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Okay, but the consumption phase almost invariably occurs once the main population of resistance is destroyed. With Orks, this is very hard to do in the length of time needed to be able to consume the spores, given that the living orks will carry on fighting, thus delaying the Nids.

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids many different types of organism, including flora and microscopic organisms. If an ork died, their spores would be consumed by the tyranids, meaning no more orks.

They have to actually catch the spores before they implanted themselves into the ground, and anywhere wind is blowing this is a very difficult thing indeed.

Spores are EXTREMELY durable, indeed, they're pretty much nature's most durable construction aside from archaea.

Melissia wrote:
Spores are EXTREMELY durable, indeed, they're pretty much nature's most durable construction aside from archaea.

So true, hell within 1-2 hours after come out of the oven a pizza has already started grown spore between the crust and cheese. Spore's that would break teeth, if they weren't microscopic.

Melissia wrote:Not really.

Take a dozen gaunts. THey won't be able to breed at all. They don't even have reproductive organs. Hell, they don't even have anything more than the utmost rudimentary digestive system.

Take a dozen Orks. A few years later that planet's completely infested and if there's no serious opposition it's ready to move on to the next one.

Now, take a hive fleet. It has to devour an entire world to reproduce, including defeating all of its defenders.

Take an Ork WAAAGH!. All it has to do is land, and it's already spreading spores and producing more Orks at a constant and exponentially increasing rate. Every single Ork that lands, or is born, constantly releases spores. Every single Ork that dies constantly produces a much larger number of spores.

The Ork reproductive system is far more efficient.

Actually, in Imperial Armour 9, it mentions Hormagaunts breeding by themselves. pretty sure there's mention in Codex Tyranids about the remnants of Hive Fleet Behemoth breeding in the Macragge polar caps as well.

Melissia wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids many different types of organism, including flora and microscopic organisms. If an ork died, their spores would be consumed by the tyranids, meaning no more orks.

They have to actually catch the spores before they implanted themselves into the ground, and anywhere wind is blowing this is a very difficult thing indeed.

Spores are EXTREMELY durable, indeed, they're pretty much nature's most durable construction aside from archaea.

If the majority of the Ork population is supressed and the planet ends up being consumed, I doubt those Ork spores are going to do much on a planet lacking an atmosphere.

Orks can survive in space.

They even fly fighta-bommas out in space.

Melissia wrote:Take a dozen gaunts... Take a dozen Orks...

The liklihood of there only being a few gaunts is very remote. However, let us assume that a Tyranid fleet was virtually wiped out, leaving only a few Tyranids on the target world. This kind of scenario is exactly what happened to the Ghorala swarm whilst attacking orks. The Tyranids were completely outnumbered but switched tactics, using hit and run raids to kill as many orks as they could before retreating, heading back to secreted digestion pools slowly increasing their numbers. When they finally defeated the orks they were able to produce new hive ships.

Now, take a hive fleet. It has to devour an entire world to reproduce, including defeating all of its defenders.

Nonsense. There are plenty of examples in Codex Tyranids of the Tyranid forces being replaced between each assault, hundreds of creatures adapted to better defeat the enemy within hours. Then you have genestealers which can reproduce, rippers that come with pre-fertilised egg sacs, the dominatrix which can spew out any kind of creature even as it's fighting and of course you have the brood nests, womb like constructions beneath the ground which churn out Tyranids by the score.

Melissia wrote:Orks can survive in space.

They even fly fighta-bommas out in space.

Fair enough. Though I think you need to grab the recent Tyranid codex before you keep going on about the Tyranids weakness being their adaptive nature being slow and they need to consume entire worlds to reproduce. The new Codex completely refutes that. Quite a few times.

And yet, there's still nothing that actually utilizes the incredibly useful Orkoid genetic code-- which has produced a race that not only survived the Enslaver plague but thrived-- aside from the friggin' biovore. I call that really fething slow.

Maybe they can adjust the chemical makeup of their creatures' carapace to make it slightly more durable to the firepower of the Tau, but when it comes to actually making something new they don't seem to be able to do much with the most common genetic code in the galaxy. Minor adjustments such as mentioned before are something even the Mechanicus can do.

I reiterate my points from earlier, anything Orks can do the Tyranids can already do.

Also, loads of species survived the Enslavers.

Melissia wrote:And yet, there's still nothing that actually utilizes the incredibly useful Orkoid genetic code-- which has produced a race that not only survived the Enslaver plague but thrived-- aside from the friggin' biovore. I call that really fething slow.

I mentioned this a page back. That biovore? Not Ork genetics. That zoanthrope? Not Eldar genetics. That Tyrant Guard? Not space marine genetics. They wrote all of that fluff out. All these creatures have been around since the initial invasion of the galaxy. They don't adapt this galaxies life forms into new creatures. They just think of what creatures they want, and use the biomass they take to make them. New fluff - buy the new codex before arguing since you apparently only know old fluff.

-Loki- wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, there's still nothing that actually utilizes the incredibly useful Orkoid genetic code-- which has produced a race that not only survived the Enslaver plague but thrived-- aside from the friggin' biovore. I call that really fething slow.

I mentioned this a page back. That biovore? Not Ork genetics. That zoanthrope? Not Eldar genetics. That Tyrant Guard? Not space marine genetics. They wrote all of that fluff out. All these creatures have been around since the initial invasion of the galaxy. They don't adapt this galaxies life forms into new creatures. They just think of what creatures they want, and use the biomass they take to make them. New fluff - buy the new codex before arguing since you apparently only know old fluff.

So your saying fluff wise Tyranid suck now. The coolest part was always eating there enemy and then using there own strenght aganist them.

Noir wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, there's still nothing that actually utilizes the incredibly useful Orkoid genetic code-- which has produced a race that not only survived the Enslaver plague but thrived-- aside from the friggin' biovore. I call that really fething slow.

I mentioned this a page back. That biovore? Not Ork genetics. That zoanthrope? Not Eldar genetics. That Tyrant Guard? Not space marine genetics. They wrote all of that fluff out. All these creatures have been around since the initial invasion of the galaxy. They don't adapt this galaxies life forms into new creatures. They just think of what creatures they want, and use the biomass they take to make them. New fluff - buy the new codex before arguing since you apparently only know old fluff.

So your saying fluff wise Tyranid suck now. The coolest part was always eating there enemy and then using there own strenght aganist them.

Well, this brings them closer to their original 2nd edition incarnation. They still eat things, and use the biomass to breed more Tyranids. They just don't repurpose DNA from this galaxy to make creatures. Honestly, I find it a better idea - why use DNA from the galaxy you are invading to come up with things to use to fight them? Use the experience from fighting them to figure out what to use to fight them.

So there a static race that can adapt, but never evolve past it's preset maxium abilities. Not really that all that great.

So basically they're like Orks, only it's biology alone rather than both biology and technology

Who needs technology when their biology provides the technology? Why build a gun when you can simply have a nest breed some? Why make ammo, when you can just have a hive breed it?

Noir wrote:So there a static race that can adapt, but never evolve past it's preset maxium abilities. Not really that all that great.

That more accurately describes the Orks, a race that has not progressed in millions of years. The Tyranids have no preset maximum ability and their entire raison d'être is incredibly swift evolution in order for the collective Tyranid species to continue and thrive.

Melissia wrote:So basically they're like Orks, only it's biology alone rather than both biology and technology

They have the qualities that Orks possess plus a multitude more, the fact that Orks use metal tools rather than organic ones is not really the issue.

Gogsnik wrote:They have the qualities that Orks possess plus a multitude more, the fact that Orks use metal tools rather than organic ones is not really the issue.

Not really.

Orks get bigger, stronger, and smarter as wars wage on. Tyranids evolve as wars rage on. Same basic thing.

Orks also develop new tools and weapons as time goes on. Tyranids... apparently don't in the newest fluff, not even biological weapons (Because they weren't developed from the DNA of this galaxy's creatures, so they haven't apparently created created anything new).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:Who needs technology when their biology provides the technology? Why build a gun when you can simply have a nest breed some? Why make ammo, when you can just have a hive breed it?

Because metal has advantages over non-metals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gogsnik wrote:That more accurately describes the Orks, a race that has not progressed in millions of years.

Yes they have, technologically they're one of the most advanced races in the galaxy.

Melissia wrote:Tyranids... apparently don't in the newest fluff, not even biological weapons (Because they weren't developed from the DNA of this galaxy's creatures, so they haven't apparently created created anything new).

I don't know why you have this fixation with the Tyranids having to evolve using their prey's DNA but they have produced many variants of creature (including weapons) since invading the galaxy. Realisitically though, what exactly would an ancient race of aliens need extra to kill and Ork, or an Eldar or a Human beyond a basic set of weapons and horde of creatures.

Because metal has advantages over non-metals.

Tyranids can produce metal, they even have hive ships with carapace made from rock.

Yes they have, technologically they're one of the most advanced races in the galaxy.

Technological advancement has nothing to do with Orks as living beings. The Ork species has barely if at all evolved over a long period of time and arguably a lot of their advanced technology has been canibalised from the technology produced by other races.

Melissia wrote:Orks also develop new tools and weapons as time goes on. Tyranids... apparently don't in the newest fluff, not even biological weapons (Because they weren't developed from the DNA of this galaxy's creatures, so they haven't apparently created created anything new).

Again, buy the codex and read the fluff. They're hardly static. They do grow new creatures when they need them. Nice bit of fluff talks about hive Fleet Naga growing bio titan bigger than a Warhound Titan, shaped like a snake, that managed to take down a whole Titan Legion. Just none of it is derived from genetics from this galaxy - it's all stuff they've created themselves.

Melissia wrote:Because metal has advantages over non-metals.

Apparently not in 40k. Those swords made of bone are far superior to even an ancient, superbly crafted power sword. And that sword made of bone was just grown right before the battle, and it on potentially every Tyranid Warrior.

-Loki- wrote:

Melissia wrote:Orks also develop new tools and weapons as time goes on. Tyranids... apparently don't in the newest fluff, not even biological weapons (Because they weren't developed from the DNA of this galaxy's creatures, so they haven't apparently created created anything new).

Again, buy the codex and read the fluff. They're hardly static. They do grow new creatures when they need them. Nice bit of fluff talks about hive Fleet Naga growing bio titan bigger than a Warhound Titan, shaped like a snake, that managed to take down a whole Titan Legion. Just none of it is derived from genetics from this galaxy - it's all stuff they've created themselves.

Yeah taking down an entire Titan legion has a few problems.
1) Most Titan legions never fight together on 1 planet and even the ones that do only do it on big occasions.
2)Taking down an entire Titan legion is nothing in the fluff, because Titans suffer from the Worf Effect.
3)That must have been a sucky Titan legion especially because a Warhound isn't all that big compared to Warlords or Reavers.

Rule of cool applies.

Also - a full on hive fleet invasion is typically considered a pretty big deal.

IF rule of cool applies, then of course Tyranids are going to lose, cause they ain't as cool

Not everyone can be a soccer hooligan in spaaaaaaaaaace.

Orks aren't soccer hooligans.

After all, Orks have intelligence.

Orcs are asexual reproducing spores and it takes everything up to and including burning and probably salting the planet if not just blowing it up from space if the infestation is to much.

Rule of Cool........ Goff Rockers, Orks win.

Hormgaunts are one of the only other tyranids able to reproduce. At least once it seems. In the tyranid codex entry it mentions they lay eggs when they make planet-fall. These mature fast and become a second wave to replace their parents dying in the main attacks. Not sure if its just a one use trick or if those offspring can also do it though.

Gogsnik wrote:

Noir wrote:So there a static race that can adapt, but never evolve past it's preset maxium abilities. Not really that all that great.

That more accurately describes the Orks, a race that has not progressed in millions of years. The Tyranids have no preset maximum ability and their entire raison d'être is incredibly swift evolution in order for the collective Tyranid species to continue and thrive.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. The orks aren't like the Imperium; they are constantly inventing new and dangerous stuff to use on their enemies. Constantly. Orks didn't have gargants until they encountered an Imperial Titan, so their response to it was to build one of their own, only bigger and with more guns. The Deffkopta, too, is a recent orkish invention, as is the Shokk Attack Gun. The orks developed teleportation devices after the Second War for Armageddon, so as to launch lightning assaults on entrenched foes, and what they don't outright invent they just steal from other races. Just ask the T'au (well, you know what I mean) whose weapons have often been looted and used against them, with some suitable "addishuns" for even more firepower.
Orks, a static race? Not on your life.

Lexx wrote:Hormgaunts are one of the only other tyranids able to reproduce. At least once it seems. In the tyranid codex entry it mentions they lay eggs when they make planet-fall. These mature fast and become a second wave to replace their parents dying in the main attacks. Not sure if its just a one use trick or if those offspring can also do it though.

What about Genestealers then.

Genestealers are probably closer to a viral infection than reproducing in the normal method.

Though oddly enough it seems like Orks who are infected still produce normal Orks when they're killed, not gene-stealer descendants.... after all, Orks put down "gene-sneaker" rebellions with remarkable ease.