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03b wrote:Those rumors seem oddly similar to these...
http://kroxitau.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-tau-codex-leak.html

Welp.

Kanluwen wrote:One thing that's always bugged me about the Tau is Pulse Carbines.

They're the perfect place to start compensating for Tau's lack of CC ability.

How do you figure?

I put it in the thread that KK linked, but just for you SRM:

Kanluwen wrote:Pulse Carbines can be the answer here for the Fire Warriors.

Allow Fire Warrior Teams to have different "loadouts", such as:
'Skirmisher' loadout--The Fire Warriors ditch their Pulse Rifles in favor of Pulse Carbines and Stun Grenades, along with taking a pair of Heavy Gun Drones with them and whatever potential transport they have.

To offset the fact that they have Stun Grenades, the unit comes equipped with Hard-wired Blacksun Filters so they don't blind themselves using their own grenades to disorient and confuse the foe, allowing the Fire Warriors to cut them down with disciplined Carbine Fire and the Heavy Gun Drones' Burst Cannons.

'Hunter' loadout(Standard loadout)--The Fire Warriors come equipped with Pulse Rifles and Photon Grenades along with Marker Drones that supplement their volleys of fire.

Then of course, there's the real kicker of a rule that should have been implemented from the get-go for both Guard and Tau.

"Fire Discipline"--The units are trained to stand their ground, pouring fire on into a charging foe.
During the first round of combat, the unit makes attacks using their standard weapons and utilizing their Ballistic Skill.
In subsequent rounds of combat, the unit can make attacks using their standard weapons but those attacks must be used with their Weapon Skill.

I will steer clear from the fluff debate, I will say this though, Firewarriors shouldn't be compared to Guardsmen.

In terms of comparisons on TT

Guardsman = Kroot - Both get big squads, weapons are offset, as are armor saves(shaper) and CC capabilities.

Vet = Firewarrior - More costly squads paired up against sturdier enemies with better weapons.

I haven't heard a whole lot about Tau, but I have heard the following rumor-- just something I picked up from the 3++ chatbox, so take it with a grain of salt:

Pulse rifle: Heavy 2, otherwise unchanged
Pulse carbine: Assault 2, otherwise unchanged

@Beefcakesoup
Er, no.
Vets= Pathfinders
They're both meant to fulfill a single role and operate away from the main force, altering their loadouts as necessary to face foes beyond their means.

Fire Warriors are as close to Guardsmen as you're going to get. They're meant to take on various enemies using a rather inflexible weapon loadout(admittedly: Guardsmen have far more flexibility, but that's because the Guard have more of a reliance upon their specific regimental assets, Tau rely on a more "combined arms" approach with each unit in the army having a specific defined role), and operate as a sort of "jack of all trades, master of none".

Kroot have no direct comparison outside of maybe the "Forward Sentries" loadout for Guard, where they would ditch armor for speed and stealth.

Fetterkey:
I can only hope that's not true. Pulse Rifles should be able to fire as either Heavy 2 or Rapid Fire.

Kanluwen wrote:I put it in the thread that KK linked, but just for you SRM:

Alright, that makes more sense. When you said "as an answer to CC" I thought you meant it would give them close combat buffs. Your idea is similar to mine, where I'd have Fire Warriors take a leadership test to see if they can fire at a unit before it charges. Once in close combat they fight like normal, but having a round of shooting that counts for combat resolution would do them a lot of good.

Edit: too tired to debate.

Good points, I agree on some Kan.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:@Beefcakesoup
Er, no.
Vets= Pathfinders
They're both meant to fulfill a single role and operate away from the main force, altering their loadouts as necessary to face foes beyond their means.

Fire Warriors are as close to Guardsmen as you're going to get. They're meant to take on various enemies using a rather inflexible weapon loadout(admittedly: Guardsmen have far more flexibility, but that's because the Guard have more of a reliance upon their specific regimental assets, Tau rely on a more "combined arms" approach with each unit in the army having a specific defined role), and operate as a sort of "jack of all trades, master of none".

Kroot have no direct comparison outside of maybe the "Forward Sentries" loadout for Guard, where they would ditch armor for speed and stealth.

Fetterkey:
I can only hope that's not true. Pulse Rifles should be able to fire as either Heavy 2 or Rapid Fire.

If you wanted a comparison you would go with Kroot man.
I'm sorry if you think it odd but it's true.
a 5+ vs a 6+ save
S3 v S4 weps
20 Kroot, 12 hounds, 3 Krootox. Infantry, Assualters, Light AT
Shaper adds to LD, Hounds give melee capabilities, Tox provide utility.
Kroot are by most standards the match-up for Guardsmen.

No, they really aren't. Kroot are a specialist unit, more akin to veterans or abhumans' roles within the Guard army. They're not the line troops of the Tau forces, they're the skirmish screens and forward scouts.

As for Vets = PFs

I could see that in some capacity.

I think most Guard players struggle with the concept of Tau because it is an alien shooter army. The natural idea is to match-up Infantry to Infantry when you have to remember we don't align perfectly with Guard. We don't use 50 FWs and give them the order to First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire and dump 150 pulse rifle shots into somethings face then assualt what's left.

Uh, no.
"The natural idea" is to match up infantry to infantry because that's what they are. I'm not necessarily looking at just the stats, I'm looking at how they're said to operate, their role within the army, etc.
Fire Warriors are the bread and butter of the Tau Cadres, just like Guardsmen are the bread and butter of the Imperial Guard.

The only difference is that Fire Warriors operate more like the Elysians, rather than the 'standard' idea of Guardsmen.

I would match up FW against Dire Avengers, Tac Squads, Vets etc. They have more in common due to their save, squad size, battlefield purpose and their weapon.

Their "battlefield purpose" is to hold the line. That makes them line infantry. They just have more gimmicks than your 'average' Guard squad does.

I do wish that Guard had been able to retain their "Heavy Armour" doctrine and purchase Carapace Armour for everyone, but that's neither here nor there.

Brother SRM wrote:Alright, that makes more sense. When you said "as an answer to CC" I thought you meant it would give them close combat buffs. Your idea is similar to mine, where I'd have Fire Warriors take a leadership test to see if they can fire at a unit before it charges. Once in close combat they fight like normal, but having a round of shooting that counts for combat resolution would do them a lot of good.

I could see the CC buff thing working too.

Maybe let them have some kind of unique grenade that they can fire within CC?
I mean, the Carbine does have an underslung grenade launcher after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Edit: too tired to debate.

Good points, I agree on some Kan.

I'm not really trying to debate, honest BeefCakeSoup.

I can see some of where you're coming from, but I'm not strictly going down the army list and picking this and this and this and saying "well this matches this because the saves are the same".

The roles for each unit in the Tau army have always been pretty set. It's supposed to echo the idea of "Everyone works towards the Greater Good", and where the Fire Warriors who use Kroot as bait for traps still refuse to put the Kroot unit's safety above their own.

What they really need to do with Tau is accentuate their move and shoot mentality and make them very mobile and shooty. They should also give suits a piece of wargear like the frag launcher, or something that allows them to hit and run, or both. Mobile shooting should be what Tau are about.

That and they really need to get away from the Tau guns being knock offs of imperial weapons. While it is nice as a reference, it just takes away from them somehow. Forge world has come up with nice suit and gun ideas, so I think the XV-9's should be in there as well. With how insane they are making the armies now, I really don't see why they can't have suits that are T5...

I can go on and on, but I just want something that is the exact opposite of my Orks, is fun to play, and has depth. Oh and can win... That might be too much to ask for, but I definitely want it.

I'm pretty much betting the Tau will be getting a larger suit, like the DreadKnight.

Infantry in 40K is in brackets.

The bracket for Guard is Kroot.


In that, 12 Kroot could fight 12 guard and they would be evenly matched up in both shooting and assualt.


12 Guard vs 12 FWs would be lopsided in FW favor at 30 inches, 24 inches and 12 inches.

I don't find them to be an even match-up if Guard requires 3-1 odds in a fight when it comes to shooting(their primary attack)

Like I said though, you have some good points, just on this specific issue I disagree. Kroot are the Tau's Guardsmen.

Kroot are the Tau's Ratlings, but with a Conscript Platoon attached


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a sidenote: I find the idea of "infantry brackets" ridiculous, because it's looking at things within a vacuum.

Anyone can make something look bad within a vacuum.
If you don't look at things within the whole, then you're doing yourself a disservice.

Are Fire Warriors, by themselves lackluster by the standard of Guard?
Yes. But that was the case, even before this ridiculous "bracket" nonsense was hitting the scene. Fire Warriors have always been far more inflexible when compared to Guard (or any race besides Necrons, really).

Is that necessarily because Fire Warriors are "not the Guard's bracket match"?
No.

Is it because the Guard Codex was updated more recently than Fire Warriors?
Bingo, we have a winner!

What does this mean overall?
That people need to stop picking and choosing specific entries to compare against other entries, without looking at the context of the unit and its role within the army.

I overhead something from the store owner where I live -Not sure if it was a rumor they were talking about or what but they might change the rail gun rules to work like this.

"Draw a 72 Inch Straight line as its measurement. All models it passes through starting from the first model takes a str 10 ap 1 hit. Than the Rail bulltet (Because this is how a real life rail gun would probably work.) takes a str 9 hit of same Ap. Than str 8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1.

So it could pass through 10 models each dealing a AP 1 shot. As the Super Mangetic Rail shot fires a shot far more powerful than any ballistic shell could hope to achive with the penetration power that Lasers and plasma just cannot achieve.

So the str of the hit starts at 10. Than works its way down...Not sure if it actually goes from 10-1 but it will go at least 6 deep.


ALSO GUARRENTEED THINGS TO HAPPEN!


All Previous Wargear that was special Order for a single model is now STANDARD ISSUE! Because lots of time has passed there will be newer and all the testing will be done. Plus story wise there has been many years of advancement too.

Shadow Suns Previous Suit is now available as the new stealth suits and she dawns a new experimental suit
Farsight will have a few tweaks and we can now use him AND shadowsun in much smaller games.

At least 2-3 New Versions of Crisis Suits.

Field Gen wrote:
ALSO GUARRENTEED THINGS TO HAPPEN!


All Previous Wargear that was special Order for a single model is now STANDARD ISSUE! Because lots of time has passed there will be newer and all the testing will be done. Plus story wise there has been many years of advancement too.

Shadow Suns Previous Suit is now available as the new stealth suits and she dawns a new experimental suit
Farsight will have a few tweaks and we can now use him AND shadowsun in much smaller games.

At least 2-3 New Versions of Crisis Suits.

that seems abit risky but i like it!

Kanluwen wrote:Kroot are the Tau's Ratlings, but with a Conscript Platoon attached


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a sidenote: I find the idea of "infantry brackets" ridiculous, because it's looking at things within a vacuum.

Anyone can make something look bad within a vacuum.
If you don't look at things within the whole, then you're doing yourself a disservice.

Are Fire Warriors, by themselves lackluster by the standard of Guard?
Yes. But that was the case, even before this ridiculous "bracket" nonsense was hitting the scene. Fire Warriors have always been far more inflexible when compared to Guard (or any race besides Necrons, really).

Is that necessarily because Fire Warriors are "not the Guard's bracket match"?
No.

Is it because the Guard Codex was updated more recently than Fire Warriors?
Bingo, we have a winner!

What does this mean overall?
That people need to stop picking and choosing specific entries to compare against other entries, without looking at the context of the unit and its role within the army.

A Firewarrior's role is to camp, markerlight, either raise BS or call in a seeker missile.

A Guardsman's job is to either hop into a Chimera and augment it's firepower, or join a platoon and die with glory.


In all honesty, their role on the battlefield is very similar to Kroot in terms of tactics, troop size, weapon / armor loadout, and price.

So with respect to your opinion Kan, FWs aren't used the same, aren't priced the same, are equipped with better weapons than Space Marines, have a superior save in more of a veteran area, and have access to Seeker Missiles via the Shas'Ui through his Markerlight.

How about GW releases a squad box of battle suits.

guyperson5,

As a Tau player, I'd be embarrassed to show up with my army if all thats true. I'm not saying it isn't but even you must agree if you simply looked at that in comparision what was before, you might have some reservations.

If not, I get to use my ForgeW SMS crisis suits! Yes, it wasn't a waste of money after all.

Cheers

Andrew

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:hmmm a "kraken heavy grav tank" I think GW has been spying on me.....



oh well, won't be the first time...( checks room for bugs...)

Come to papa.... Looks beautiful... you should sell the rights to that!

Field Gen wrote:I overhead something from the store owner where I live -Not sure if it was a rumor they were talking about or what but they might change the rail gun rules to work like this.

"Draw a 72 Inch Straight line as its measurement. All models it passes through starting from the first model takes a str 10 ap 1 hit. Than the Rail bulltet (Because this is how a real life rail gun would probably work.) takes a str 9 hit of same Ap. Than str 8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1.

So it could pass through 10 models each dealing a AP 1 shot. As the Super Mangetic Rail shot fires a shot far more powerful than any ballistic shell could hope to achive with the penetration power that Lasers and plasma just cannot achieve.

So the str of the hit starts at 10. Than works its way down...Not sure if it actually goes from 10-1 but it will go at least 6 deep.

Sorry, I don't know if I read this right, but did you say, the Railgun "bullet" takes a hit every time it hits something else?

Field Gen wrote:ALSO GUARRENTEED THINGS TO HAPPEN!


All Previous Wargear that was special Order for a single model is now STANDARD ISSUE! Because lots of time has passed there will be newer and all the testing will be done. Plus story wise there has been many years of advancement too.

Shadow Suns Previous Suit is now available as the new stealth suits and she dawns a new experimental suit
Farsight will have a few tweaks and we can now use him AND shadowsun in much smaller games.

At least 2-3 New Versions of Crisis Suits.

Ok, that all sounds awesome, but I'm taking a large sack of salt with this.

So far, IMO, these rumours are looking pretty nice.

AndrewC wrote:guyperson5,
As a Tau player, I'd be embarrassed to show up with my army if all thats true. I'm not saying it isn't but even you must agree if you simply looked at that in comparision what was before, you might have some reservations.

See above: He just copypasted an April fool's joke from a blog, presenting this fake as his own true rumour.
Noone will ever believe anything guyperson5 posts again.

I jumped in at the last point I'd read to and knee-jerk posted.



Do you know what would be an absolutely brilliant April fools joke?

If it were true....

Cheers

Andrew

I think the T4 vs. T5 thing for suits could be remedied with wargear.

Keep suits base toughness 4, but allow them to take wargear that would bump them up to Toughness 5. Similar to a mark of nurgle. But make it true Toughness 5 not T4(5). Call it extra armor or something. That way it doesn't nerf the ability of opponents to take them down, but you can make them super tough if you want.

PraetorDave wrote:I think the T4 vs. T5 thing for suits could be remedied with wargear.

Keep suits base toughness 4, but allow them to take wargear that would bump them up to Toughness 5. Similar to a mark of nurgle. But make it true Toughness 5 not T4(5). Call it extra armor or something. That way it doesn't nerf the ability of opponents to take them down, but you can make them super tough if you want.

The problem Tau players have with them is that they are vulnerable to instant death, not small arms fire. If the 3 wound rumor is true, then nobody will shoot them with anything less than a battle cannon again. Unless of course they change the instant death rules in 6th, which wouldn't be impossible I guess. I'd personally change it to strength double toughness +1, so it'd take strength 9 or 10 to gib a multiwound T4 model.

guyperson5 wrote:There is also a new tau auxillary race that is some kind of centaur thing that no one will use.

No one will take it unless they are Zoats. Then all the old school RT players will jump to Tau just so they can finally play their Zoats. But outside of them, no one will play them.

Guyperson's rumours have already been debunked as fake/ copy and pasted from an April fools.

Brother SRM wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:I think the T4 vs. T5 thing for suits could be remedied with wargear.

Keep suits base toughness 4, but allow them to take wargear that would bump them up to Toughness 5. Similar to a mark of nurgle. But make it true Toughness 5 not T4(5). Call it extra armor or something. That way it doesn't nerf the ability of opponents to take them down, but you can make them super tough if you want.

The problem Tau players have with them is that they are vulnerable to instant death, not small arms fire. If the 3 wound rumor is true, then nobody will shoot them with anything less than a battle cannon again. Unless of course they change the instant death rules in 6th, which wouldn't be impossible I guess. I'd personally change it to strength double toughness +1, so it'd take strength 9 or 10 to gib a multiwound T4 model.

Or simply put: Battlesuits need AV rather than simply acting like bikes.

Ugh, no.

missle launchers would still kill them just as easily and it would be harder to get them cover saves. They would get a slight boost to survivability against small arms fire, but thats not the problem right now. The issue is instant death weapons.

How would it be "harder to get them cover saves"?

They'd still be a damned sight smaller than any other vehicle out there.
If the issue is "instant death weapons"--then remove the ability to be affected by Instant Death.


All you really need to do is put a line in there that "Tau Battlesuits when fired upon are treated as vehicles, for all other purposes they are Jump Infantry".

So then you trade one form of instant death (double strength weaponry taking away all wounds) for another form of instant death (anything that is a 4+ on the vehicle damage table, since they will be in "squadrons" and immobilization = destroyed).

And if they are treated as vehicles then 50% of their facing will need to be obscured as opposed to any part of them being obscured. That is how it would be harder to get them cover saves.

TAU NEEDS A WALKER!

Not a crisis suit but an actual Dread knight sized walker.

Its already been done. I don't want GK's sloppy seconds.

Keep the army full of stuff that is super mobile and shoott, not good in CC but with ways to keep armies out of CC, and finally has tools that require the army to work together.