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GMMStudios wrote:

Bahaha. Funny because if you think hard enough the reference still could work...

But now I am just trying to justify too much Office..

Hah, no need to justify that--great series.

Certainly, while the idea of being able to field pure Kroot or pure Demiruge forces is fun(read Awesome) , I'd rather they get their own books for that. for various reasons, the Kroot, Vespid, Demiurge and whoever else have all decided to pledge themselves to the greater good and become part of the Tau Empire. I guess I just want them to remember that it's Codex: Tau... and Friends, not Codex: Tau/Kroot/Demiurge/Vespid/whoever.

any more than one unit from each alternate race and I feel like the Tau are getting pushed out of their own Empire. now, if they did something like they did in the 3rd edition book, where there's like an elite Demiurge, a heavy support Demiurge and a troop Demiurge, but have them all work as one unit, that'd be cool. they could even have a Demiurge HQ, but again, on the field I'd want it all to be one unit. and of course, all of the extras would hopefully not take up FOC slots.

and in regards to the crisis suits, apart from the helmet they actually match the Firewarriors very well. all of the armour platting on the basic Firewarrior (again, apart from the helmet) have slightly smoothed, yet distinctly sharp edges to them just like the XV8 suits. it's like there are boxy suits on one end of the spectrum, curvy vehicles on the other, and Firewarriors smack in the middle balancing the whole thing. just my opinions of course.

additionally, while I'd love for the whole army to have BS4 as a base stat, unless they get rid of, or change the function of, Markerlights I don't see it happening. or if it did they'd be much higher points cost

Shep wrote:
I find the believability scale on all of these rumors to be very high. Obliterator/jokearo style weapons systems on crisis suits is pretty damn elegant, crisis suit troops with a sacrifice seem just fine to me, the distribution of drones seems very cool, and another smart way to streamline unit upgrades.

I don't believe these rumours at all. It would make Crisis suits pointless to model. I also think that Demiurgs are just wishful thinking by the people who want to see Squats back.

Personally, I would quit Tau if the part about Crisis suits is true. Most fun part of playing Tau is the configurability, and generic "flying Obliterators" would totally destroy that. GW has taken HUGE criticism in the past whenever they have attempted to "streamline" the army like that, surely even they won't make that mistake yet again?

If the codex was really good it would harmonize when you used all races you could have an all kroot/demiurg/tau army but it would be as good.
@Steamdragon I know your pain

OnDebit wrote:Certainly, while the idea of being able to field pure Kroot or pure Demiruge forces is fun(read Awesome) , I'd rather they get their own books for that. for various reasons, the Kroot, Vespid, Demiurge and whoever else have all decided to pledge themselves to the greater good and become part of the Tau Empire. I guess I just want them to remember that it's Codex: Tau... and Friends, not Codex: Tau/Kroot/Demiurge/Vespid/whoever.

any more than one unit from each alternate race and I feel like the Tau are getting pushed out of their own Empire.

I agree with this line of thinking. In fact I would go so far as to say that I would not welcome the addition of many more, if any, auxiliary type troops. We understand that the Tau are a "welcoming" empire but I would hate to see them diluted to the point where it becomes a motley crew.

winnertakesall wrote:I do agree this doesn't sound like Codex: Tau, it does sound like tau, on the the level with several other allied races.

It sounds like Codex: Tau Federation, which I would like as long as it is actually a good codex on the tabletop.

Tabitha wrote:
While I won’t comment on these rumors validity, or lack there of, I will say a few things about the Tau in regards to this: If their rules stay even close to what they are now in testing, and since that’s nearly over I think they will, then they will be an incredibly versatile army. Their new allies, along with the expansion of the roles and units of current allies really give the tau a lot. The suits are also currently strong against pretty much everything except quick melee juggs like thunder wolf / noob biker squads and pretty freaking deadly almost to the point of being OP.

Though no, Fire warriors are not going BS 4.

This person seems to know what they are talking about. So I am quoting this so it doesn't get lost at the bottom of a page.

snake wrote: We understand that the Tau are a "welcoming" empire but I would hate to see them diluted to the point where it becomes a motley crew.

at least some of the tau hairstyles are already reminiscent of the band with the same name/different spelling so they'll match! ba-da-bum. tsss... thank you, thank you! i'll be here all week!

Kroothawk wrote:

streamdragon wrote:There is no part of a demiurg list, with demiurg HQ and Troops that says "Tau". There is only an associative relationship between a Kroot HQ and all Kroot troops that makes it a "Tau" army. Forgive me if I expect a "Codex: Tau" army to actually have... ya know, Tau!

Who do you expect to steer the Crisis Suits, the Broadsides, the Stealth Suits, the tanks and other skimmers then
And are you aware of the 4th edition "Codex: Tau Empire"?

Very aware, have had to play against it several times. I think it's a great example of how I'd like to see Tau with other races done, actually. I have no problem with demiurg, kroot, vespid and what have you being added to a Tau army book. As has been pointed out several times, the Tau do like to add races to their Collective Federation. But an army book about Tau should focus on Tau. They should be the "mainstay" of the army, so to speak. Bringing back Codex: Squats at the cost of Tau does a disservice to the Tau players out there.

Shep wrote:The evolution/devolution, ret-con/furtherance of background in wargaming is as inevitable as the scores of grognards gnashing and wailing against change...
The secret to gaming happiness? Make room in your life for change... 40k backstory isn't the bible, nor is it world history. I think its fun when things change, or when we get a new perspective on an old story.

Considering I've been playing since 2e, I think I'm familiar and comfortable with change. How many new books have been added since then?

But again, this isn't about "OMG KEEP THE TAU HOW THEY ARE!!", this is more about making sure that the Tau don't end up second fiddle to other things in their own book! I'm all for more races showing up in the 40k universe, I am. My thought is that GW would be silly to create a Codex called Codex: Tau, and then use it to allow entire armies of non-Tau to be fielded. At that point, why do we have Codex: Tau and not Codex: New Race? It, to me, cheapens the Tau book overall. I don't have a problem with new books being added (come on Codex: Hrud!), nor do I have a problem with older lists coming back (I'd love for my Genestealer Cults to be viable outside Apocalypse, for instance!). I just think it wouldn't be fair to Tau players for their new Army book to not focus on the Tau, with Tau as the main bulk of the army. A few pocket units here and there is one thing, an entire army is another.

And honestly? Fluff is very secondary to me in this game. Considering they've dropped the whole "Starchild and Sensei" bit from the fluff, turned up some army characteristics so far they've gone to plaid, and changed my Orks to fungus, I basically look through the fluff the same way I'd read a comic book.

Clang wrote:I don't have a problem with extra sub-races being brought in, so long as the HQ all remain Tau - the Tau fluff does a reasonable job of justifying the 'we hire mercenaries for any specialist combat roles we can't do so well ourselves' concept. Plus it really amps up the modelling possibilities. (And Demiurgs will make all the Squat fans semi-happy )

An all battle suit army? - yay!

This is basically what I'm getting at. Every army fielded from the Tau codex should at least have a small feeling of being a Tau force. I know old Squat players want desperately to believe that their army will come back, but if (and I heavily stress the IF), IF it does, it shouldn't be at the expense of another army. This is the Tau book, keep it for the Tau.

mebe keep the 1 unit of fire warriors minimum thing and have a tau commander that is MANDITORY in every army, very customisable and doesent take up a FOC position to represent the real commanders.

streamdragon wrote:My thought is that GW would be silly to create a Codex called Codex: Tau, and then use it to allow entire armies of non-Tau to be fielded.

Codex: Grey Knights says hello.

Vhalyar wrote:

streamdragon wrote:My thought is that GW would be silly to create a Codex called Codex: Tau, and then use it to allow entire armies of non-Tau to be fielded.

Codex: Grey Knights says hello.

I have, admittedly, not perused the new piece of dren that Matt Ward shat out. One book being messed up does not justify others following suit.

In debates like this i usually come down on the side of more flexibility, and this is no exception. I'm not a Tau player, but the one thing that would get me to play tau would be the option to field a large variety of alien races, or pick one race from a large selection. GW could use this as a way to greatly expand the number of alien races available to players, possibly introducing several defunct or fluff-only races that many players wopuld love to see. This in no way prevents Tau fans from playing pure (or nearly pure) Tau forces. And the Tau are expansionist after all, it is fluffy for them to accumulate more and more allies as time goes on. They are the leaders of their empire, but they wouldn't forever remain it's mainstay fighting force.

streamdragon wrote: But an army book about Tau should focus on Tau. They should be the "mainstay" of the army, so to speak. Bringing back Codex: Squats at the cost of Tau does a disservice to the Tau players out there.

Well, so you have heard that there currently is no "Codex: Tau", only a "Codex :Tau Empire".
Now what about my second argument:
Who do you expect to steer the Crisis Suits, the Broadsides, the Stealth Suits, the tanks and other skimmers then?

In alot of ways the Tau empire mimics the RL Roman empire, using aux units to plug holes in their military and to fufill functions that the Tau either are not suited, while providing the main strength ( suits, and vehicles ) for any major conflict, it just gives them more tools for the tool box ( so to speak ).
What I would like to see is these additional races truly fill niches and therefore shine in their performance, I.E. if kroot stay the main CC choice for the Tau, make them good at it , not supreme, and not useless, but GOOD, where other races need to assign their better CC units to deal with them, and the same goes for any other new race/units added, make them important members of the team.

But that being said they have to need the Tau forces to make everything come together, basically the Tau should be able to manage without the Aux races, but the Aux races should not be able to manage without the Tau, but when the two are combined then its magic time, everything functioning like a well oiled machine.

Now thats what I hope for....( crosses fingers )

Samus666 wrote:In debates like this i usually come down on the side of more flexibility, and this is no exception. I'm not a Tau player, but the one thing that would get me to play tau would be the option to field a large variety of alien races, or pick one race from a large selection. GW could use this as a way to greatly expand the number of alien races available to players, possibly introducing several defunct or fluff-only races that many players wopuld love to see.

Beyond a few units I would see this as a superficial move that wouldn't really satisfy the desire for diversification in the 40k universe. I wouldn't call offering the option of one unit in Codex: Tau Empire as a manner of greatly expanding the number of alien races available to players.

Zid wrote:Honestly, the buying HQ option = unlock this troop makes a LOT of sense, fluffwise, for Tau.

Think about it; Tau is just a conglomeration of a ton of different races allied to survive. So, if you wanna play an "allied" army, the best way would be to make basic troops, well, a troop. Meaning you can buy a Shaper and a Commander and have an allied suit/kroot army, or buy a demiurg/etheral and get an allied firewarrior/demi army. Thinking about it makes me all giddy; Tau will have soooo many different configurations! That means I won't always be facing crisis suit spam with a few firewarriors, which will be nice.

The problem with this though is that the Tau auxiliaries are ALWAYS lead by Tau commanders. Always. And it's Codex: TAU Empire, not Codex: "Mostly Tau but if you don't want to take Tau you can do that to, because we're making this a generic xenos codex so you can play all the other xenos forces that aren't big enough to get their own book."

Certainly, while the idea of being able to field pure Kroot or pure Demiruge forces is fun(read Awesome) , I'd rather they get their own books for that. for various reasons, the Kroot, Vespid, Demiurge and whoever else have all decided to pledge themselves to the greater good and become part of the Tau Empire. I guess I just want them to remember that it's Codex: Tau... and Friends, not Codex: Tau/Kroot/Demiurge/Vespid/whoever.

This. People wanting it to be both a full fledged Tau Codex and full fledged Kroot Codex, etc. simultaneously can shove it, the only thing that will give us is a cruddy book with underpowered options.

I have nothing against adding more non-Tau units to the book, in fact I welcome it. However, a single Tau unit should be mandatory, whether its because they retain the 1+ Firewarrior unit requirement (preferably not) or because all HQ choices are Tau units (this is my preference).

As for Codex Grey Knights without any actual Grey Knight units, while its possible, its not workable, unless you can live without any Heavy or Fast choices

Maybe one day we will see a
Codex: Tau Empire

and a

Codex: Xenos races ( featuring all kinds of alien goodness, with a heavy leaning towards Tau aux units.

Now that would open alot of model options, and make alot of people happy ( I would love to see a re-imagining of Zoats, exp. as a Tau Aux )

Maybe a forgeworld project

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:In alot of ways the Tau empire mimics the RL Roman empire, using aux units to plug holes in their military and to fufill functions that the Tau either are not suited, while providing the main strength ( suits, and vehicles ) for any major conflict, it just gives them more tools for the tool box ( so to speak ).
What I would like to see is these additional races truly fill niches and therefore shine in their performance, I.E. if kroot stay the main CC choice for the Tau, make them good at it , not supreme, and not useless, but GOOD, where other races need to assign their better CC units to deal with them, and the same goes for any other new race/units added, make them important members of the team.

But that being said they have to need the Tau forces to make everything come together, basically the Tau should be able to manage without the Aux races, but the Aux races should not be able to manage without the Tau, but when the two are combined then its magic time, everything functioning like a well oiled machine.

Now thats what I hope for....( crosses fingers )

This. Over and over again. This.

I don't think it will be as bad as many of you seem to be fearing - and I know people don't exactly hold much optimism for any GW release - but either way, I am of the opinion, that like Soo', it should be a Tau Codex with Auxiliaries. I'm not entirely sure this is the way it will go, but I think it's probably the way it should go.
Ultimately, it should be a Tau Codex, I don't think they should need to unlock fire warriors as troops, but they should for their allies.
Ultimately, as Kroot[hawk] has pointed out, all the heavy-lifting and vehicles etc. would be Tau, as would hopefully the basic troops and choices and the auxiliaries would be just that, secondary choices.

It likely will be Codex: Tau Empire, in that it will be focussed around Tau with some others on the side. I believe the fears that Tau would be playing 'second fiddle' are incorrect IMHO, not least due to the [lack of] faith in GW.

I REALLY, STRONGLY believe that the heart and soul of the Codex will be Tau. However, I also believe that should the player really want to, they can make armies revolving around the auxiliaries. If there's a Kroot Shaper as a HQ, then good; lots of people want a Kroot mercenary Codex and GW can sell a variety of models. I think and hope that it will go in the direction of 'you make it what you want it to be', in that you could potentially have an army of entirely Kroot (and potentially do something like claim that a Pirahna is piloted by Kroot or is a dragon-type thing or whatever), but it could suffer from it game-wise and wouldn't be the strongest or main choice. But the choice is there.

I think the GK Codex is an indicator of this. Ultimately it is Codex: Grey Knights. But, should people want to - and a lot of people do - it can be something different. This alternative use (in this case Inquisitorial army or later maybe Kroot) is trickier, weaker and less supported, however it's an option.
I really believe it will be a case of 'you make it what you want it to be', and that there will be options to the Codex, but they won't be the heart and soul, the Tau will be.


Disclaimer: I recognise that this will get lost amongst the mist of opinions and GW hatred, but I'd like to think someone at least will see sense in this and my reasoning behind it.

I wouldnt be surprised if they have various different builds available, given that the DE codex came with four possible themed builds (Baron's Hellions, Haemonculus Coven, Wych Cult and Kabalite Kabal) all of whom seems viable. However like the GK codex, the Tau Codex will focus heavily on Tau and probably marginalize any Kroot or other auxillary based army, with them being possible, but not nearly as viable as a Pure Tau Force (and certainly not as good as a combination force). As long as it's not as bad as the Mono-god forces from the chaos Codexes it should do fine.

Be honest with yourself.

If you could have the tau army you wanted....and also field what is essentially terminators with thrunderhammers and stormshields in the form of space dwarves for counter assaulting.

Would you play anything else?

chaos0xomega wrote:
As for Codex Grey Knights without any actual Grey Knight units, while its possible, its not workable, unless you can live without any Heavy or Fast choices

They already have to live without any Fast choices, regardless of whether they play Grey Knights or Inquisition. One option is not a "choice".

What's the matter with there being a bunch of xeno races in the Tau codex? I doubt you'll have to use them. If you want to run a force of just Tau I doubt that option will be removed. More variety and more options is seldom a bad thing.

streamdragon wrote:

micahaphone wrote:Well, they're not overpowered, crazy-new-rule creating books like Mr. Ward's, but both the IG and 'nid books were well thought out and had many different playstyles and fun new units in them. I've heard a lot of complaining about the tyranid codex, but it is well made, with several good units and setups. I for one welcome this fellow. Bad luck on the last name, though.

Do you actually play Tyranids? By your post I'm guessing you don't. Codex Tyranids was a blatant money grab. It made popular but limited older options completely obsolete and nigh worthless (e.g.: Carnifexes and Lictors), while forcing expensive new models down our throats (e.g.: Trygons and Hive Guard). It robbed the army of any sort of flexibility, character or feel that the previous codex had done a fantastic job of creating, while presenting dull and idiotic new options that sounded like a nine year old had named them (Tyranofex, really?). It also eliminated the viability of numerous units (anything T4 with multiple wounds basically: warriors, lictors, ravenors), especially in the current mech / missle spam environment.

The Tyranid codex is a piece of crap through and through, from pathetic nerfing of existing units (160 pt Carnifexes?) as to make new models more desirable, to a disgusting homogenization of army builds (there's basically The Tervigon list), to units that make no in sense and are a hodgepodge of pointless rules (looking at you Venomthropes and Pyrovores).

Following on after Codex Imperial Guard and Codex Space Wolves, the Tyranid codex was, and remains, an utter failure. That the book somehow made it out to printing is an insult to Tyranid players. That many years later it remains the most unsupported book shows that GW just couldn't give two s about the Tyranid army. There is nothing "well made" about this book, and "several" good units is not enough. It shouldn't be a few gems among a pile of gak, it should be a full fledged, viable army book, just like all the others. But it's not. It's not anything close.

There are so many problems with this post I don't even know where to begin. Lictors were previously popular and viable (they were tied with chaos spawn as the worst unit in the game)? The army was versatile? How the hell did it eliminate the capability of warriors which are actually used now and have better statlines and more options, or raveners which saw a massive stat boost and who were virtually useless before? What exactly about the godzilla carnifex build was highly flexible? You think horde nids or fast nids were at all viable before? Do you play this game in even the most minimally competitive environment? Did you play tyranids at all? Every nid army varient aside from godzilla was completely unviable before and carnifex spam was boring, overpowered, and stupid. While we're talking about "selling new models" if that was there aim why is the pyrovore useless? Why is the venomthrope bad? Why isn't there a model for the tyrranofex or tervigon? How is the addition of nine new non special character units somehow reducing variety in the army? It's the biggest boost in one codex that the army has ever seen.

Do you have any perspective on that army or the 40k metagame what so ever? It's posts like this that remind me just how low the level of game design experience this community actually has, and just how much it thinks it has.

Soo, the mysterious Tabitha sez that they're already done playtesting? Anybody have any idea how long it takes to go from playtesting to publishing?

No BS 4 is sad, but expected. The tidbit about the crisis suits makes me think of these possibilities (I'm counting Tabitha's post as a rumor, not a wishlist):
- Higher toughness for suits
- "hit & run" style rule that allows suits to back out of combat and give their assaulter a face full of laser.
-very high strength, as they're large mechs, but no power weapons, to stick with Tau fluff.
-A failsafe detonator-ish deterrent/self-defense-only assault mechanism?

EDIT: odd, I swear there was just a post here from a "fresh-faced new user" named Tabitha that said that they were done playtesting, fire warriors were still BS 3, and that aside from specialty combat squads, like thunderwolves, or nob bikers, suits would be able to hold their own in combat.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:If the rumour about Demiurg getting a HQ and troop choice is accurate, you can sign me up to the Greater Good, no doubts.

It'd be the final straw, I've been resisiting Tau for ages.

Definitely +1 on this. Doesn't matter to me if they have the stat line of a gretchin (although I will be disappointed and somewhat confused!), if the models are as good as they have the potential to be, this will be the first time ever I will have a pre-order down.

ShumaGorath, I think there was definitely a nugget of truth in that post you just machine-gunned of Steamdragon's. The fact was there were a large number of Carnifexes on the tabletop previously, everyone had them in their collection, and usually several. Then the new 'big kit' comes along which blows it out of the water, and the rules for the fex have a nosedive. It was quite obviously GW's plan, although as you point out they could have done it more successfully by releasing kits for the other new models in the codex!

Pacific wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:If the rumour about Demiurg getting a HQ and troop choice is accurate, you can sign me up to the Greater Good, no doubts.

It'd be the final straw, I've been resisiting Tau for ages.

Definitely +1 on this. Doesn't matter to me if they have the stat line of a gretchin (although I will be disappointed and somewhat confused!), if the models are as good as they have the potential to be, this will be the first time ever I will have a pre-order down.

ShumaGorath, I think there was definitely a nugget of truth in that post you just machine-gunned of Steamdragon's. The fact was there were a large number of Carnifexes on the tabletop previously, everyone had them in their collection, and usually several. Then the new 'big kit' comes along which blows it out of the water, and the rules for the fex have a nosedive. It was quite obviously GW's plan, although as you point out they could have done it more successfully by releasing kits for the other new models in the codex!

Maybe, but if model sales were their goal they would of made a model for the tervigon (the new superunit) and the pyrovore wouldn't be the new "Worst unit in the game". I'm much more inclined to think that the GW development team is bad at their jobs and the 40k community doesn't understand logic. Also, if that was his only point his post would have been 90% shorter and a lot less painful to read. He plainly never played tyranids before fifth. He never would have brought up lictors being made "less viable" if he did.

I mean, honestly, the trygon isn't even very good. It's just big and cool. It's expensive, easily killed, and difficult to utilize effectively. The reason the carnifex were so popular before is because 90 points got you one of the most offensively cost effective and durable shooting units in the games history. It was overpowered.

OnDebit wrote:what I would like more than anything else would be to have a choice of armour for my commander. I'd love to be able to use a commander with no suit, crisis suit, stealth suit or (in an ideal world) XV-9.

This. That, for me, would be awesome.

Kroothawk wrote:

streamdragon wrote:All the rumors really make this sound less like "Codex: Tau" and more like "Codex: Aliens with Tau dudes, really!"

Yeah, they should seriously think about renaming it "Codex: Tau Empire"

This. I seriously don't think the amalgamation of races that could appear in this codex is that "unfluffy". To me it makes a lot of sense.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:In alot of ways the Tau empire mimics the RL Roman empire, using aux units to plug holes in their military and to fufill functions that the Tau either are not suited, while providing the main strength ( suits, and vehicles ) for any major conflict, it just gives them more tools for the tool box ( so to speak ).
What I would like to see is these additional races truly fill niches and therefore shine in their performance, I.E. if kroot stay the main CC choice for the Tau, make them good at it , not supreme, and not useless, but GOOD, where other races need to assign their better CC units to deal with them, and the same goes for any other new race/units added, make them important members of the team.

But that being said they have to need the Tau forces to make everything come together, basically the Tau should be able to manage without the Aux races, but the Aux races should not be able to manage without the Tau, but when the two are combined then its magic time, everything functioning like a well oiled machine.

Now thats what I hope for....( crosses fingers )

This, IMO, would be the best way to do it. Make the Auxiliary races pretty good at one thing, but really freaking sucky at another thing, so players need to strike a balance between them to get a good army to take to tournaments, etc.

Suits all across the board should be at BS4, T5, W2, IMO.

Is there a way to delete comments on dakka dakka? Because I swear I saw a post by someone named Tabitha.

Backfire wrote:

Shep wrote:
I find the believability scale on all of these rumors to be very high. Obliterator/jokearo style weapons systems on crisis suits is pretty damn elegant, crisis suit troops with a sacrifice seem just fine to me, the distribution of drones seems very cool, and another smart way to streamline unit upgrades.

I don't believe these rumours at all. It would make Crisis suits pointless to model. I also think that Demiurgs are just wishful thinking by the people who want to see Squats back.

Personally, I would quit Tau if the part about Crisis suits is true. Most fun part of playing Tau is the configurability, and generic "flying Obliterators" would totally destroy that. GW has taken HUGE criticism in the past whenever they have attempted to "streamline" the army like that, surely even they won't make that mistake yet again?

'

This fully assumes Crisis Suits will look the same!