strategy and change of focus in products that abandons reliance on solely wargamers in favor of everyday kids. Instead of miniatures for 40k and WHFB being the focus they will switch to licensing the use of their IP in more mainstream ventures: action figures and toys, lunch boxes, coloring books, t-shirts, board games, kidified versions of 40k/WHFB, etc. all associated with mainstream media ventures (movies, video games, etc.)

The marketing will switch to TV cartoons of their properties, mainstream video games, big budget hollywood movie franchise (animated or otherwise).

Us wargamers are gonna go the way of the dinosaur in favor of appealing to their new market: little johnny who wants all the toys, video games, etc., etc. from this cool new thing (40K or whatever) he sees on cartoon network or the movies or in video games, etc.

Gw is gonna undergo this metamorphosis, and I think we see signs of them testing the waters in this regard more and more with all the recent use of their IP in video games, board games by outside sources (FFG), the coming Ultras movie, etc., etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

keezus wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

@CT: May I never live long enough to see the GW IP become so watered down and censored that it is deemed acceptable for afternoon viewing on Fox Kids.

Get ready, it's coming. They are gone make millions through merchandising and licensing fees that mainstream companies are gonna pay to use their IP for movies, cartoons, toys, etc.

And if the numbers are good GW will do it and never look back...

Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

The only experiences I have had with GW employees have been positive.

I don't think that rudeness and horror are the norm in their establishments. That said, it is a business so we shouldn't be all shocked when they want our money...

Lots of people in the company. Someone having a bad experience with a couple of GW staffers doesn't mean they are all that way.

The same way my having a good time at The Warf Rat all weekend with about 50 of them doesn't mean they all party hard, and drink like fish, and are a fun bunch of guys and gals.

But I have more data points in my 'survey'.) So I think my veiwpoint is more likely.

Well what do you know, the plural of anecdote IS data.

CT GAMER wrote:

Wings of Purity wrote:But less and less people are playing their games from my point of view...
And they are not getting enough recruits to replace the vets.

Oh yea there are nice staff members, but a lot of them are just TFG kinda people

Your missing my point. Right now they market to a specifc demographic/culture: wargamers and hobbiests.

I predict a switch to a new marketing strategy and change of focus in products that abandons reliance on solely wargamers in favor of everyday kids. Instead of miniatures for 40k and WHFB being the focus they will switch to licensing the use of their IP in more mainstream ventures: action figures and toys, lunch boxes, coloring books, t-shirts, board games, kidified versions of 40k/WHFB, etc. all associated with mainstream media ventures (movies, video games, etc.)

The marketing will switch to TV cartoons of their properties, mainstream video games, big budget hollywood movie franchise (animated or otherwise).

Us wargamers are gonna go the way of the dinosaur in favor of appealing to their new market: little johnny who wants all the toys, video games, etc., etc. from this cool new thing (40K or whatever) he sees on cartoon network or the movies or in video games, etc.

Gw is gonna undergo this metamorphosis, and I think we see signs of them testing the waters in this regard more and more with all the recent use of their IP in video games, board games by outside sources (FFG), the coming Ultras movie, etc., etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

keezus wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

@CT: May I never live long enough to see the GW IP become so watered down and censored that it is deemed acceptable for afternoon viewing on Fox Kids.

Get ready, it's coming. They are gone make millions through merchandising and licensing fees that mainstream companies are gonna pay to use their IP for movies, cartoons, toys, etc.

And if the numbers are good GW will do it and never look back...

If they ever abandon the essence(wargaming part) of this thing, I will curse them with every living language and hope that they fail miserably in their attempt.

I've made it a habit of visiting a GW store on occasion during roadtrips, and all of my various experiences have been positive. If anything the employees are creepy-happy and all-too-happy to assist you.

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

CT GAMER wrote: kidified versions of 40k/WHFB

Like 8th ed. Fantasy? All the changes I've seen just seem to scream "Kids can't guess ranges, let them roll some dice and shoot at whatever they want, that'll get them buying more stuff!"

Wings of Light wrote:As a young gamer, I see the end of GW coming at them rapidly.They are dooming themselves.

I wish this were true, not just for games workshop but for all companies who exploit their customers for profit. GW has always been expensive, but now it seems like they have realised that they can just charge silly amounts and people will still pay it.

Unfortunately that's the truth. Everywhere you go you see companies overcharging, offering bad service, poor customer support, rude staff, inferior products... All kinds of things that should rightfully hurt their business, and yet it doesn't. They are still raking in huge profits, so they couldn't care less. And since customers aren't organised enough to band together and demand more, they are just forced to put up with it.

I don't know if GWs business model is the most sensible one really. They actually have massive exposure, I've met a staggering number of people who have collected games workshop at one time or another but stopped, and they all say the same thing... "It's too expensive".

One thing that super markets proved is that when things are cheaper, people don't spend less, they buy more. And people will often spend more too when they feel they are getting a better deal.

I know I for one would probably buy all the codex books if they were half the price they are now. But there is no way I'm buying them all at £17 each. I've got one, which is the one for my army... the others I'm just going to beg, steal or borrow.

So their pushing the newest version of one of their core games is that a surprise? Its their new product you can't expect them to not try and sell it, they need to jusify why there have a store there for you to hang around it and if thats how they get the money is the door to keep them employeed so be it. Don't get upset at the GW employees doing exactly what they are paid to do.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I don't view GW as that expensive in terms of hobbies. GW for the most part make fantastic models and they and their background fluff etc are arguably some of the best out there, what they do they do very well.

This is my major hobby, I view it as such, all hobbies when you get serious cost money no matter what it is. A new army I price up at around 2000pts (40k) went I play making lists generally costs me $700-900 AUD, a lot? That army is going to keep my busy for the better part of 2 year painting probably, I’m going to play a hundred games in that time if I get only one per week, not a hard goal.

Include all the extras that go with it double it? I’m looking at $1000 AUD per year for my major hobby, thats $20 a week, doesn’t sound too bad to me.

Talanis wrote:, thats $20 a week, doesn’t sound too bad to me.

So often I look people I know deep in the eyes and quietly ask 'Well, how much do you spend on drugs a week?' (Drugs includes ciggaretts and alcohol, not coffee for once )

Wings of Light wrote:I found that GW has changed a lot over the years(it might only be moments for some of the vets here, I've only played this game for...not very long and I see the change of them)They used to have really nice staff members and a good system of introducing and teaching.Now they are rising the prices of everything, and with new players, they give them a brief demo game and start telling them "you should buy this".

This hasn't been my experience. Plenty of times I've been trying to grab something and get out quickly, and I've been standing by the counter for a few minutes while the staff talk with kids. I think you might be taking your experiences in one or two stores and extending them out to GW as a whole, and that's a mistake. When you then extend that out to being evidence of the end of GW, well then you're really drawing a long bow.

SmackCakes wrote:I wish this were true, not just for games workshop but for all companies who exploit their customers for profit. GW has always been expensive, but now it seems like they have realised that they can just charge silly amounts and people will still pay it.

You can't exploit a customer by charging him a price he's willing to pay for a consumer good. Water? Yes. Toy models? No.

Unfortunately that's the truth. Everywhere you go you see companies overcharging, offering bad service, poor customer support, rude staff, inferior products... All kinds of things that should rightfully hurt their business, and yet it doesn't. They are still raking in huge profits, so they couldn't care less. And since customers aren't organised enough to band together and demand more, they are just forced to put up with it.

No, you aren't forced to put up with it. They're your dollars and there's a whole lot of miniature games out there, and a whole load of other hobbies besides. You're living at a point in time where there has never been so many choices for how you want to spend your consumer dollars. Complaining that the mean old company is charging more than you'd like to pay makes no sense.

One thing that super markets proved is that when things are cheaper, people don't spend less, they buy more. And people will often spend more too when they feel they are getting a better deal.

Not really, no. I need a kilo of rice, and I will buy a kilo of rice, whether it is two dollars or seven dollars. That is one of the basic truths of marginal utility, there is a point where price doesn't matter because I don't want any more rice.

Some of you know me by now, I try to sit on the straight thinking fence. I do fall off occasionally.

I don’t agree with some of the comments about GW being accused of raking in huge profits and keeping things expensive to shaft us, the customer.

GW last year made £7.5 million. Which, for a global company, is very poor by anyone’s standard. During the same period they had to loan £1.6 million just to keep the models going out. Do you really think that they will be making things cheaper for such a small income?

Just as an insight British Telecom made £19.24 million a week last year, £1.12 Billion!! The BBC made £145 million and Poundland the most crappiest of shops which are budget beyond belief, made £19.8 million.

Hornby, another major model manufacturer, who own, Humbrol, Corgi and Airfix made £6.1 million.

Unless they get more mainstream they cannot afford to make things cheaper, it simply cannot be taken as a risk, 2008 GW only made £1.8 million so during that year all thoughts were probably “Phew, by God that was a close shave!”.

If they become mainstream (cartoon etc) I don't think they would not make things simpler. They might make a simplified version but to guess that they would revamp the whole gaming system to accommodate the new fans is pure guesswork.

It is what it is and does what it does. If you want to join in – start reading and learning.

I think to guesstimate about cartoons, films and simplified versions which will rot our core hobby and saying that GW is all about greed is missing the point; making models is an expensive business and unless you want to see the game fold there has to be an increase in price.

I've never felt comfortable at any of my local GW, it doesn't help that I'm shy either. But from what I've observed they have never been offensive to any childern outside my family.
My little bother however was bullied by staff over my painting and other topics.

Sad I would have loved for him to get into the hobby, but =(

Monster Rain wrote:The only experiences I have had with GW employees have been positive.

I don't think that rudeness and horror are the norm in their establishments.

While being vociferous about the corporate money grabbing aspect of GW's bean counters, the guys I've encoutered on the shop floor have always been courteous and helpful and have never been asked to buy anything. Never experienced the heavy handed hard sell.

If they are being leaned on by the top brass to be pushy then the ones I have met are resisting that and long may they do so.

OP is being very touchy IMO.

Obviously you need the 8th edition rules to play the 8th edition game. People are still allowed to play the 7th edition game if they choose to, but they will be restricted to 7th edition source material. If anything was pointless, it was 7th edition - 8th has actually significantly changed the metagame.

I'm far from the last person to complain about prices rises, but it won't be the end of the hobby. I've frequented my new local GW (I've just moved near to one) and haven't found the staff to be pushy at all. They're all avid gamers who would like to see more people playing their favourite games, but it's not like they give anything but helpful information.
The GW staff are not there to cater to veteran gamers, they're there to introduce people to the hobby and run promotional events. They are retailers. They'll recommend you buy two tactical squads because you need two troop choices to play a game.

To be honest I can't see GW going mainstream. As for licensing their IP has you no theard of the number of times GW have issued legal orders stopping people from using something even close to their IP.

Going down the cartoon route would not make GW more money and they know this. Once the market is saturated with images of 40K or Fantasy who's going to continue to buy it. Not to mention the fact that kids have a very short attention span. A cartoon/toy series is hot for maybe 1 or 2 years and then they die off as the target market moves on to the next big thing.

I agree that GW has changed over the years, but all companies go through these changes. GW now has to compete with a lot more online stores who can afford to sell thei rproducts at a reduced price as they don't have the same overheads.

You also have to look at the sheer size of the company as it now. When I first started playing in the UK they were celebrating opening their 100th store now they have over 500. Such rapid expansion has to be paid for and unfortunately it us gamers now have to pay the price.

Staff have had to change in line with GW marketing policy, which has gone from supporting the older gamer and providing a more complete hobby experience, to lets sell a bucket load of stuff to the new guy and then forget him as he won't need anything for a while.

In the UK a lot of the smaller stores have also shifted to one man stores, this has lead to a cut in opening hours and also a drop in service. I can only hope this changes as more people join the company. Their reasoning behind this shift is to try and train everybody in their stores to be able to run a store independantly so that promotions within the company don't lead to a power vacuum. Nothing worse than walking into a store where nobody knows what's going on.

At least all you guys over the pond have the advantage of having a network of well run and successful independent retailers, over hear the expansion of GW has lead to the death of most of these smaller stores. I recently had a good chat with the owner of an independent store and he told me he felt there was no point stocking GW products while there is a GW store close by as they cannot make money on there stock.

Basically GW are not going to switch to being a mainstream mass media company as there is no long term profit in it. They have been going for the last 30 years and made a success of their niche market why go through the upheaval of changing to make some quick cash with no long term returns.

As for the staff you complain about, look how many guys work in your local store and how long they have to work and you may get a clue why they are doing things wrong in your opinion. We all have our bad days. If I had to deal with spoilt brats everyday whose parents buy them whatever they want without thinking of the cost I think I would get annoyed, knowing I had to work an 8 hour shift just to pay for that latest addition to my army, I'd be seriously cheesed off as well.

Now that was a serious rant

Justicar Alaric wrote:To be honest I can't see GW going mainstream. As for licensing their IP has you no theard of the number of times GW have issued legal orders stopping people from using something even close to their IP.

They've already licensed their IP for use in computer games, and they've flirted with film and other media for a long time now.


The thing to me, is that when you break it down GW's actual settings, they're not that remarkable. Thereis admittedly a great breadth as their settings have been around for decades, but that can't be captured in a new medium anyway. What's unique about GW is that it's realised in miniatures. Take that away and stick the setting in a cartoon and you've taken away the thing that made it unique and interesting in the first place.

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...

If they seriously want to break into the mainstream market that way, then they're really going to have to start being more realistic with their prices. GW's lost a lot of business because of sticker shock.

And if they did and could increase their sale 10 fold you probably would see their prices drop as it became cheaper unit to manifacture, but I would think one has to happen before the other.

sebster wrote:You can't exploit a customer by charging him a price he's willing to pay for a consumer good. Water? Yes. Toy models? No.

GW customers are not just customers though, they are also hobbyists, a loyal fan base, and part of the gaming community. While I'm sure GW do have certain percentage of people who turn up, buy something and are never seen again. I would hazard a guess that most of their sales are made to regular hobbyists, who may have been playing their games and collecting their miniatures for many years.

And actually I do think that if you keep raising and raising your prices to see how much you can squeeze them for. Then it might be profitable, but it isn't really fair on the fans. I think it qualifies as exploiting their loyalty. And I don't believe that is admirable behaviour, if you can get your product out to your fans at a fair price that doesn't destroy demand, then you should. I can't see how the steep increase in the cost of plastics can be justified by costs. I think it is just greed.

This is further exemplified by the codex books.

40k 2nd edition was a stand alone game. Everything you needed to play the game was in the box. There were codex books, but these were supplements. As it happens I bought all the codex books for 2nd edition.

But that is all changed now, and the change has not been for the benefit of the customer. Codex books are no longer a supplement, they contain crucial army lists needed to play the game. If you bought the rules then you also have to buy at least one codex book or you wasted your money. and you have to buy more if you want to have any clue what your opponent is doing, or if their army is even legal. That is in my opinion the very definition of an underhanded sales technique. It's not good for the customer or the game... The very idea that you can spend over £50 on the 40k rules and a 'supplement' and still not have enough rules for a basic battle is laughable, but that is what GW does.

What is more annoying is that you can't just buy army lists. I don't really want a full codex book personally because I've already read most of the fluff a million times, I already know what a chaplain is, I don't need or want paint schemes. Yet you can't get the army list unless you buy the whole lot. Again I think this is exploiting the customer by forcing them to pay extra for a bunch of stuff they don't want, just to get the little bit they need.

So again I will say that I don't think games workshop is just carving out an honest living selling their product to people who want it. It's a good product, and the creative people behind it do a fine job. But GW employs a lot of shrewd techniques to bolster their profits, which don't help the consumer at all. So it is no wonder people complain and feel animosity towards them.

SmackCakes wrote:

sebster wrote:You can't exploit a customer by charging him a price he's willing to pay for a consumer good. Water? Yes. Toy models? No.

GW customers are not just customers though, they are also hobbyists, a loyal fan base, and part of the gaming community. While I'm sure GW do have certain percentage of people who turn up, buy something and are never seen again. I would hazard a guess that most of their sales are made to regular hobbyists, who may have been playing their games and collecting their miniatures for many years.

So again I will say that I don't think games workshop is just carving out an honest living selling their product to people who want it. It's a good product, and the creative people behind it do a fine job. But GW employs a lot of shrewd techniques to bolster their profits, which don't help the consumer at all. So it is no wonder people complain and feel animosity towards them.

With respect you really don't know how a business works. You are a customer, first, foremost and always. Other things affect prices which are well away from the control of GW. Prices of metal, for example, pushes up costs, as does increases in fuel costs.

Extra publications with the codex stripped out leaving the army lists? That in itself is an extra expense pushing up the prices of everything just to accomodate another space on a shelf that can be filled by other stock.

You are accusing GW of not being honest, with devious techniques, yet you don't know how it all goes together.

Honestly, I don't see it that way. GW has been "dooming themselves" for at least the past 10 years according to the internet throngs.

My local store staff are great, and I've been a veteran floating in and out of the hobby for almost 20 years. yeah, they have to sell product, but if you're around long enough it mystically transforms from a business relationship to a friendship.

Elmodiddly wrote:With respect you really don't know how a business works. You are a customer, first, foremost and always. Other things affect prices which are well away from the control of GW. Prices of metal, for example, pushes up costs, as does increases in fuel costs.

Extra publications with the codex stripped out leaving the army lists? That in itself is an extra expense pushing up the prices of everything just to accomodate another space on a shelf that can be filled by other stock.

You are accusing GW of not being honest, with devious techniques, yet you don't know how it all goes together.

Actually I have my own limited company :-P

I do appreciate the GW has overheads beyond their control. But I don't think they do a good job of taking care of their customers. And in my opinion that is never going to be good for business.

There is presently another topic running specifically about codex books. Read through and see what other people are saying. I'm pretty sure I saw people complaining about the prices compared to other books, and the phrase "I don't like being ripped off".

The army list book that came with 2nd edition was tiny. It could easily be stapled in the back of the main rules and it should be. But the reason it isn't is because it's a money spinner. Games workshop use it in order to sell the more expensive codex books. But I would argue that is not good for business and certainly not good for the customers...

Having something that people 100% want that is reasonably priced is obviously going to sell better than something people only 10% want that is unreasonably priced. That is just common sense, and I think a much better business model.