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Frazzled wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I understand what you're saying Frazz and agree that it some cases, it may not affect the game to a dramatic degree (or anymore than dice may for example).

However, due to the subjective nature of the 'sometimes' and 'how much' (What if the opposing player stated it affected his decision making?)----the pragmatic, objective and fair method would be zero tolerance (in my opinion). I do not consider it a burden for players to ensure they have legal lists.

I do if you are going to disqualify them for a simple error, especially if you looked at the list and ok it previously.

I wouldn't call someone placing a hive tyrant inside a mycetic spore a simple error...

After reading this through I cannot believe the fuss that people are making about your army and play Dash. It's a competative tournament for feth sake! I think the problem is that because it is classed loosely as a 'hobby', people think it has to be brought to the table in a non competative (which they seem to equate with fun) way. Rubbish. If you have played in loads of tournies, you don't spend hours painting your army, deciding on composition and making the effort to show up to willingly lose to your opponent. You fight like a mad dog thats just been shot in the nut sack. If you don't like that competative element, don't play in tournaments!

fluffywyvern wrote:After reading this through I cannot believe the fuss that people are making about your army and play Dash. It's a competative tournament for feth sake! I think the problem is that because it is classed loosely as a 'hobby', people think it has to be brought to the table in a non competative (which they seem to equate with fun) way. Rubbish. If you have played in loads of tournies, you don't spend hours painting your army, deciding on composition and making the effort to show up to willingly lose to your opponent. You fight like a mad dog thats just been shot in the nut sack. If you don't like that competative element, don't play in tournaments!

Read the entire thread carefully. People have issues with (summarized what I believe are the core points of this thread below) the fact that Dash attended a competitive event and:

1) Had an illegal list
2) Arguably had illegal and/or models that were done for advantage

You can attend a tournament and play "like a mad dog thats just been shot in the nut sack" (ever the poet?) and also adhere to the rules. The fact that some people (Dash included in my opinion) have such a laissez faire attitude towards this as if "eh, who cares, whats the big deal?" is the issue. When you espouse the rules at every turn and will argue for hours on the internet and 40 minutes in person over rules, they obviously are important to you. But when you break one and give it the 'ole "eh, whats the big deal guys?" is where I (and I think others) have an issue. I attend GT's and place in the top spots as well. If I was in Dash's shoes, I can honestly say I would have DQ'd myself. I would have been heartbroken doing it and a bit sick to my stomach, but thats life sometimes.

As a third point, you realize Dash has apparently been banned from Dakka, and if you'd like to find him, you'll need to take a jaunt on over to Hulksmash's Homeplace (where he is now an author alongside his buddy).

targetawg wrote:

fluffywyvern wrote:After reading this through I cannot believe the fuss that people are making about your army and play Dash. It's a competative tournament for feth sake! I think the problem is that because it is classed loosely as a 'hobby', people think it has to be brought to the table in a non competative (which they seem to equate with fun) way. Rubbish. If you have played in loads of tournies, you don't spend hours painting your army, deciding on composition and making the effort to show up to willingly lose to your opponent. You fight like a mad dog thats just been shot in the nut sack. If you don't like that competative element, don't play in tournaments!

Read the entire thread carefully. People have issues with (summarized what I believe are the core points of this thread below) the fact that Dash attended a competitive event and:

1) Had an illegal list
2) Arguably had illegal and/or models that were done for advantage

You can attend a tournament and play "like a mad dog thats just been shot in the nut sack" (ever the poet?) and also adhere to the rules. The fact that some people (Dash included in my opinion) have such a laissez faire attitude towards this as if "eh, who cares, whats the big deal?" is the issue. When you espouse the rules at every turn and will argue for hours on the internet and 40 minutes in person over rules, they obviously are important to you. But when you break one and give it the 'ole "eh, whats the big deal guys?" is where I (and I think others) have an issue. I attend GT's and place in the top spots as well. If I was in Dash's shoes, I can honestly say I would have DQ'd myself. I would have been heartbroken doing it and a bit sick to my stomach, but thats life sometimes.

As a third point, you realize Dash has apparently been banned from Dakka, and if you'd like to find him, you'll need to take a jaunt on over to Hulksmash's Homeplace (where he is now an author alongside his buddy).

You are absolutely right, as much as I at times get tempted to claim that I have wargear that I didnt take, because my dice actually HATE me, I don't, and I play "like a mad dog that's just been shot in the nut sack. I don't give in to the temptation of cheating because I know it is not a just victory. Rules are placed there for a reason, and if you choose to say to the rule "What's the big deal", then you aren't playing the game right.

Seems like I've read some BATREPs from Dash in the past that discusses his opponents having illegal units and wargear. If I remember right, he still tabled them(as he often does) so it wasn't a big deal to him(didn't pursue DQ). I'm not justifying, just saying.

I'm sure it won't happen again on his lists. You guys have never made a mistake on one of your lists? Ever? I know I have. Its the TO's call(IRT the models as well). I've had to come clean before during a tourney. The TO had his opinion and asked my opponent's and generally got a consensus from the tourney group. I wasn't DQ'd, I was willing to pull out but I was asked to stay. I felt like a slug, but i made an honest mistake. Albeit I wasn't in contention for a win either.

Games that are meant to be played competitively have infractions defined and penalties for those infractions defined ahead of time.

For example, Magic: the Gathering -- not an athletic sport, but played very competitively by thousands -- has a penalty guide that lays out exactly what the penalty should be for each infraction.

Magic has a penalty for almost exactly this infraction. Before games start, you must fill out a sheet that contains the contents of your deck. Judges randomly check these lists against the actual contents of players' decks - this is called a deck check. Usually the penalty is a single game loss, and you have to fix your list (this varies based on what is wrong).

Disqualifications are generally reserved for actual cheating, which usually involves the judge having to determine intent to cheat. Cheating and making an honest but unfortunate mistake are two different things.

It's too bad that there is no tournament penalty guide for 40k. Another thing Magic gets right is having a ridiculously comprehensive rules guide and almost instant FAQs upon release of a set, but I digress.

CoreFault wrote:Games that are meant to be played competitively have infractions defined and penalties for those infractions defined ahead of time.

For example, Magic: the Gathering -- not an athletic sport, but played very competitively by thousands -- has a penalty guide that lays out exactly what the penalty should be for each infraction.

Magic has a penalty for almost exactly this infraction. Before games start, you must fill out a sheet that contains the contents of your deck. Judges randomly check these lists against the actual contents of players' decks - this is called a deck check. Usually the penalty is a single game loss, and you have to fix your list (this varies based on what is wrong).

Disqualifications are generally reserved for actual cheating, which usually involves the judge having to determine intent to cheat. Cheating and making an honest but unfortunate mistake are two different things.

It's too bad that there is no tournament penalty guide for 40k. Another thing Magic gets right is having a ridiculously comprehensive rules guide and almost instant FAQs upon release of a set, but I digress.

I too semi-wish we had something more formal as MTG does, and although DQ's are reserved (typically) for actual cheating, if you say, forget to put an exiled card back into your deck for the second game of your 3 game match (an honest accident), and get deck checked, you take a game loss.

Forgot to take out your sideboard when starting your next match? (cards in a seperate pile that you can swap in after match 1 to help the matchup)
Game loss here too.

Show up with an illegal 60 card deck? DQ or game/match loss, I can't remember exactly...

And I can say that no, I have never, not once, made an error on one of my lists for a GT. I can't remember all the countless shop tournies I've been in, but as far as I can remember, I've never goofed on one of those either.

Look, GT's are these big events. You prepare for months, you spend 100's of hours painting, testing, list building. By the time the tournament rolls around that you've spent time and money (I try to keep my spending to ~500USD for the event, by driving to it, and splitting hotel rooms, Dash routinely states that he comes in more at the 2k-3k range for an event), I've checked my list. I've checked my list 10 times the night before, looking up rules for each unit. Because I'll not have a stupid error sully an entire event of good gaming (or become zee netrage), or whats more, sully the last several months of work.

Dash isn't a bad guy, I just wish he'd handle some of these a situations a bit better, both before and after.

Not like they need more work, but the INAT people are respectable enough to come up with something like what Corefault is describing.

It would at least be a start.

Monster Rain wrote:Not like they need more work, but the INAT people are respectable enough to come up with something like what Corefault is describing.

It would at least be a start.

This would be a welcome addition. I may not like what INAT comes out with all the time, but it would be nice to have a set of established rules/consequences that are semi-consistent between events. It would also help to legitimize the tournament scene (a bit).

I'm sure plenty of folks wouldn't like it, but it would head off some of the headaches for players/event organizers, as they could stand behind policy (not a beloved practice albeit). Everyone would know walking in exactly what would happen, and then when it did, they'd have no one to blame but themselves. If the penalties weren't followed, mud wouldn't get slung at the player, but at the judge that failed to enforce it.

I can tell you that the INAT guys are not really interested in standardizing tournaments. Although I do like the idea of a defined set of penalties for an event, which other events could borrow if they liked. There will never be standardization like there is when Magic's official sanctioning process, but given how INAT has become fairly popular, an INAT-style set of rules for adjudicating certain problems and rules violations at tournaments might get a fair number of events on board.

I brought up INAT since they're at least a somewhat recognized authority on the tournament scene, that's all.

Mannahnin wrote:I can tell you that the INAT guys are not really interested in standardizing tournaments. Although I do like the idea of a defined set of penalties for an event, which other events could borrow if they liked. There will never be standardization like there is when Magic's official sanctioning process, but given how INAT has become fairly popular, an INAT-style set of rules for adjudicating certain problems and rules violations at tournaments might get a fair number of events on board.

Yea, I've got no wish to standardize tourneys either, but I think a standard set of rules/penalties would be useful, while not forcing any event to change its core structure/how it wants to run things as far as gaming is concerned