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Pyriel, congratulations on getting through a fifth of the OP. I'd encourage you to read more and post less.

Pyriel, congratulations on getting through a fifth of the OP. I'd encourage you to read more and post less.

No need to be hostile, it makes you sound like I actually hit a nerve there lol.
Simply started to read something I thought to be a good batrep and stopped when I saw the list being illegal. Even skimmed the first page to see if an explanation was offered but didnt find any or missed it (ergo skimmed).

Here, you wanted something more substantial on the topic:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/05/20/40k-douche-bag-those-against-the-rule-of-law/

My thoughts exactly but tourney judges make the calls.


I also didnt know until I googled (now) and found this article that tourneys were that innacurate where people that go over the point limits with their lists are allowed to win etc.
My question is thus, can you, as a frequent tourney visitor shed some light on this phenomena, how often do these slipups happen and what is the general level of acceptance to these things by the judges?

I got a list slightly wrong pointwise once on a tourney an got a very bad reception over this but was allowed to continue if I altered the list right away.

Pyriel, thanks for rephrasing your inquiry in a more polite way. I've deleted the off-topic and rude back and forth. If folks can keep the discussion polite, we won't have to delete any more posts or give any suspensions out. That's a warning. Keep it friendly, folks.

For what it's worth Dash your record speaks for itself, you do make some deviously cheesy moves, like spinning a venom or raider for the extra movement, but at tourny's anybody who shows better be prepared for every cheesey legal trick there is, no on forks out X amount of money not to try and win the damned thing. You are quite knowledgeable, in fact at my FLGS some younger kids wanted to start DE armies and I printed out your guide and took it in for them. Gongrads on the tourny placement.

As I said earlier...

Dashofpepper wrote:And a side note:

The internet didn't freak out over Tony having 3 extra points in his army list for the Nova Open. A certain internet douche did, and a few folks jumped on it. But by and large, no one cared.

My list wasn't over in points - it was under. And the illegality was adding a useless piece of wargear (one too many) onto a character that pretty much can't use it. I added it trying to get my army UP to the point requirement. There's nothing to freak out about. Take it out of my army and I've got 1,991 points, and nothing changes. If my haemonculi had one too many pieces of wargear and it was USED in a game...that would be different.

If someone dedicates 5-10 points to buying a searchlight for a tactical marine squad that can't use it - its illegal. Also never used and a worthless expenditure of points.

No one is freaking out about it for the same reasons that *most* people don't freak out. Its irrelevant. I put myself at a disdvantage, got no benefit from it, and didn't have a full 2,000 point army - and some of that not full 2,000 points was useless. Yeah! Lets make some internet dramas!

In fairness, a fair number of folks did freak out about Tony's list being over. In many other top competive events, like the UKGT or Adepticon, I don't believe he would have been able to win with an illegal list. Generally there is a substantial penalty even if the error is minor.

Part of this is just to set a clear standard for everyone else that people are expected to be careful and conscientious making their lists, and not put all the onus on the judges.

This is why Tony doing so well (especially winning) at Adepticon was so important and meaningful. It definitely legitimized him more in the eyes of many players from around the world who are accustomed to very strict enforcement of list legality.

Mannahnin wrote:
This is why Tony doing so well (especially winning) at Adepticon was so important and meaningful. It definitely legitimized him more in the eyes of many players from around the world who are accustomed to very strict enforcement of list legality.

Then its probably a good thing that the Alamo wasn't my first run around the block.

That must have been a tough tourney to walk into the second day, given the atmosphere for you the first day, and especially knowing you would not even have the reward of beautiful tables to play on...

Way to hang in there and keep it real. I like how you gave the loot away at the end - contrary to what someone else posted, i think that's a classy play. Shows you care about the game, as a game.

It would only have been a problem if Dash had used that third item, and as he has mentioned more times than I can count in the five battle reports, that third item was the animus vitae and it was useless and he had no plans of ever using it (and what a surprise he never used it). Most of Dash's reports don't devolve into this kind of stuff so like I said before, I hope you have a little more game time and less arguing in the next tournament Dash.

Ummm, wow. Great version of the events between us: great wordsmithing. I'll leave it at that.

Take it however you want. It's not hostile, but compiling the information from your own reporting and some knowledge from actually having to game with you.

The bottom line is the culmination of all the gray areas and others (based on the other players responses) creates a very unfun enviornment when playing against you. To best sum it up; if they give you an inch, you take a mile.

I didn't attend the NOVA, but I read/heard about the 3 points over and it simply did cause a lot of drama. Personally, I don't think it made a big deal just as I don't think you also having an illegal list made a big deal in the overall effects of each game. However, the rules are in place for a reason which is to ensure everyone is on the same level playing field. Sometimes this works, sometimes not. But, when it is a clear violation of the rules, then it should be enforced. You had an illegal list. Tony had an illegal list and Mike Brandt enforced the rules to the best of his ability as it was discovered after the fact.

If you've upset gamers in NC, FL, GA (another drama filled battlereport you posted) and now TX (drama filled battlereport) and still making the claim that it is everyone else's fault and you accept absolutely zero responsibility is hard to even comprehend. Wait, I forgot UT as Stelek even posted it was not an enjoyable experience to game with you.

You can tell me to reflect or that I lie. I'm ok with all this. After 20+ years playing this game, I've only had one really bad experience and that was with you. And like you, I've also played in multiple states. Unlike you, I don't have issues with folks (aside from you) regarding how I play a game of toy soldiers.

I have watched stelek play and Stelek is the one that I would never want to game against. That being said, you have to take everything stelek says with a grain of salt, a big one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the moral of this story is you should all switch to playing warmachine/hordes

Deleted by Manchu

Again, you hit upon areas well outside of my 'sphere of influence'.

I read your reports and commented on gray ares of the rules as well as other posters comments regarding your playstyle. As many others have; not in some malicious tone in which your last post was.

I am free to post in regards to the battlereports, which I have done.

This is all very interesting Dash. It seems like at the Alamo you took advantage of the fact that the TO's would settle rulles arguments by a dice off. I will need to add this to my repertoire.

Also, its really a shame all these gamers dislike you and try to run you down. Keep your head up and shake it off.

Dash- I see you taking a lot of heat, but after reading the reports, and the responses from your opponents in your threads, you must have the patience of Jobe.

Anglacon wrote:Dash- I see you taking a lot of heat, but after reading the reports, and the responses from your opponents in your threads, you must have the patience of Jobe.

Yes to suffer the slings and arrows of posters criticizing shoddy conversions and illegal lists...he's a real martyr!

Nice report. Again could do without the drama and tone in the OP, but it is clear that Dash is ignoring me at this point, so my pleas for civility and no drama will fall on deaf ears. :(

I'm confused. Doesn't the ignore function work? Couldn't y'all just ignore the people who post things you don't like?

It seems a lot of the drama could be avoided with a simple click of a button.

I have lurked dakka for years and these batreps have encouraged me to pick up the hobby once again since i sold my stuff in 2001, thanks Dash and don't let the haters bring you down!

After reading all 5 battle reports and all the drama associated with it...I can't believe how seriously people take this game. It's really ridiculous...LOL. I'm glad my hardcore-competitive tournament-play days are over. The TMZing of this game across the internet is truly ruining the enjoyment of the "game" now. I often wonder if the only prize given was just a t-shirt...how many people would still be playing in these tournaments?

@Dash: Sorry to hear you had some troubles at the GT. My advice is to not take it so seriously. It will burn you out eventually. Take it from someone who's been there. Lastly, you will always be welcome in Orlando.

Krisken wrote:I'm confused. Doesn't the ignore function work? Couldn't y'all just ignore the people who post things you don't like?

It seems a lot of the drama could be avoided with a simple click of a button.

Well done Krisken, you have got the right idea and only been a couple of weeks on the forum.



Just to remind everyone, the public forums are not the place to pursue feuds.

Don't do it by PM too much, either, as it could be considered harrassment.

Moderators do not have access to private messaging. Investigations have to be done by an administrator. They prefer not to have to do it unless necessary.

bagtagger wrote:
the moral of this story is you should all switch to playing warmachine/hordes

You know? Ultimately, this is my takeaway from this thread.

At a regional GT, which should be a very competitive event, what do we see?

TOs weak on the rules--rules clarity has always been an issue in GW games, "dicing off" or allowing 40 minute rules dispute interruptions should never be acceptable at a 'high level of competitive play'.
Incomplete/unfinished games--completely understandable R1-4 in the 'scrub rankings', but for the final game of the final day to determine the overall winner and the game ends prematurely? With only a bare handful of models left? Give them a further extension.

Honestly, what brought about this game resolution? Slow play resulting from rules confusion resulting in a premature game end with both player admitting to a decidedly different conclusion if the game had gone on to subsequent turns.

How is this representative of a competitive event? Or a competitive system structure in general? "Competitive" 40k has, and continues to, strike me as an argument over being the tallest midget in the world.

The Drama created by all of this is really just disheartening.

Most of use where not there, you know who should care about illegal lists and possibly advantageous/disadvantageous conversions? The judges. Should the judges have acted in these areas? Yes, but they are human. Stop complaining about the size of his Venoms when he got prior permission to use them, stop complaining about the legality of his list, because ultimately, if the judges of the event want to disqualify him on that point, it is their call to make, not ours.

I have played Dash a few times, one of those times personally, early this year he attended the same local tournaments I did, and though a few of us gave him a challenge, he won every tournament here. Did any of us in this area have hard feelings or anything? Maybe a few, but nothing compared to the sour grapes of these past threads.

Here is what I saw in these battle reports, comparing Dash's explanation to his opponent's explanation. His third round opponent took an unoptimized list, and got angry when he met an army with a hard counter/ "Your lists isn't fun to play against, so I am giving you a bad sportsmanship score" just proves everything that is wrong about sportsmanship scoring and doesn't put that player in a good light. His fourth round opponent made a mistake with a rules interpretation, and his target priority, and then got mad at Dash for it. The judges ruled, it didn't go in his favor. We have all had games like that, but with fleet and the positioning of his models, he could have still easily moved around it and made it a non-issue, making the perceived advantage of longer raiders a moot point. He made the mistake, not dash, he should only blame himself for the outcome. His last round opponent, again, superior rules knowledge applied to one of the downsides to a storm raven (disembarking from a base) created sour grapes. Dash was again right, but his opponent got mad, and again, created a hostile atmosphere.

All of this, unfortunately, in all honesty, doesn't make his opponents look too good. It seemed like they and Dash both walked in with different philosophy towards the game, and they where upset because Dash's outlook on the game equaled him winning. It makes them out to be sore losers, and that is a damn shame.

Internet Drama and being upset about toy soldiers does nothing positive towards the hobby. Nothing.

You lost, you know what, I faced Dash across the table from me, and I lost. It was still a good game, that I enjoyed.

To be fair though, Dash, you are not innocent in all of this either. You have professed to being a good 40k player, you profess, that you have an incredibly high win record. Though most places you go are filled with stories that games against you are unenjoyable. Granted, I chalked a large portion of that to local opinions and attitudes towards the game that makes playing a competitive outsider fall immediately into drama and sour grapes and honestly, that is a very bad aspect of the larger 40k community. However, I think a portion of this also, is your insistence and reliance on rules interpretations that favor you, which in all honesty are fairly contentious. When you where playing in our area, you where certain that beasts benefited from pain tokens. You have an article where a key tactic to an army is the fairly contentious vehicle rotation.

My challenge to you, is if you are this great player, if you are this person who is always looking for a competitive challenge, can you enter these tournaments without those rules interpretations? Can you enter a tournament with a list that isn't 9 Venoms? Can you?

To me, that would be the impressive feat, that would cement, in my eyes and others, your true player skill. That you took a legal list, didn't use poorly worded rules for an advantage, and took a list that was a little more diverse but still highly competitive, and won a major tournament with it. You do that, and then you earned top player points. That is, if you really want to address the issues people seem to be having with you.

This is just the way I see it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Sarigar wrote:Unless I've missed a rule, the big Stormraven headache could have easily been resolved.

You stated you got a wrecked result (with some help from him going Flat Out) on the Stromraven. The picture shows the model was removed and just the base remained. Why was the model not placed where it had been wrecked, like any other vehicle? If that had been done, it would have take small amount of time to line up where your wyches would have been, but due to the size of the Stormraven, he would have easily been able to place the models down as per the rules.

The storm raven entry explicitly requires the owning player to disembark using the base of the model, not the Hull. The Valkyrie / Vendetta requires the same now per the FAQ I think.

Unless its an explodes result and then its the footprint of the vehicle.

The storm raven entry explicitly requires the owning player to disembark using the base of the model, not the Hull. The Valkyrie / Vendetta requires the same now per the FAQ I think.

I would argue that neither entry applies to "emergency disembarkation". Only standard embarking/disembarking is changed from the BRB in those entrys. So I would use the normal rules for emergency disembarking. I don't own any storm ravens or valkayries, this is just also the easiest way to avoid arguments like what happened. I like when raw also follows the KISS principle...

Budzerker wrote:

The storm raven entry explicitly requires the owning player to disembark using the base of the model, not the Hull. The Valkyrie / Vendetta requires the same now per the FAQ I think.

I would argue that neither entry applies to "emergency disembarkation". Only standard embarking/disembarking is changed from the BRB in those entrys. So I would use the normal rules for emergency disembarking. I don't own any storm ravens or valkayries, this is just also the easiest way to avoid arguments like what happened. I like when raw also follows the KISS principle...

Ok, stormraven is 5" in the air, good luck deploying 2" from the hull. And yes, it would still be in the air -- it doesn't become a wreck until after disembarks (emergency or otherwise).

There's nothing 'KISS' about these flyer models, imo.

Well, I've never met Dash. So, I don't know what it's like to play against him. But I can say, I love reading these battle reports. Dash's analysis of the game as it's happening and the explanation of moves/attacks is fantastic, and has really made me take a closer look at my own tactics. Great series of battle reports Dash. Keep 'em coming!!!

Don't sweat it Dash. I've been to plenty of big events and seen plenty of people whine and cry when they got beat. Most those guys are white knuckle "gotta win" types. No one around here has any problem with how you play. Matter of fact we reather enjoy having an internet celebrity in our midsts.

no ridiculous las/plas razorback spam with 3-6 predators backing it up

Im sorry, no offense, but a player who is running 8 venoms, a raider, and 3 ravagers who complains about razorspam is being hypocritical. You may want to stop calling the kettle black.

Great report Dash, i look forward to reading about your crons! on a seprate note, just a question (not attacking), would you consider playing a few games without the pivot move? (even if it is legal). You are a more than capable general, and if you win a game or two without it, it should shut some people up. Just a thought..