Dashofpepper's Darklight Storm at the Alamo GT: Game Five

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**Theduke07**

I think a SW player ran over his cat or something

**Thor665**

Just to the rule question about the base and wrecking the model - I will point out that, per the rules, you disembark and *then* wreck/explode the model. So, for purposes of disembarking the Storm Raven player correctly used his base as he should. Whether or not he should have dropped down the model is, ruleswise, a bit of a gaff - but I often prefer not to drop my models on rough based tables either just to avoid chipping and the like, so I can't really fault him for that.

@Dash - very much appreciate your batreps. It was nice to see how you utilized the Baron in them, I've been working with him and the beasts but appreciated getting to see them used in a more shooting oriented list which is more up my alley.

As a question, your dice woes aside, why did you opt for a shooty Kabal as opposed to your Wych cult, and how would you compare their effectiveness?

Finally, I'm amused to see the new Raider as the Raider and the old ones as Venoms. I've been having to do some pretty interesting 'counts as' for my Venoms as well, and am very much looking forward to the new models so I can spare myself "okay, all the Raiders with tail fins are Raiders, all the Raiders without tail fins are Venoms, got it?"

Appreciate the effort.

**Frazzled**

Sarigar wrote:Ummm, wow. Great version of the events between us: great wordsmithing. I'll leave it at that.

Take it however you want. It's not hostile, but compiling the information from your own reporting and some knowledge from actually having to game with you.

The bottom line is the culmination of all the gray areas and others (based on the other players responses) creates a very unfun enviornment when playing against you. To best sum it up; if they give you an inch, you take a mile.

I didn't attend the NOVA, but I read/heard about the 3 points over and it simply did cause a lot of drama. Personally, I don't think it made a big deal just as I don't think you also having an illegal list made a big deal in the overall effects of each game. However, the rules are in place for a reason which is to ensure everyone is on the same level playing field. Sometimes this works, sometimes not. But, when it is a clear violation of the rules, then it should be enforced. You had an illegal list. Tony had an illegal list and Mike Brandt enforced the rules to the best of his ability as it was discovered after the fact.

If you've upset gamers in NC, FL, GA (another drama filled battlereport you posted) and now TX (drama filled battlereport) and still making the claim that it is everyone else's fault and you accept absolutely zero responsibility is hard to even comprehend. Wait, I forgot UT as Stelek even posted it was not an enjoyable experience to game with you.

You can tell me to reflect or that I lie. I'm ok with all this. After 20+ years playing this game, I've only had one really bad experience and that was with you. And like you, I've also played in multiple states. Unlike you, I don't have issues with folks (aside from you) regarding how I play a game of toy soldiers.

How about sticking to the

ACTUAL BATREP AND TOURNAMENT AND NOT REHASHING YOUR PERSONAL BULL

? It makes you sound petty, and I'm sure you're not petty and thats just the post talking.

**Sarigar**

That was a response to DoP. I think someone wishing me to die would garner me the opportunity to a response (his post apparently got deleted so you may not have seen that).

My other posts have also been multiple replies to the actual battlereports. A lot of the issues in the games appeared to revolve around gray areas of the rules. This is by far not a perfect game system and requires a bit of cooperation among two players. Insisting on one version as the only version of a gray area of the rules has only led to ill feelings and, ultimately, DoP being unable to win despite going 5-0. 3 of his opponents did not have fun games against him and my contention is if one doesn't doggedly insist on certain interpretations of gray area rules, this may not have occurred.

That has been the crux of my comments. A little give and take goes a long way, especially in an enviornment where all parties involved knew ahead of time that Sportsmanship scoring was present. Does some of things that torqued folks off really decide who wins or loses a game (movement/vehicle proxies/illegal list/40 minute rule debate, etc...)? Most likely not, but it absolutley did affect multiple players enjoyment of an event that they put time/money/effort into.

If you have a problem with my posts, you can pm me as your own posts about me can be considered just as petty.

**Dashofpepper**

Mahu wrote:
My challenge to you, is if you are this great player, if you are this person who is always looking for a competitive challenge, can you enter these tournaments without those rules interpretations? Can you enter a tournament with a list that isn't 9 Venoms? Can you?

I'm in the middle of writing some batreps for my Assault Necrons. Which....are undefeated on the tournament scene. That's about the biggest competitive challenge I can come up with.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarigar, I didn't say I wish you would die.

I said that you you make the world a little worse of a place to live in.

Like I said - I have an extremely high tolerance for shenanigans; you're the only player who has ever cheated so badly and been such a bad sportsman that I refused to game against you. You did an excellent job in poisoning your backyard when I moved there so that I'd have a hostile crowd of people I'd never met; I don't live there anymore, and strangely enough - I get along with all my local gamers. Some of them have even posted in this thread!

Please leave. And don't return.

**Monster Rain**

Dashofpepper wrote:I'm in the middle of writing some batreps for my Assault Necrons. Which....are undefeated on the tournament scene. That's about the biggest competitive challenge I can come up with.

Try it without three monoliths.

Seriously, the internet nonsense machine creates such hysterical self-fulfilling prophecies. The internet decides that Necrons are horrible, despite having the single toughest vehicle in the game(Monolith), beastly CC units (C'Tan) and wargear that really can upset people when used correctly (Veil of Darkness.) When a competent player (yes Dash, I'm saying you're a competent player take it as a compliment) manages to buck a convention that is mainly based on theoryhammer it is then cited as proof that the player doing it is somehow a tactical gen-CRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

There are plenty of people out there doing just fine with Necrons. I'll leave it at that.

**carmachu**

bagtagger wrote:It would only have been a problem if Dash had used that third item, and as he has mentioned more times than I can count in the five battle reports, that third item was the animus vitae and it was useless and he had no plans of ever using it (and what a surprise he never used it).

I strongly disagree. Illegal list are illegals lists- one too many wargear pieces, 3 points over, one too many psyhic powers, etc....the fact that it was useless and he had no plans for it are just excusing it.

Part of tournment play is.....list building. Basic elements that one should be able to do. Dash is a great player but should know better. Its not his first rodeo.

Or Dash put it:

"Then its probably a good thing that the Alamo wasn't my first run around the block."

I've always been in favor of DQing any illegal lists.

**Dashofpepper**

Like I said before - blame it all on Hulksmash. I was on the go without a codex at hand, and he told me to add it in to fill me out to close to 2,000 points.

And actually, the typical course of action is to remove the illegal unit/object/etc from the list. Since it was never used, or even remembered to have been there, the result was the same.

Here's a good analogy: Someone brings a straw spit shooter to a rifle range that only allows rifles, and leaves leaves the spit-shooter in their bag. They take pictures and post them on their blog. You see that they brought a device to shot spitwads along with them, and raise a ruckus that they shouldn't be allowed back to the range since it wasn't a rifle.

They say, "Uh...it's a straw that shoots spitwads. I didn't know I couldn't have it, and it would be useless on the rifle range anyway. What's the biggie?

BUT THE RULES SAY ONLY RIFLES ARE ALLOWED!!!!

Mountains out of molehills for real.

**gorium**

Or just asking for a quick fix to the list if there appears to be an error in it.

DQing is pretty stupid for your event planning, and next year's participation. Quick fixes are much better for everyone.

edit (typo)

**Hulksmash**

It was my bad. I was walking to my car and didn't even come close to remembering that restriction. Dash should have double checked (or used Army Builder

) but I did tell him to add it since it seemed like a mildly useful item

**yermom**

It's certainly not your fault Hulk. Saying that is absurd. It was ultimately Dash's decision to put it in his list. It was ultimately Dash's fault for not checking (or remembering) the legality of it.

Accepting responcibility for it is like accepting responcibility for telling someone to run a red light. It's illegal, they should know its illegal, they should be the one in charge if they're drining the car (or bringing the list) and they get the ticket.

Not that I think DQ'ing Dash is the right choice of action, but blaming it on others, and failing to accept responcibility for one's actions is childlike behavior.

**Dashofpepper**

yermom wrote:It's certainly not your fault Hulk. Saying that is absurd. It was ultimately Dash's decision to put it in his list. It was ultimately Dash's fault for not checking (or remembering) the legality of it.

Accepting responcibility for it is like accepting responcibility for telling someone to run a red light. It's illegal, they should know its illegal, they should be the one in charge if they're drining the car (or bringing the list) and they get the ticket.

Not that I think DQ'ing Dash is the right choice of action, but blaming it on others, and failing to accept responcibility for one's actions is childlike behavior.

And...you didn't see the humour in my post....

**yermom**

My bad Dash! I have to admit that I'm pretty horrible at picking up internet humor/sarcasm.

Carry on with the pointless drama and the well written battle reports, nothing to see here folks

**Kirika**

Congrats on the win Dashofpepper.

As far as the list error, Mistakes are made. An advantage of list submission ahead of time is that the lists can be checked for errors.

**carmachu**

Dashofpepper wrote:Like I said before - blame it all on Hulksmash. I was on the go without a codex at hand, and he told me to add it in to fill me out to close to 2,000 points.

And actually, the typical course of action is to remove the illegal unit/object/etc from the list. Since it was never used, or even remembered to have been there, the result was the same.

Here's a good analogy: Someone brings a straw spit shooter to a rifle range that only allows rifles, and leaves leaves the spit-shooter in their bag. They take pictures and post them on their blog. You see that they brought a device to shot spitwads along with them, and raise a ruckus that they shouldn't be allowed back to the range since it wasn't a rifle.

They say, "Uh...it's a straw that shoots spitwads. I didn't know I couldn't have it, and it would be useless on the rifle range anyway. What's the biggie?

BUT THE RULES SAY ONLY RIFLES ARE ALLOWED!!!!

Mountains out of molehills for real.

Not really that last part. Legal is legal, Illegal is not. I've come up to judges in campaigns or tournments when I've made math errors and told them to DQ me whne I screw up on occassion- the last one being a couple years a couple games into a campaign I noticed my math error, pointed it out and had them award wins to prior wins in games I already played, then made the corrections and moved on.

While not a monumental issue, its not one I'd blow off either. Usually its been removal if caught before hand. Aterwards its different. For myself, I'm being consistant. I doubt you did it on purpose nor for advantage, but illegal is illegal.

Your example is a red herring.

**Monster Rain**

Dash, can you honestly say that you wouldn't care if one of your opponents had an illegal list?

**Dashofpepper**

Monster Rain wrote:Dash, can you honestly say that you wouldn't care if one of your opponents had an illegal list?

That depends. If it is over in points....that's one thing. If they spend 10 points to buy flickerfields for a Venom...which already has flickerfields...their list is illegal. It also puts them at a 10 point handicap. I wouldn't care in the slightest. If someone buys Extra Armour for a tactical marine sergeant...also illegal! Go for it. =D

I bought a close combat piece of wargear for a character that stays out of close combat on pain of certain death. Yes, it was illegal. No animals were hurt in the making of the film.

**Monster Rain**

That's reasonable.

Just thought I'd ask.

**Accersitus**

carmachu wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:Like I said before - blame it all on Hulksmash. I was on the go without a codex at hand, and he told me to add it in to fill me out to close to 2,000 points.

And actually, the typical course of action is to remove the illegal unit/object/etc from the list. Since it was never used, or even remembered to have been there, the result was the same.

Here's a good analogy: Someone brings a straw spit shooter to a rifle range that only allows rifles, and leaves leaves the spit-shooter in their bag. They take pictures and post them on their blog. You see that they brought a device to shot spitwads along with them, and raise a ruckus that they shouldn't be allowed back to the range since it wasn't a rifle.

They say, "Uh...it's a straw that shoots spitwads. I didn't know I couldn't have it, and it would be useless on the rifle range anyway. What's the biggie?

BUT THE RULES SAY ONLY RIFLES ARE ALLOWED!!!!

Mountains out of molehills for real.

Not really that last part. Legal is legal, Illegal is not. I've come up to judges in campaigns or tournments when I've made math errors and told them to DQ me whne I screw up on occassion- the last one being a couple years a couple games into a campaign I noticed my math error, pointed it out and had them award wins to prior wins in games I already played, then made the corrections and moved on.

While not a monumental issue, its not one I'd blow off either. Usually its been removal if caught before hand. Aterwards its different. For myself, I'm being consistant. I doubt you did it on purpose nor for advantage, but illegal is illegal.

Your example is a red herring.

I would say it is more like entering a sharpshooter competition where the rules are: you can use a rifle that cost up to X$, and you are not allowed to use scopes with zooming capabilities.
If your rifle costs <= X$, but it comes with a scope with zooming capabilities (that is detachable), and you leave the scope in the case for the competition because you forgot to remove it from the carrying case before leaving home, you would have done about the same as dash.

It gives you the possibility to cheat, but you haven't cheated unless you use the illegal equipment. Making sure the illegal equipment isn't used is more than enough, disqualifying someone for it would be way over the top.

**themocaw**

Accersitus wrote:I would say it is more like entering a sharpshooter competition where the rules are: you can use a rifle that cost up to X$, and you are not allowed to use scopes with zooming capabilities.
If your rifle costs <= X$, but it comes with a scope with zooming capabilities (that is detachable), and you leave the scope in the case for the competition because you forgot to remove it from the carrying case before leaving home, you would have done about the same as dash.

I would say it's more like entering a competition where you can use 2x scopes, but not any scopes that are more powerful, bring a scope with variable zoom function, forget the variable zoom exists, and leave it set to 2x zoom the whole time.

**Accersitus**

themocaw wrote:
Accersitus wrote:I would say it is more like entering a sharpshooter competition where the rules are: you can use a rifle that cost up to X$, and you are not allowed to use scopes with zooming capabilities.
If your rifle costs <= X$, but it comes with a scope with zooming capabilities (that is detachable), and you leave the scope in the case for the competition because you forgot to remove it from the carrying case before leaving home, you would have done about the same as dash.

I would say it's more like entering a competition where you can use 2x scopes, but not any scopes that are more powerful, bring a scope with variable zoom function, forget the variable zoom exists, and leave it set to 2x zoom the whole time.

I agree, fits better. Point is the same though, it gives you the possibility to cheat, you haven't cheated.

**carmachu**

Accersitus wrote:

I would say it is more like entering a sharpshooter competition where the rules are: you can use a rifle that cost up to X$, and you are not allowed to use scopes with zooming capabilities.
If your rifle costs <= X$, but it comes with a scope with zooming capabilities (that is detachable), and you leave the scope in the case for the competition because you forgot to remove it from the carrying case before leaving home, you would have done about the same as dash.

It gives you the possibility to cheat, but you haven't cheated unless you use the illegal equipment. Making sure the illegal equipment isn't used is more than enough, disqualifying someone for it would be way over the top.

Bad example. In this case the scope wasnt in the case, but actually on the rifle itself(because the model wasnt left in the case, it was actually on the table being used). Sure it didnt get used(wargear wasnt used), but you still brought and equipted something that was against the rules.

Dash is a great player, and I doubt he was trying to cheat nor find a way for an advantage that was against the rules. However, its not his first tournment either, so he does know whats suppose to be or not be.

**Grimgob**

Wasn't the young guy who just won one of the golf opens DQ'd for having one too many golf clubs in his bag even though he didnt use it (he honestly thought he took it out but was DQ'd anyways).

**ChainswordHeretic**

Sarigar wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:
Sarigar wrote:Unless I've missed a rule, the big Stormraven headache could have easily been resolved.

You stated you got a wrecked result (with some help from him going Flat Out) on the Stromraven. The picture shows the model was removed and just the base remained. Why was the model not placed where it had been wrecked, like any other vehicle? If that had been done, it would have take small amount of time to line up where your wyches would have been, but due to the size of the Stormraven, he would have easily been able to place the models down as per the rules.

The storm raven entry explicitly requires the owning player to disembark using the base of the model, not the Hull. The Valkyrie / Vendetta requires the same now per the FAQ I think.

Interesting. Skimmers are removed from their bases if possible (assuming they are not glued to the stand) and placed on the table when wrecked or immobilized per the basic rule book. From your interpretation (and possibly your opponents as well), the vehicle is wrecked, he has to measure from the base to see if he can get out. Then, once you decide which models can disembark do so and are placed. Then, you have to pretty much move every model around the base and place the Stormraven on the table. And under Emergency Disembarkation, it states the player can try to place the models anywhere within 2" of the hull of the vehicle. It can be argued that 'Emergency Disembarkation' is not the same thing as 'Disembarking' which is what is covered in the Blood Angels codex, thus the opponent would be allowed to place the Stormraven on the table, then perform an 'Emergency Disembarkation' as per page 67 of the main rulebook.

He could have easily set the model on the table and models would have been reconfigured slightly to conform its larger size and it would have been pretty easy to put the models on the table and continue gaming. He could have easily claimed that 'Disembarking' and 'Emergency Disembarkation' are two separate rules. There have been challenges with the Valkerie/Stormraven flight stands and just having a small amount of flexilibility in gray areas of the rules would go a long way.

As other people have stated that's not how you do it. If you are going to call someone out it would help if you know how to play the game.

After viewing your reports in full, there appears to be a lot of gray areas that you seemed insistent going your way and having little to no flexibility. From what I can pull from your reporting on this tourney:

That is completely your opinion, not fact.

-Garnering the approval of proxied vehicles, however, I completely conceed that the TOs made the absolute wrong call in this case. But, you gamed the game, so to speak.

Again your opinion, and you're not the TO your opinion dosen't matter.

-Taking advantage in game of said modelling for advantage which could have had a huge impact on 1st turn shooting in Night Fight where every inch can matter. With the tables as such, size for gaining cover appeared to not be an issue at all. When your guns are 36" range, getting extra inches can become critical.

Did they even play night fight? I'll have to go back and check. In any case big woop, using approved models and legal movement.

-Using blocking maneuvers to where parts of your vehicle is sticking off the table to try and ensure models can't get past (the weapons sticking from the prow appear to be off the table) . It's pretty clear these days any part of models can't hang off of the table

Page 56, measure to or from the hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners, and other decorative elements). If the hulls on the table i'm good. Again if you are going to call someone out learn how to play the game.

-Putting part of a base of a model that falls underneath a vehicle, then claiming your oppoent's base can't share space with your own vehicle, yet, your model did.

I don't speak this kind of english.

-Debating disembarking and emergency disembarkation as one in the same to your benefit

This did not end up to his benefit. And both players were confused on what to do.

-Having an illegal army list apparently (man, folks ripped into the 16 y.o. for being 3 points over, but your illegal list gets glossed over; you write these massive tacticas yet bring an illegal list stating is was a simple error; c'mon man!)

I agree. Dash this is not acceptable. I don't care if you like Army Builder or not, get it. This can not happen.

-Being called out for using equipment/models that were not on your list

Were did you see this? Now I think you are making things up.

-Rolling dice issues (that was called out on another thread, not your battle reports specifically, but I've experienced it first hand from you and this would not surprise me)

Again, now you are just making things up.

-Possibly firing units more than once. An easy fix is to simply place a marker next to units that have fired, especially MSU armies at this kind of points value. (again, this was not you reporting, but your opponent doing so within your battle report)

Now you are lying.

This has been quite a list of things that really pile up in one tournament. While going through the reports, there was nothing really new tactically offered; it really was a demonstration on how a min/max list can fare against non min/max lists. It's mainly an attitude that you will push and push to get your way on any ruling possible and pull as much shenanigans as possible unless caught. That is simply not fun to play against; and I had hoped you would have mellowed out since the time we played a couple of years back. The reason you didn't get low Sportsmanship scores was b/c it was Ard Boys and there is nothing to score. You having 'sportsmanship' issues is absolutely nothing new and claiming this event was a fluke is very, very misleading.

This is quite a list of things you made up. If you do not want to play in a competitive environment don't. It's that simple. You want to call out Dash for the way he plays, dude who made you the God of how to play 40K? He posts rules questions all the time, and does what the community says is O.K. If you play him use the same rules interpretations and get over it.

You will definitely get at least one win at the NOVA. After playing against you as well as seeing all this kind of stuff in you own reporting, I'll absolutely conceed the game if I get paired up against you. It's just not worth my time or effort to try and dodge this many landmines in a game.

Dash never met you, and have to say you rub me the wrong way. I think you come off extremely arrogant, but I also don't think it is your job to make me enjoy games. And I agree with you that losing is the best way to learn how to play this game. You do write some good reports, if you want to keep doing it people will enjoy them and let the haters hate.

**Krisken**

I'm fairly certain they mentioned they played each other once before in one of these threads (though with all the drama it's hard to keep track of who has first hand knowledge of anyone anymore).

Oh, hey there fellow Bender!

**dayve110**

As far as the list error, Mistakes are made. An advantage of list submission ahead of time is that the lists can be checked for errors.

The Alamo had advance list submissions. The judges didn't catch his error either.

**Kurb**

sourclams wrote:
bagtagger wrote:
the moral of this story is you should all switch to playing warmachine/hordes

You know? Ultimately, this is my takeaway from this thread.

At a regional GT, which should be a very competitive event, what do we see?

TOs weak on the rules--rules clarity has always been an issue in GW games, "dicing off" or allowing 40 minute rules dispute interruptions should never be acceptable at a 'high level of competitive play'.
Incomplete/unfinished games--completely understandable R1-4 in the 'scrub rankings', but for the final game of the final day to determine the overall winner and the game ends prematurely? With only a bare handful of models left? Give them a further extension.

Honestly, what brought about this game resolution? Slow play resulting from rules confusion resulting in a premature game end with both player admitting to a decidedly different conclusion if the game had gone on to subsequent turns.

How is this representative of a competitive event? Or a competitive system structure in general? "Competitive" 40k has, and continues to, strike me as an argument over being the tallest midget in the world.

Don't bring "these people" into PP games

**sourclams**

Kurb wrote:
Don't bring "these people" into PP games

To ensure that we don't derail the thread into GW vs PP 'that old thread again', what I find specifically striking is that the true contention in the thread is all surrounding rules issues and judging; illegal list, lengthy game interruptions/slow play, proxies, passive/weak judges in meaningful YMDC situations. Very little about the game play or the dice 'luck factor'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimgob wrote:Wasn't the young guy who just won one of the golf opens DQ'd for having one too many golf clubs in his bag even though he didnt use it (he honestly thought he took it out but was DQ'd anyways).

In professional competitions, breaking the rule is all the justification needed for a penalty to be called. It rarely matters what 'impact' it has on the game, that the rules were broken is justification in and of itself.

That said, there tend to be strict and documented guidelines about what constitutes a rule violation and a specific penalty associated with specific rules violations. 40k has none of these things, or rather 40k leaves everything up to TO discretion; if the TO/judge is more passive then regulation is almost certainly going to be more laissez-faire.

**Mahu**

Dashofpepper wrote:
Mahu wrote:
My challenge to you, is if you are this great player, if you are this person who is always looking for a competitive challenge, can you enter these tournaments without those rules interpretations? Can you enter a tournament with a list that isn't 9 Venoms? Can you?

I'm in the middle of writing some batreps for my Assault Necrons. Which....are undefeated on the tournament scene. That's about the biggest competitive challenge I can come up with.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarigar, I didn't say I wish you would die.

I said that you you make the world a little worse of a place to live in.

Like I said - I have an extremely high tolerance for shenanigans; you're the only player who has ever cheated so badly and been such a bad sportsman that I refused to game against you. You did an excellent job in poisoning your backyard when I moved there so that I'd have a hostile crowd of people I'd never met; I don't live there anymore, and strangely enough - I get along with all my local gamers. Some of them have even posted in this thread!

Please leave. And don't return.

I think you missed the point of the challenge.

**Dodiez**

I'm Dashofpepper's wife.

He asked me to say this:

Dashofpepper wrote:Can you post in my battle report thread on Dakka that if anyone has any tactical or game related queries, that they can find me on Skype under the user name "Dashofpepper" please? Tell them that I'm usually on after 1730 CST.