Psienesis wrote:Maybe... they say that midichlorians are actually intelligent, so they may choose not to give the Tyranid anything.

What made Anakin... Anakin... is less the presence of his midichlorians.. and more the fact that he was some precocious brat that grew up to be some meat-headed, arrogant thug. Though, no, someone with a much lower midichlorian count would never, ever be as powerful as Anakin... this is why I hate the concept of midichlorians, it removed the entire mystic aspect of the Force, removed the whole Kung-Fu Theatre aspect of being a Jedi, removed the idea that, if you worked at it long enough, hard enough, you could become a great and powerful Jedi... and turned it into a genetic condition. Some people were simply "born better", as far as the Force was concerned. This is bullgak.

Luke is way more powerful than any Jedi in history

dajobe wrote:attacking other people is not the way to win the debate, because it is that, a debate, not a "youre wrong, im right, your stupid, im smart" we have all given our opinions and so far from what i have seen your arguements are "THERES A BAGILLIION QUINTILLION DROIDS" and "THERES A SUPERWEAPON, WE JUST CANT NAME IT!". I give evolution the win, unfortunately, i am not a mod and cant finish on that note...

Kasrkai wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:You seem to assume that the Hive fleet will last long enough to evolve while being crushed under the droid numbers that exist. How many tyranids are in a hive fleet again? Because they could face the full might of quintillions of droids. Yes, you heard me right that would be at least 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids if not 9,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids.

Want to debate that number? Well, you really can't it was given in an official source book and is considered canon. That means they're facing a quitillion droids with at least a million more a day on the way. Not to mention the capital ships and clone troops backing them up.

The clone troopers had at least 20,000,000 in their ranks just from counting the clones at various battles as well as the clones needed to fill the order for 1,000 Acclamator-class transports. However even with that they would have somehow needed to be able to outfight the droid army 100 trillion to one. Based on the movies this isn't possible as the clone seemed to fight the droids on an even basis so they must have had at least a few quadrillion cloned soldiers would have been needed to fight the droids.

You might say that one world couldn't have produced all of those and I would agree. However there was more than one world producing clones and beyond the first batch they were flash cloned instead of trained meaning that multiple batches per world could have been created over the year the conflict lasted.

Now, to potential capital ship production. Given that production of the DSII to where we saw it took only 6 months and that it has a volume of 214,000,000 kilometers cubed. If we take a Victory-class Star Destroyer's dimensions as a cube, instead of it's actual shape - increasing it's volume by a few times might I add - then it take up 0.15 kilometers cubed. Thus one could build 1.43 billion Victory-class Star Destroyers in 6 months. Crewing them would take a small fraction of the total cloned forces needing only 5.36 trillion clones, that number could be lessened by around half if we assume the soldiers they carry are droids.

So tell me, in six months can the hive fleet build a billion capital scale ships able to put out >200 Gigatons per main battery shot. Can they then still counter with a few quintillion of even the most common ground soldiers? Oh, did I mention the Super Battle droids, Vulture droids, Droidekas and other things that could also hit the battle field? How about the 33.6 billion fighters along with armed shuttles and the vehicle battalions?

This isn't to mention existing fleet assest, the prototype death star, and independent factions. Or the fact that other ships were built at the same time as the DSII increasing that number further. Nor does it take into account volunteers and conscription, though they hardly seem needed.


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Oh, and are people just going to talk around me and thus concede or will some challenger with actual facts try to challenge me?

So people have no excuses here are my other posts on this topic.
Second, numbers, we see B1 droids coming off the line at a rate of at least 1 per second. Given that the second Death Star was built with supplies sent in through a single sub contracted shipping company that line won't be shutting down anytime soon. Given that we didn't see other types of droids being built there we can safely say that droids are being built continuously at a rate of 1 or more per second.

What does that mean for the nids? Well, it means that with travel times being so short that they would be dealing with at least 86,000 B1 droid and support units each day from every planet that is building droids. It seems unlikely that only one world was building battle droids and that more lines wouldn't start in the event of a large war. Thus if even 10 planets are in action that means they would be facing around a million fresh droids per day in ground battles.

For fleet battles the ICS says that the Acclamator-class Transport has a peak weapons out put of 8.368e+20 joules or 200 Gigatons. Given that it isn't a true warship Venator and Victory-class ships will likely have a higher firepower. Separatist ships have less heavy firepower and more light weapons in addition to single large guns which take time to charge. Both are qualities that work well against the relatively slow and short ranged Nid vessels.

In both range and speed the Nids lose again. Ships in Star Wars can cross the galaxy in days at worst and have been sourced as having ten light minute range against predictable targets. This means they can likely see the hive fleet before they are seen themselves and with faster than light sensors they will always have the information first.

Even the fighters in Star Wars can be proven to have kiloton yield lasers and low megaton yield torpedoes and missiles. Which will make things like spore pods easy prey.

Lastly, they do have the Death star prototype that is at the maw cluster by 18 BBY. They also have torpedo spheres which were what cracked planetary sieges before the Death Star. They also have the capability of making things like ramships, and the galaxy gun that were seen later but technologically possible at the time.

In short, they don't stand a chance when their opponent beats them in numbers on the ground and firepower in space.

While I applaud your defense of Star Wars, even if it was done in a quite rude manner:

THERE WERE NEVER MORE THAN 2,200,000 CLONES AT ANY GIVEN TIME. The initial batch was exactly 200,000 Clones. The only estimate after that was more than a million were produced. That could be anywhere from 1,000,000 to 1,900,000.

Military ships are only produced by large manufacturing companies. Rothana Engineering, Kuat Drive Yards, and The Corellian Engineering Corporation to name a few of a short list.

A billion capital ships? I assume you mean heavy military class, right? In which case your numbers are ludicrous. A Venator-class Star Destroyer needed a crew of 7,400 to operate efficiently.

Your math suggests we would have 7,400,000,000,000 crewman, mostly Clones, in the fleet aboard 1,000,000,000 Venator-class Star Destroyers. In six months. Each carrying 2,009 extra soldiers.

And how are they going to feed and supply these troops?

Also, 9,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids? One B-1 per second?

There were never so many droids. The Confederacy spread rumors of countless droids in such quantities, but they were just using fear tactics. As for one per second, this may be initially possible for perhaps a month before the stocks start to run out and they have to be build as supplies arrive. I like to think the construction rate is one per minute-and-one-half

Assuming all that, the average Clone to Droid kill ratio was 1:20. Or, if you account for the later change in their metallurgy, 1:50. B-1s are fragile like it's not even funny. Not to mention their lack of complex thought or tactical insight.

Like I said, a bloody stalemate.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Conservationist wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Conservationist wrote:

suicidal space marine wrote:well nerivant because the tryanids are a massive threat don't cost anything to build have weapons like the nova cannon and because they could evolve jedi powers

Tyranids don't have the nova cannon, it is imperial. Also they do cost biomass to create, even simple things like gaunts cost biomass. Third time lucky though you got the part about evolving jedi powers right, they may be able to absoorb the midichorians and evolve a creature with immense (talking about hundreds of thousands, anakin had 20000) amounts of midicholorians per cell. I like the thought of that.

They would need to eat a Jedi first and then the force, which does have it's own will to the point of actually impregnating Anakin's mother, would need to allow them to use it. If it were actually as easy as just packing them into the body then anybody could get a force shot.

According to this:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

They are present in all lifeforms, the only difference is amount present, since they are organic it would be a definite possibility that the tyranids can evolve some form of force powered creature once any person is consumed. They do have thier own limited intelligence. However, they are still organic and if found in sufficient amounts in an organic body (anakin) would be able to manifest without any prior training. Nids are masters of all things organic. Ooooh my imagination running wild again, swarmlord force choking...

You assume much without proof of anything. The mark of one who has given the subject too little thought. If it were so easy then anybody would be as force sensitive as they wished to be and surely Sith masters would have tried this method of easy power gain if it worked. Thus we can conclude that for whatever reason this isn't possible. We can also give thought to the idea that it may not be possible because of either the will of the force, or due to some fragile nature of the structures that embody the force.

Canadian 5th wrote:

dajobe wrote:attacking other people is not the way to win the debate, because it is that, a debate, not a "youre wrong, im right, your stupid, im smart" we have all given our opinions and so far from what i have seen your arguements are "THERES A BAGILLIION QUINTILLION DROIDS" and "THERES A SUPERWEAPON, WE JUST CANT NAME IT!". I give evolution the win, unfortunately, i am not a mod and cant finish on that note...

I actually have a source for my numbers and I have named the super weapons. The quintillions of droids number comes from the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionaryso that number can't be in dispute. The Super weapon is the Death Star prototype hidden in the Maw cluster that was completed before the first Death Star was actually started IIRC, this is sourced from The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. There are also torpedo spheres which were used to crack planetary defenses before the death star this quote here shows that even in the Republic era such technology existed "Similar torpedo platforms dated back to the Clone Wars, predating the development of high-powered beam-weapon technology which was first perfected with Eye of Palpatine..." So care to argue against these points?

Kasrkai wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:You seem to assume that the Hive fleet will last long enough to evolve while being crushed under the droid numbers that exist. How many tyranids are in a hive fleet again? Because they could face the full might of quintillions of droids. Yes, you heard me right that would be at least 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids if not 9,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids.

Want to debate that number? Well, you really can't it was given in an official source book and is considered canon. That means they're facing a quitillion droids with at least a million more a day on the way. Not to mention the capital ships and clone troops backing them up.

The clone troopers had at least 20,000,000 in their ranks just from counting the clones at various battles as well as the clones needed to fill the order for 1,000 Acclamator-class transports. However even with that they would have somehow needed to be able to outfight the droid army 100 trillion to one. Based on the movies this isn't possible as the clone seemed to fight the droids on an even basis so they must have had at least a few quadrillion cloned soldiers would have been needed to fight the droids.

You might say that one world couldn't have produced all of those and I would agree. However there was more than one world producing clones and beyond the first batch they were flash cloned instead of trained meaning that multiple batches per world could have been created over the year the conflict lasted.

Now, to potential capital ship production. Given that production of the DSII to where we saw it took only 6 months and that it has a volume of 214,000,000 kilometers cubed. If we take a Victory-class Star Destroyer's dimensions as a cube, instead of it's actual shape - increasing it's volume by a few times might I add - then it take up 0.15 kilometers cubed. Thus one could build 1.43 billion Victory-class Star Destroyers in 6 months. Crewing them would take a small fraction of the total cloned forces needing only 5.36 trillion clones, that number could be lessened by around half if we assume the soldiers they carry are droids.

So tell me, in six months can the hive fleet build a billion capital scale ships able to put out >200 Gigatons per main battery shot. Can they then still counter with a few quintillion of even the most common ground soldiers? Oh, did I mention the Super Battle droids, Vulture droids, Droidekas and other things that could also hit the battle field? How about the 33.6 billion fighters along with armed shuttles and the vehicle battalions?

This isn't to mention existing fleet assest, the prototype death star, and independent factions. Or the fact that other ships were built at the same time as the DSII increasing that number further. Nor does it take into account volunteers and conscription, though they hardly seem needed.


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Oh, and are people just going to talk around me and thus concede or will some challenger with actual facts try to challenge me?

So people have no excuses here are my other posts on this topic.
Second, numbers, we see B1 droids coming off the line at a rate of at least 1 per second. Given that the second Death Star was built with supplies sent in through a single sub contracted shipping company that line won't be shutting down anytime soon. Given that we didn't see other types of droids being built there we can safely say that droids are being built continuously at a rate of 1 or more per second.

What does that mean for the nids? Well, it means that with travel times being so short that they would be dealing with at least 86,000 B1 droid and support units each day from every planet that is building droids. It seems unlikely that only one world was building battle droids and that more lines wouldn't start in the event of a large war. Thus if even 10 planets are in action that means they would be facing around a million fresh droids per day in ground battles.

For fleet battles the ICS says that the Acclamator-class Transport has a peak weapons out put of 8.368e+20 joules or 200 Gigatons. Given that it isn't a true warship Venator and Victory-class ships will likely have a higher firepower. Separatist ships have less heavy firepower and more light weapons in addition to single large guns which take time to charge. Both are qualities that work well against the relatively slow and short ranged Nid vessels.

In both range and speed the Nids lose again. Ships in Star Wars can cross the galaxy in days at worst and have been sourced as having ten light minute range against predictable targets. This means they can likely see the hive fleet before they are seen themselves and with faster than light sensors they will always have the information first.

Even the fighters in Star Wars can be proven to have kiloton yield lasers and low megaton yield torpedoes and missiles. Which will make things like spore pods easy prey.

Lastly, they do have the Death star prototype that is at the maw cluster by 18 BBY. They also have torpedo spheres which were what cracked planetary sieges before the Death Star. They also have the capability of making things like ramships, and the galaxy gun that were seen later but technologically possible at the time.

In short, they don't stand a chance when their opponent beats them in numbers on the ground and firepower in space.

While I applaud your defense of Star Wars, even if it was done in a quite rude manner:

THERE WERE NEVER MORE THAN 2,200,000 CLONES AT ANY GIVEN TIME. The initial batch was exactly 200,000 Clones. The only estimate after that was more than a million were produced. That could be anywhere from 1,000,000 to 1,900,000.

Military ships are only produced by large manufacturing companies. Rothana Engineering, Kuat Drive Yards, and The Corellian Engineering Corporation to name a few of a short list.

A billion capital ships? I assume you mean heavy military class, right? In which case your numbers are ludicrous. A Venator-class Star Destroyer needed a crew of 7,400 to operate efficiently.

Your math suggests we would have 7,400,000,000,000 crewman, mostly Clones, in the fleet aboard 1,000,000,000 Venator-class Star Destroyers. In six months. Each carrying 2,009 extra soldiers.

And how are they going to feed and supply these troops?

Also, 9,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids? One B-1 per second?

There were never so many droids. The Confederacy spread rumors of countless droids in such quantities, but they were just using fear tactics. As for one per second, this may be initially possible for perhaps a month before the stocks start to run out and they have to be build as supplies arrive. I like to think the construction rate is one per minute-and-one-half

Assuming all that, the average Clone to Droid kill ratio was 1:20. Or, if you account for the later change in their metallurgy, 1:50. B-1s are fragile like it's not even funny. Not to mention their lack of complex thought or tactical insight.

Like I said, a bloody stalemate.

Oh look, we have a Karen Travis fanboy here.

First of all, the number that she put forth was 3,000,000 clones and that number has since be disproven time and again simply by the canon clone wars cartoon and CG series and the numbers we see there.

As for the ships, I named them as Victory-class Star Destroyers in my post with a minimum crew of <2,000 and a troop compliment of ~2,000 per ship. As for them being built, they might be built at those places, but you're wrong about the number of places that can build them. Given that the DSII was built in the middle of nowhere in six months you could really set down a new shipyard anywhere and just ship resources in as needed. We know that shipping from a single private company can exceed 214 million cubic kilometers of goods in six months so raw materials are clearly no issue. Given that they are made of standardized parts we also know that droid labour can put them together swiftly.

How many mouths can even a fraction of that 214 million cubic kilometers of food feed? What if you brought in a second shipping company?

Oh, and as for the number of crew, even if you crash trained civilians with a galactic population of averaging around 17 billion per world by rough estimate of the map below:



That means even if the old republic could only recruit 1% of the population of a thousand worlds they would get 170 billion recruits, even if half wash you get 85 billion and if you assume that a full 3/4's are needed for logistics you still get 21 billion as crew. This would mean that you could use flash trained clones for important jobs and recruits for less skill positions and still have a moderately effective force able to crew at least 10 million Victory-class Star Destroyers. Thus even if you dislike my clone and droid numbers even a very limited recruiting campaign/draft would net you a ton of people.

You claim rumors, but you lack a citation sourcing your claim so please provide that. Even so, your argument against there numbers don't work as even if we assume that they got one hundred times less material than was used for the DSII - a feat which was done by one company in secrecy - over a six month span for droid production (leaving them 214 thousand cubic kilometers of material) and that a droid stands 2 meters tall by 1 meter wide and 1 meter deep they could still build 107 quadrillion battle droids [214,000,000 cubic kilometer / (86,000 droids x 2 cubic meters)] . This would take them around 6.8 billion production lines to do, but given the fact that we know that Star Wars has factory worlds this isn't going to be an issue as even if a line and it's supply dock takes up 20 square kilometers a Mars sized world can hold 7.2 million such lines and an earth sized world could hold 25.5 million such lines. If we say that each line is twenty meters tall and bury these lines to a depth of 200 meters these numbers now rise to 72 million lines and 255 million lines for Earth and Mar sized worlds. We know that Star Wars can bury things at least a few kilometers deep because of the deep bunkers mentioned in several sources.

What is your minute and a half build time based off of?

Given the sabotage effected a single line I don't see why the metallurgy of a large fraction of droids would be off thus the needed lines would be able to send out 584 trillion replacement droids at a time to counter them. Thus you would still need at least 29 billion cloned soldiers to stand against those odds. Also, even if such numbers weren't needed in the conflict and many droids never saw use, I think I have shown that should the nids be a threat that under Palpatine the galaxy would be more than able to fight back.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Conservationist wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Conservationist wrote:

suicidal space marine wrote:well nerivant because the tryanids are a massive threat don't cost anything to build have weapons like the nova cannon and because they could evolve jedi powers

Tyranids don't have the nova cannon, it is imperial. Also they do cost biomass to create, even simple things like gaunts cost biomass. Third time lucky though you got the part about evolving jedi powers right, they may be able to absoorb the midichorians and evolve a creature with immense (talking about hundreds of thousands, anakin had 20000) amounts of midicholorians per cell. I like the thought of that.

They would need to eat a Jedi first and then the force, which does have it's own will to the point of actually impregnating Anakin's mother, would need to allow them to use it. If it were actually as easy as just packing them into the body then anybody could get a force shot.

According to this:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

They are present in all lifeforms, the only difference is amount present, since they are organic it would be a definite possibility that the tyranids can evolve some form of force powered creature once any person is consumed. They do have thier own limited intelligence. However, they are still organic and if found in sufficient amounts in an organic body (anakin) would be able to manifest without any prior training. Nids are masters of all things organic. Ooooh my imagination running wild again, swarmlord force choking...

You assume much without proof of anything. The mark of one who has given the subject too little thought. If it were so easy then anybody would be as force sensitive as they wished to be and surely Sith masters would have tried this method of easy power gain if it worked. Thus we can conclude that for whatever reason this isn't possible. We can also give thought to the idea that it may not be possible because of either the will of the force, or due to some fragile nature of the structures that embody the force.

Midi-Chlorians are a symptom of force sensitivity. Not the sign of a Jedi/Sith master.

Also, you're being quite rude in all your arguments.

Hey! Nihilus was a Sith (sort of)! He don't count, I said Jedi.

Old Sith species was even stronger, anyway.

*COUGHsupernovaspellCOUGH*

Psienesis wrote:

Hey! Nihilus was a Sith (sort of)! He don't count, I said Jedi.

Old Sith species was even stronger, anyway.

*COUGHsupernovaspellCOUGH*

Luke Skywalker is, at best, a Grey Jedi. He Force Chokes two Gammorean Guards when entering Jabba's Palace in Return of the Jedi. He attempts to Dominate Jabba himself (a stronger, Dark Side version of Compulsion)... and the robe, tunic and breeches he's wearing in the Jabba's Palace scene are the apprentice and "knight" attire of the Sith.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Karen Travis wrote the Republic Commando novels, some New Jedi Order novels, and all the novels with the mandalorian parts in the Legacy of the Force series. All pretty great books IMO.

Kasrkai wrote:I give up. Who is Karen Travs? Expanded universe author?

And might I say, you are one aggressive person?

Anyway, a Venator with 2,000 crew members wouldn't be as efficient as a fully crewed one, right? Such a fraction would probably run things slower and less effectively in combat, lowering their worth.

Uhhhhh... Death Star....

Well, I suppose it's not really an apt example, as The Empire's take-over let them get whatever they want from whomever they please. The Republic wouldn't be capable of that kind of constructive scale. Besides, it was build in the middle of no-where 'cause no ship yard is gonna hold that monstrosity.

I see your point on droid production, but there can only be so many factories because most of the useful planets are either populated with cites/farms or other factories/mines. At the point in time we are working with, many planets and peoples would not stand for such militarization. A lot of The Galaxy's raw materials would end up in the hands of private and independent governing sectors because of The Republic's form of governing.

My minute and a half is based on no official source. I thought I had made it apparent, so my reason is so that a factory can still hold plenty of emergency parts and supplies, and still make 960 droids per factory per day. As for the metallurgy of a droid, a group of ARCs made the chief metallurgist add 5% Caradium (I think it was Caradium) to the metals recipe for all droid factories. It worked everywhere, at least for a while.

For recruits, I'm not sure The Republic can straight conscript. It was my knowledge that they requested troops from individual planets or sectors, who did their own conscription.

Finally, I bolded your request. In the Clone commando novels, many commandos are complaining about the blurry info on the number of droids. It was Omega squad who out right questioned the droid forces IIRC.

Psienesis wrote:Karen Travis is something like the C.S. Goto or the Matt Ward of the Star Wars fandom.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Kasrkai wrote:I give up. Who is Karen Travs? Expanded universe author?

And might I say, you are one aggressive person?

Anyway, a Venator with 2,000 crew members wouldn't be as efficient as a fully crewed one, right? Such a fraction would probably run things slower and less effectively in combat, lowering their worth.

Uhhhhh... Death Star....

Well, I suppose it's not really an apt example, as The Empire's take-over let them get whatever they want from whomever they please. The Republic wouldn't be capable of that kind of constructive scale. Besides, it was build in the middle of no-where 'cause no ship yard is gonna hold that monstrosity.

I see your point on droid production, but there can only be so many factories because most of the useful planets are either populated with cites/farms or other factories/mines. At the point in time we are working with, many planets and peoples would not stand for such militarization. A lot of The Galaxy's raw materials would end up in the hands of private and independent governing sectors because of The Republic's form of governing.

My minute and a half is based on no official source. I thought I had made it apparent, so my reason is so that a factory can still hold plenty of emergency parts and supplies, and still make 960 droids per factory per day. As for the metallurgy of a droid, a group of ARCs made the chief metallurgist add 5% Caradium (I think it was Caradium) to the metals recipe for all droid factories. It worked everywhere, at least for a while.

For recruits, I'm not sure The Republic can straight conscript. It was my knowledge that they requested troops from individual planets or sectors, who did their own conscription.

Finally, I bolded your request. In the Clone commando novels, many commandos are complaining about the blurry info on the number of droids. It was Omega squad who out right questioned the droid forces IIRC.

You keep saying Venator I keep saying Victory, they are two different ships.

The Republic was building the DS or did you not catch the end of RotS where they did a flyby?

On planets there are 18 billion systems in the Star Wars galaxy many systems have planets that aren't inhabited and many systems themselves are mapped but not inhabited. Space is not an issue in space.

Ah, good old sources from Karen Travis, the author of the Commando line of books and a person who's numbers and stories have actually caused such an uproar that they have been retconed in many cases. Given that the Star Wars canon system says that a source maybe disregarded if it doesn't fit with canon the fact that her books disagree with the cartoons and CGI clone wars series mean that much of what she's written is of dubious weight at best. Thus anything in the Clone Commando novels should be taken with a large helping of sodium chloride.

Did you notice how low my recruitment numbers were? 1% population from less than a thousandth of the million systems quoted in ANH.

Psienesis wrote:Karen Travis is something like the C.S. Goto or the Matt Ward of the Star Wars fandom.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Karen Travis is something like the C.S. Goto or the Matt Ward of the Star Wars fandom.

Are you serious? What part of her writing is anything like those monstrosities? Her books are great!

MandalorynOranj wrote:It's been a few years since I've read the books in question, but I'm assuming you're referring to the Republic Commando series. I don't remember any Mandalorian spanking, but as for Palpatine working with Jedi, that was before he revealed himself to be Sidious so of course he would have had to maintain relations with the Jedi. And she did t "write the Clone Wars as being a brush fire conflict," she just focused more on the characters and the events immediately affecting them rather than the big picture. It makes characters more relatable when you see them in the light of their personal struggles and small-scale conflicts and not involved in some galaxy-spanning mega-war.

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Actualy I'm wrong on those numbers, but according to the Star Wars wiki, Traviss is right. From the article on the GAR, under organization: "Grand Army—10 systems armies, a total of 3,000,000 units" It seems there were about 3 million clones.

MandalorynOranj wrote:That's actually more clones than the movies tell us there were, there were only around 2 million at the point of their greatest numbers. And I don't see what that has to do with the number of citizens on any planet, it all had to do with Kamino's cloning capabilities and the depths of the Republic's wallet.

As for the Mandos, I felt she portrayed them more or less exactly ad they had always been portrayed, a strict but honorable warrior culture with an affinity for mercenary work. Especially as no other author had ever really gone in-depth into their culture or day-to-day life, what exactly is it you're taking offense to?


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Actualy I'm wrong on those numbers, but according to the Star Wars wiki, Traviss is right. From the article on the GAR, under organization: "Grand Army—10 systems armies, a total of 3,000,000 units" It seems there were about 3 million clones.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Ok, I haven't watched any of the CGI Clone Wars show (no way it could ever stack up to the old cartoon one) and I kind of abandoned Star Wars after discovering 40k about two years ago, so I guess I missed out on all that. But according to the Star Wars wiki, she's spot on with the numbers. This was a good debate though, it's nice to have a discussion where both parties keep their heads


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Honest question out of curiosity, if that number is so disputed and people are that upset about it, why is her figure still on the wiki?

Ah, good old sources from Karen Travis, the author of the Commando line of books and a person who's numbers and stories have actually caused such an uproar that they have been retconed in many cases. Given that the Star Wars canon system says that a source maybe disregarded if it doesn't fit with canon the fact that her books disagree with the cartoons and CGI clone wars series mean that much of what she's written is of dubious weight at best. Thus anything in the Clone Commando novels should be taken with a large helping of sodium chloride.

Karen Travis is something like the C.S. Goto or the Matt Ward of the Star Wars fandom.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Some people here need to calm the hell down.

MandalorynOranj wrote:They have a superweapon for literally everything.

Canadian 5th wrote:Sad that people aren't willing to actually bother with numbers and threads like this are mostly filled with people posting either complete pulled from thin air opinion without doing any research. Then, when you present an argument and point out a lack of research people claim you're flaming them.

There should be standards for research and evidence if you want to conduct a good debate. Of course the signal to noise ratio on this site is like watching TV with rabbit ears in a faraday cage. If this wasn't the biggest site for wargaming I wouldn't even bother. I'm still tempted to not bother given that FoW, the system I care more about has its own active forum that has players who know the game better than this site's player base seems to.

Frazzled wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:Sad that people aren't willing to actually bother with numbers and threads like this are mostly filled with people posting either complete pulled from thin air opinion without doing any research. Then, when you present an argument and point out a lack of research people claim you're flaming them.

There should be standards for research and evidence if you want to conduct a good debate. Of course the signal to noise ratio on this site is like watching TV with rabbit ears in a faraday cage. If this wasn't the biggest site for wargaming I wouldn't even bother. I'm still tempted to not bother given that FoW, the system I care more about has its own active forum that has players who know the game better than this site's player base seems to.

Its not a debate society. Its a board about toy soldiers. If you want to have a serious, carefully detailed and authenticated debate about who's sci fi epeen is better: Star Wars or 40K I respectfully suggest you need to reexamine your life choices.

Frazzled wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:Sad that people aren't willing to actually bother with numbers and threads like this are mostly filled with people posting either complete pulled from thin air opinion without doing any research. Then, when you present an argument and point out a lack of research people claim you're flaming them.

There should be standards for research and evidence if you want to conduct a good debate. Of course the signal to noise ratio on this site is like watching TV with rabbit ears in a faraday cage. If this wasn't the biggest site for wargaming I wouldn't even bother. I'm still tempted to not bother given that FoW, the system I care more about has its own active forum that has players who know the game better than this site's player base seems to.

Its not a debate society. Its a board about toy soldiers. If you want to have a serious, carefully detailed and authenticated debate about who's sci fi epeen is better: Star Wars or 40K I respectfully suggest you need to reexamine your life choices.