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Sorry folks, but this is going to be long.

The following comments were actually posted from this thread. But because it is more about my reports than the actual topic of that thread, I've decided to respond here instead of further derailing that thread.


@Sir_Prometheus:

First of all, I appreciate you putting in the time and effort to read, evaluate and critique my reports with your observations. Though we may disagree sharply in the previous thread, by examining and analyzing the reports, I hope that both you and I may come to a better understanding of that which is the Crowe-purifier-dread build.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:I suppose I might see you there. I'm looking over your ard boys battle reports, and will have a response for you.

How many people were at your ard boyz? Doesn't look to be that many.

Last year, we had 24 because there was only 1 location in our area. This year, that got cut into about half because GW added another venue in our area. I think we had about 10-12 people only this time.

We had 13. Somehow I got the impression yours was a bit smaller from the reports.

So let's take a look at those batreps, shall we? I've decided this is a better thread for it rather than hijacking that other thread.

First of all, I'd like to say I appreciate the service you provide in doing such detailed batreps. I'm pretty lazy about doing mine, and they aren't quite as detailed. http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/ard-boyz-battle-reports/

A few observations, mostly about your list:

I like the idea with the warding staves in small squads, to make a tarpit out of a small unit that might otherwise get blown away. Good idea. I do wonder if 4 of them was really needed, but I like that you did differentiate with some units have having hammers, and some staves.

I find that warding staves make them much more resilient against assaulty armies. It seems as if more than half of the armies at tournaments are assault-based armies nowadays, especially with all the great assault units and HQ's out there. At 2500, you will see a lot of deathstar units. The warding staves are to give me a fighting chance against these armies.

Also, for some reason, I have a tendency to perils while casting Hammerhand or Cleansing Flame (I periled twice and failed like 5-6 times in game 1 against Space Wolves). Moreso when I go up against Eldar and their damned runes of warding. With the warding stave on my sergeant, I can cast my psychic powers with little fear of dying from them thanks to the new FAQ.

The warding stave may cost 25pts, but if it even saves 1 purifier from a power weapon wound, then it's made it's points back. More often than not, I save my purifier's lives several times over. For example, in 1 battle against Logan and his wolf guards, my warding stave saved 3 times - against Logan, then the wolf claw, then the thunderhammer. That's 3 purifier lives it saved (72pts of models not including wargear). Then there was the time my lone warding stave made about 24 saves in a row! That's a crazy 576pts of lives it just saved (of course it was only just 1 guy...). I've found the warding stave to be absolutely worth it.

I like the addition of the interceptors, it adds some much needed flavor to your army. They also look like the did a lot of heavily lifting for you. I've only used interceptors a couple times, but my own experience indicates, even worse than purifiers, in small squads they're easy to dakka down, and even more expensive. This has led me to think they work better in 10 man squads, which often isn't an investment I'm up for. I'm curious as to why yours didn't see more fire like mine do, whether you were real cautious with them, or people prioritze differently over there, or what.

To me, they are a sacrificial unit. I honestly don't care if they die....but not until they've served their purpose. So far, they've survived until it was their time to die (sacrifice themselves). Compared to the purifiers and due to the fact that they're not scoring, a lot of times, opponents would choose to ignore them, especially if you protect them.

You still have to protect the interceptors. Small 5-man squads can easily hide behind terrain (and even behind vehicles) so they can't get shot at. Also, you can deploy them further back (and out of range of a lot of guns). With their ability to shunt, the distance is negligible to them, but makes a big difference in regards to who can shoot them. So for example, if DE venoms advance to shoot at my interceptors way in the back of my deployment zone (that is, if I don't deploy them out of LOS or in reserves), they may perhaps kill them....but then they will also be in the range of psycannons next turn when my purifiers advance. Finally, you can always reserve your interceptors. Just don't forget about them like I did in game 1.

You by and large were quite aggressive with the Psyflemen, which is good, it keeps the reinforced aegis up front, but why, oh why, didn't you give a couple of them, the venerables, an assault cannon? With BS5, it actually performs much better than the autocannon against a lot targets. You were almost always within range. I prefer to have a psycannon, DCCW and str 5 bolter combo, which has almost as much output, though at shorter ranges, than the psyflemen, but if you're not interested in the CC utility you can always do autocannon left arm with psycannon right arm. That actually has a lot more firepower than the dual autocannon arms, and once again, seemed like you almost always had the range.

That is actually a good suggestion which I may try next time.

You really drive your purifiers hard into CC, rather than holding back to shoot, which I find odd, since you've dedicated 40% of the squad to a shooting role.

My belief is that in a tournament, you have to play aggressively. My shooting is good, but my assault is also quite deadly, with 2 halberds, cleansing flame against numbers, a warding stave to protect me in combat and psyk-out grenades to kill other grey knights, plus fearlessness so that I won't break. Without the benefit of massed S5 stormbolters, I need to threaten the army with not just my shooting, but also my assault. And believe me, 30 purifiers plus Crowe coming your way is intimidating to all but the more assaulty armies.

Moreover, I believe that the advancing army has the advantage, especially in objectives-based games. That's why I had to advance towards Gus' Tau in game #2 and also why I advanced against 45 assault terminators in my practice game #2.

Let's keep in mind the ratio here. Your 5 man purifier unit 2 psycannons, rhino and the warding stave costs 209 pts. My 10 man with 2 psycannons and psybolts in a rhino costs 280. That's 74% So if you gave up 4 of those squads, you could get 3 GKSS fully equipped, maxed out. 50% more bodies. Way more Dakka.

I usually don't like to compare units in a vacuum, because a lot of the times, it also depends on what role you give them. Instead let's compare armies. Suppose I keep the dreads, vindicare and interceptors and swap out Crowe and purifiers for a Brotherhood-champion and strikers. The new list may look something like this:


Bro-champ
Psyfleman Vendread - 195
Psyfleman Vendread - 195
Vindicare - 145

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 296
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 296
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 296
9x Strikers - 1x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 266
5x Strikers - Psybolt Razorback w/Searchlights - 151

5x Interceptors - Psycannon, MC-Hammer - 155

Psyfleman dread - 135
Psyfleman dread - 135
Psyfleman dread - 135

2500


I've got 14 more bodies, S5 stormbolters, more scoring units (thanks to combat squads) a couple more hammers, and 2 less KP's. In exchange, I've lost 1 more unit and transport (thus, my threat saturation is diminished), less resilience in assault (no warding staves), no cleansing flame, less psycannons and units that can break and run away. Hmmmm....this is a tough one. I think some play-testing may be required, though if I want to spam stormbolters, I would prefer my list #2 (with S5 stormbolters on 30 interceptors and 30 strikers).

Individual reports:

Purifiers vs Ard Boyz 1: TWC Space Wolves http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/388321.page

Looks to be a pretty standard variety of SW list. Surprised he didn't take a rune priest.

1) good job reserving your traitor, that's what I did, too, though I didn't baby sit him, I used Driago's psychic communion to keep him off board for longer. (yet another benefit of being Crowe)

2) forgetting night fight probably helped you out. Any long fang or razorback shots that didn't go straight on your psyflemen would seem to be a mistake. When I read "wrecked/weapon destoryed stunned rhin" I read a psyfleman that didn't have the same done to it.

He fired at my rhinos because they didn't have cover. My dreads did. Moreover, he wanted my infantry out so that his TWC has something to assault.

3) How exactly did you wipe out 6 TWC first turn? That's 12 T5 wounds, with good saves. (more, the Lord was in there, right?) Your army has the firepower but not, I suspect, the right guns in the right place turn 1. I'm think you must have gotten pretty lucky there, correct?

My entire army advanced 6" so that everyone was in range and concentrated on his TWC unit. That's 20 TL S8 shots, 24 psycannon shots and 12 stormbolter shots. He was rolling below average, rolling 3 1's for his Wolf Lord (in 2+ runic armor!). I must admit that was perhaps the only luck I had in that game (or rather, bad luck on his part for failing so many armor saves).

4) I think the battle rolls pretty predicatably from there, with the crippling effects of not having shot your psyfleman more in the early game, and losing half of his rock units turn 1. But your enemy seemed either unaware, or forgot, about the Heroic Sacrifice power on Crowe. Getting into CC with him with expensive units, let alone the lord, was just silly. On the other hand, Crowe would have been fairly trivial to shoot up.

I actually told him at the start about Heroic Sacrifice. He either forgot or under-estimated the ability. I find that quite normal. You can explain to someone, but a lot of times, they don't realize how nasty it is (or they forget) until I take out their uber-HQ with it. Every single opponent where I took out their valuable unit, I've warned them about Crowe and Heroic Sacrifice. Yet, I still take them out. Go figure.

Also, don't forget the fact that his 550pt+ TWC+Lord is his main offensive unit. To hold them back because of Crowe would be a guaranteed loss. I took out 1 entire TWC unit + lord in 1 turn of shooting. Imagine him giving me more time to shoot down his army. Due to difficult terrain, they failed their charge, which was why I was able to assault them with Crowe.

And you can't shoot down Crowe, not when he's in a transport. He's got 2+ against the missile launchers and was out of LOS of the lazorbacks due to the hill. If you play him correctly, it isn't easy to shoot down Crowe. So far, in all the games I've played, he's only got shot down 3 times (twice by Tau and once by IG) and that's because I had to go towards my opponent's ultra-shooty armies.

I am struck by how much better GKSS would have done through much of this. You would have been stunning/immobilizing rhinos much more easily, while destroying them at about the same rate. You would have been much more able to deal with both TWC and GH at range, before they even got close, and when they did get close, sure, you could have used purifiers to protect them.

That is a "what if" scenario that would require playtesting. Honestly, I couldn't really say for sure which would've done better. S5 stormbolters would have definitely helped, but with 1 less unit and transport, I might not have been able to go after his traitor unit.



More to come later.....

I think the switch of 3 squads of Purifier to 2 large GKSS isn't perfect mind, you lose out on a lot of bonuses (as well as gaining some of course), including:
- More units/scoring units.
- Another rhino/vehicle saturation.
- Cleansing Flame(!)
- Fearlessness
- Ability to shoot at more targets
- Cheaper Halberds

As I said, obviously you gain a lot of bonuses, but I wouldn't call it a perfect solution by any means of as black & white as is implied IMHO.

Then again, it could work. Swapping 3 Purifier squads for this would give you 5 more bodies, Str5 bolters etc. and it would also leave extra points to spend on whatever you swap the vindicare for. I'd also say it's more original than the all-purifiers, which is something I value at least, being a Space Wolf player .
Ultimately, I don't doubt JY's ability and he knows his purifier list very well, which may not be the case if it was tweaked, although I am probably still in favour of such an idea, despite it's flaws which I feel were worth pointing out.

jy2 wrote:
Let's keep in mind the ratio here. Your 5 man purifier unit 2 psycannons, rhino and the warding stave costs 209 pts. My 10 man with 2 psycannons and psybolts in a rhino costs 280. That's 74% So if you gave up 4 of those squads, you could get 3 GKSS fully equipped, maxed out. 50% more bodies. Way more Dakka.

I usually don't like to compare units in a vacuum, because a lot of the times, it also depends on what role you give them. Instead let's compare armies. Suppose I keep the dreads, vindicare and interceptors and swap out Crowe and purifiers for a Brotherhood-champion and strikers. The new list may look something like this:


Bro-champ
Psyfleman Vendread - 195
Psyfleman Vendread - 195
Vindicare - 145

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 296
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 296
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 296
9x Strikers - 1x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 266
5x Strikers - Psybolt Razorback w/Searchlights - 151

5x Interceptors - Psycannon, MC-Hammer - 155

Psyfleman dread - 135
Psyfleman dread - 135
Psyfleman dread - 135

2500


I've got 14 more bodies, S5 stormbolters, more scoring units (thanks to combat squads) a couple more hammers, and 2 less KP's. In exchange, I've lost 1 more unit and transport (thus, my threat saturation is diminished), less resilience in assault (no warding staves), no cleansing flame, less psycannons and units that can break and run away. Hmmmm....this is a tough one. I think some play-testing may be required, though if I want to spam stormbolters, I would prefer my list #2 (with S5 stormbolters on 30 interceptors and 30 strikers).

That kind of list wasn't really what I was suggesting either, and why are we going straight from spamming one thing, to spamming the other? Can we use some balance?

Rather, I was suggesting 3 full 10 man GKSS squads, fully equipped, and something like 2 purifier squads, which it looks like by the points would be more than minimum, and less than maximum size. You could still use the warding staves in the purifiers, if you like, I think that was a good idea.

Now, you can't fit in two purifiers with a normal HQ and your 5 freaking dreadnoughts but I still kinda that's just a ridiculous number of psyflemen. I suppose, if you're really attached to that idea, you can still keep crowe on just have the two purifiers be troops. It seems like you're good at using him, the Brochamp doesn't really work unless you use a LR, I feel.

I also wouldn't put hammers in all the GKSS squads, I find mine rarely get used. I would however, put them in the purifers squads, which are going to be much further forward.


Something like this:
2500 Pts - Grey Knights Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2498

HQ: Castellan Crowe (1#, 150 pts)
1 Castellan Crowe, 150 pts

Troops: Grey Knight Strike Squad (11#, 280 pts)
1 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 20 pts + Psybolt Ammunition 20
1 Justicar, 20 pts
2 Grey Knights, 60 pts = 2 * 30 (base cost 20 + Psycannon 10)
7 Grey Knights, 140 pts = 7 * 20
1 Rhino, 40 pts

Troops: Grey Knight Strike Squad (11#, 280 pts)
1 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 20 pts + Psybolt Ammunition 20
1 Justicar, 20 pts
2 Grey Knights, 60 pts = 2 * 30 (base cost 20 + Psycannon 10)
7 Grey Knights, 140 pts = 7 * 20
1 Rhino, 40 pts

Troops: Grey Knight Strike Squad (11#, 280 pts)
1 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 20 pts + Psybolt Ammunition 20
1 Justicar, 20 pts
2 Grey Knights, 60 pts = 2 * 30 (base cost 20 + Psycannon 10)
7 Grey Knights, 140 pts = 7 * 20
1 Rhino, 40 pts

Heavy Support: Dreadnought (1#, 135 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 135 pts = (base cost 115 + Psybolt Ammunition 5 + Twin-Linked Autocannon 10 + Twin-Linked Autocannon 5)

Heavy Support: Dreadnought (1#, 135 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 135 pts = (base cost 115 + Psybolt Ammunition 5 + Twin-Linked Autocannon 10 + Twin-Linked Autocannon 5)

Heavy Support: Dreadnought (1#, 135 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 135 pts = (base cost 115 + Psybolt Ammunition 5 + Twin-Linked Autocannon 10 + Twin-Linked Autocannon 5)

Elite: Venerable Dreadnought (1#, 190 pts)
1 Venerable Dreadnought, 190 pts = (base cost 175 + Psybolt Ammunition 5 + Assault Cannon 10)

Elite: Venerable Dreadnought (1#, 190 pts)
1 Venerable Dreadnought, 190 pts = (base cost 175 + Psybolt Ammunition 5 + Assault Cannon 10)

Elite: Vindicare Assassin (1#, 145 pts)
1 Vindicare Assassin, 145 pts

Troops: Purifier Squad (6#, 214 pts)
1 Purifier Squad, 0 pts
1 Knight of the Flame, 49 pts = (base cost 24 + Nemesis Warding Stave 25)
1 Purifier, 29 pts = (base cost 24 + Nemesis Daemonhammer 5)
1 Purifier, 34 pts = (base cost 24 + Psycannon 10)
2 Purifier, 52 pts = 2 * 26 (base cost 24 + Nemesis Force Halberd 2)
1 Razorback, 50 pts = (base cost 45 + Psybolt Ammunition 5)

Troops: Purifier Squad (6#, 214 pts)
1 Purifier Squad, 0 pts
1 Knight of the Flame, 49 pts = (base cost 24 + Nemesis Warding Stave 25)
1 Purifier, 29 pts = (base cost 24 + Nemesis Daemonhammer 5)
1 Purifier, 34 pts = (base cost 24 + Psycannon 10)
2 Purifier, 52 pts = 2 * 26 (base cost 24 + Nemesis Force Halberd 2)
1 Razorback, 50 pts = (base cost 45 + Psybolt Ammunition 5)

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Interceptor Squad (5#, 150 pts)
1 Grey Knight Interceptor Squad, 0 pts
1 Justicar, 36 pts = (base cost 26 + Nemesis Daemonhammer 10)
1 Grey Knight, 36 pts = (base cost 26 + Psycannon 10)
3 Grey Knights, 78 pts = 3 * 26


Not the list I would run, but I think it keeps in context with what you were doing without just spamming purifiers as far as the eye can see. Gives you a lot more bodies, a lot better shooting, gives you some leading CC capacity where it counts, and as you noted, actually gives you potentially more scoring units. I wouldn't, 5 scorers is almost always enough. I think more important thing is actually that you have scoring units that can last much longer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:I think the switch of 3 squads of Purifier to 2 large GKSS isn't perfect mind, you lose out on a lot of bonuses (as well as gaining some of course), including:
- More units/scoring units.
- Another rhino/vehicle saturation.
- Cleansing Flame(!)
- Fearlessness
- Ability to shoot at more targets
- Cheaper Halberds

As I said, obviously you gain a lot of bonuses, but I wouldn't call it a perfect solution by any means of as black & white as is implied IMHO.

Then again, it could work. Swapping 3 Purifier squads for this would give you 5 more bodies, Str5 bolters etc. and it would also leave extra points to spend on whatever you swap the vindicare for. I'd also say it's more original than the all-purifiers, which is something I value at least, being a Space Wolf player .
Ultimately, I don't doubt JY's ability and he knows his purifier list very well, which may not be the case if it was tweaked, although I am probably still in favour of such an idea, despite it's flaws which I feel were worth pointing out.

How did we get to the point where switching out a modified force org using melee-specialized elites as bulk shooting troops for the basic troop choice of the freaking army get considered some how novel?

You folks spend too much time in the internet echo chamber. It's not all about purifers and psyflemen, kinda the whole point of what I was saying.

Continued from this thread.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Purifiers vs Ard Boyz 2: Tau (rematch) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/388321.page

So, I play Tau. They were actually my first army, even the army played last time I did the Ard Boyz, which was a few years ago. I've largely stopped playing them mostly because psychic powers mess them up too easily. I, too, think they can be surprisingly good, but it all depends against what. I'm really surprised this guy made it to third place. Partly because of inherent weaknesses of Tau against some units, but mostly because it doesn't seem like a very good list.

1) His broadsides are all good, and his death rain crisis suits have their place, but he needs to put more plasma shots in there. 3 isn't enough. It's not surprising he wrecked 4 rhinos a turn, that's what the deathrains are designed to do, but he's way over specialized, not everything is a rhino.

That surprised me as well too. Typically, everyone is touting about fireknives, with maybe only 1 unit of deathrains and the rest being fireknives. That's twice now that he's used this build with some success against my army. Not just my army, he dominated his other opponents as well. I think that's a testament to both his build and his skill.

But should I really be that surprised? After all, my army is built on the same concept as well - high volume of fire with little AP1/2 shooting. Both our armies will kill you by forcing you to take a lot of saves, and we're both very good at taking on mech. I've done well despite the lack of plasmas/meltas.

2) Why the heck doesn't he have more Devil Fish? DFs are the best thing Tau have going for them right now, overpriced as they are, mostly because they're tough and can tank shock you off objective. If he'd have 2 more DFs (you can put Kroot inside them, btw) you never could have beaten him at the Objective game.

I think he took a gamble on this and it paid off somewhat. Many tournament armies nowadays tend to be mechanized and geared towards fighting other mechanized lists. Mine certainly does (though it can also take on infantry...it's just that I fight mech more efficiently). He took an "anti-tournament-meta" list and happened to go up against 3 meched armies.

Also, the scenario for Ard Boyz only had 1 objectives-based mission. Thus, mobility wasn't as important in this tournament as it would have otherwise been in other tournaments. Plan for 2 possible massacres and just hope you have enough firepower to cripple/wipe your opponent in the objectives one. It just happened that he faced his toughest opponent on his most difficult scenario....and he still almost beat me!

Lastly, I suspect that he owned no more than 2 DF's. He actually had to borrow about 300pts of Tau to get to the 2500pts.

In tournaments, it's all about being balanced. However, if you know your local meta and if you know what the missions are, I would say that one would be a fool not to take advantage of that type of information. My Tau opponent was pretty smart to adjust his list, and it seemed to have paid off.

3) I love pathfinders, but they're a force multiplier unit, they need a good partner to amplify. What was the point of the pathfinders in this list? Most of his firepower is twin linked, doesn't really need a boost to BS all that much. I suppose reducing cover saves is nice, but he doesn't have that much low AP. I just don't see a good synergy for them here. Some seeker missiles would have been a good idea, or more firepower that is less twin-linked.

I suppose it's for redundancy, and in his battle against me, it worked well. If he had only brought 1 unit, I would've trained all my guns on them and blew them off the table turn 1. However, with 2 units, there was just no way I could do that without pumping copious amounts of firepower into them (probably 2 full turns of fire). Thus, I just decided to ignore them. Taking away cover from 2 units meant that he had 2 guaranteed vehicle kills per turn, and ended with him killing more vehicles than my 2 other Ard boyz opponents combined.

I'm sure they also did wonders against the triple-raven BA army as well as the other grey knight player.

4) Firewarriors simply should not be on the ground, immobile.

While I normally tend to agree, with 12 suits, 6 broadsides, 1 railhead and 2 units of pathfinders, those firewarriors have more than enough units to take the heat off them.

5) some Piranhas would have done him a lot of good.

6) His broadsides should have messed your psyflemen up. What were they doing this whole time? I see a lot news about how you tried to kill them, very little about what they did back to you.

His broadsides were messing up my rhinos and dreads. Originally, he concentrated on my mobility. Take out those rhinos and then his infantry had targets to shoot at. After his broadsides and deathrains took them out, then he went after my dreads. I believe all 3 of my dreads were taken out by his broadsides.

All that said, it sounds like he fought you to a stand still. You're right, that he doesn't really care how you good you are in CC, you'll squish him just the same. It's actually quite liberating, as a Tau player, when your opponent is talking about how badass his units are, and you're just like "it's all the same to me buddy, I'm just trying to shoot you before you get there."

Which, you know, once again is an argument for using more GKSS. More shooting, more bodies, and if they wanted to get into CC they're gonna kill the Tau just as dead.

His army matched up well against mine. I'm more efficient at killing mech, not 2+ broadsides and kroots with 3+ cover. He had more than enough firepower to take out 6 rhinos after stripping away their cover. And his army specializes in killing elite MEQ armies like mine. I'm just glad I faced him in the objectives-based scenario rather than the other 2.

More bodies would have definitely helped against Gus' Tau, as long as they don't fail morale and run away.



Part 3 to come (I told you it was long)....


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

metalgear1313 wrote:Well, as usual, a very surprising end to a fantastic game, Good job

As far as the semi-finals go, good luck and may the warlords of the dice smile favorably upon you!

Thanks! I sure could use it.

Just had a game against Reecius last night (he got 1st at the Ard Boyz preliminaries at his locale). May be a preview of the Semi-finals as he will be going to the same location as me. Look out for his batrep of our battle.

Just Dave wrote:I think the switch of 3 squads of Purifier to 2 large GKSS isn't perfect mind, you lose out on a lot of bonuses (as well as gaining some of course), including:
- More units/scoring units.
- Another rhino/vehicle saturation.
- Cleansing Flame(!)
- Fearlessness
- Ability to shoot at more targets
- Cheaper Halberds

As I said, obviously you gain a lot of bonuses, but I wouldn't call it a perfect solution by any means of as black & white as is implied IMHO.

Then again, it could work. Swapping 3 Purifier squads for this would give you 5 more bodies, Str5 bolters etc. and it would also leave extra points to spend on whatever you swap the vindicare for. I'd also say it's more original than the all-purifiers, which is something I value at least, being a Space Wolf player .
Ultimately, I don't doubt JY's ability and he knows his purifier list very well, which may not be the case if it was tweaked, although I am probably still in favour of such an idea, despite it's flaws which I feel were worth pointing out.

I'm still open to suggestions. As much as I like my list the way it is currently, I feel that a few more bodies may help. I may swap out some purifiers for S5-toting strikers. Honestly, I love the S5 stormbolters (but moreso on interceptors).

I'll just have to wait and see the new scenarios before tweaking my list, I guess.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think the switch of 3 squads of Purifier to 2 large GKSS isn't perfect mind, you lose out on a lot of bonuses (as well as gaining some of course), including:
- More units/scoring units.
- Another rhino/vehicle saturation.
- Cleansing Flame(!)
- Fearlessness
- Ability to shoot at more targets
- Cheaper Halberds

As I said, obviously you gain a lot of bonuses, but I wouldn't call it a perfect solution by any means of as black & white as is implied IMHO.

Then again, it could work. Swapping 3 Purifier squads for this would give you 5 more bodies, Str5 bolters etc. and it would also leave extra points to spend on whatever you swap the vindicare for. I'd also say it's more original than the all-purifiers, which is something I value at least, being a Space Wolf player .
Ultimately, I don't doubt JY's ability and he knows his purifier list very well, which may not be the case if it was tweaked, although I am probably still in favour of such an idea, despite it's flaws which I feel were worth pointing out.

How did we get to the point where switching out a modified force org using melee-specialized elites as bulk shooting troops for the basic troop choice of the freaking army get considered some how novel?

You folks spend too much time in the internet echo chamber. It's not all about purifers and psyflemen, kinda the whole point of what I was saying.

I'd say you spend too much time in your own echo chamber; this was the problem people raised with you in the initial thread, that you would state your view so abrasively, as if it were fact and without (appearing to) consider the other side of the argument. That's why I said what I did, because you were so strongly emphasising how Strike Squads would be better and (IMHO) appearing to gloss over their own flaws.

It's not all about Purifiers and Psyfleman, I never said it was and I never mentioned the Psyfleman, but it's quite possible that the best two weapons in the Grey Knight Codex are Psycannons and Psy-ammo Dreadnoughts.

When I said more original, I said it because A) IMHO two different types of unit is more original than 'spamming' one type and B) Crowe-purifier lists aren't exactly original in themselves.
However, you still stated Crowe was useless, which JY has shown otherwise, you described how purifier armies are weak and imbalanced, which JY has also shown otherwise. As I said before, this list has been play-tested and in 'ard boyz was just as successful as your own, with you both finishing 2nd (JY to AFAIK the top 'nid player in the US).

It's not that Purifiers are just assault units (or "melee-specialized elites as bulk shooting troops"), but they are flexible. Clearly, they can perform both. With two Psycannons and 3 Storm Bolters, they can pack a formidable punch, making them a suitable shooting-unit. However, with their own Stave/Hammer/Halberds/Swords and CF, they are also a formidable assault unit. As JY said, this makes it a water army, able to adapt to any situation and cope under almost any circumstance.

In fact, I agreed with you and said that replacing 3 purifier squads with 2 Strike Squads would be optimal IMHO. However, I also tried to point out the other side of the argument.

JY's Dreads have partially survived so far because the enemy also has 6 rhinos that they need to target also, against the Tau for example, as you said, more bodies would help, but then again, as JY said "as long as they don't fail morale and run away" and "Originally, he concentrated on my mobility. Take out those rhinos and then his infantry had targets to shoot at. After his broadsides and deathrains took them out, then he went after my dreads". If he had the Strike Squads, there would have been less rhinos to take out. Arguably, the 5 extra bodies could have helped. Helped as much as 2 extra psycannons, fearlessness and a rhino, I'm not so sure personally.

JY2 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think the switch of 3 squads of Purifier to 2 large GKSS isn't perfect mind, you lose out on a lot of bonuses (as well as gaining some of course), including:
- More units/scoring units.
- Another rhino/vehicle saturation.
- Cleansing Flame(!)
- Fearlessness
- Ability to shoot at more targets
- Cheaper Halberds

As I said, obviously you gain a lot of bonuses, but I wouldn't call it a perfect solution by any means of as black & white as is implied IMHO.

Then again, it could work. Swapping 3 Purifier squads for this would give you 5 more bodies, Str5 bolters etc. and it would also leave extra points to spend on whatever you swap the vindicare for. I'd also say it's more original than the all-purifiers, which is something I value at least, being a Space Wolf player .
Ultimately, I don't doubt JY's ability and he knows his purifier list very well, which may not be the case if it was tweaked, although I am probably still in favour of such an idea, despite it's flaws which I feel were worth pointing out.

I'm still open to suggestions. As much as I like my list the way it is currently, I feel that a few more bodies may help. I may swap out some purifiers for S5-toting strikers. Honestly, I love the S5 stormbolters (but moreso on interceptors).

I was ultimately saying that I do feel replacing 3 Purifer squads with 2 GKSS would be an improvement, but I did feel it was worth pointing out the flaws of the idea too. It's not an easy decision and I wouldn't blame you if you did or didn't change it. I think your familiarity with the purifiers is a big bonus as a general, whilst as you said, the scenarios may be the deciding factor, but I do agree that changing 3 purifier squads for 2 strike squads would be better IMHO and would leave you with additional points to spend if/when you drop the Vindicare...

Just Dave wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think the switch of 3 squads of Purifier to 2 large GKSS isn't perfect mind, you lose out on a lot of bonuses (as well as gaining some of course), including:
- More units/scoring units.
- Another rhino/vehicle saturation.
- Cleansing Flame(!)
- Fearlessness
- Ability to shoot at more targets
- Cheaper Halberds

As I said, obviously you gain a lot of bonuses, but I wouldn't call it a perfect solution by any means of as black & white as is implied IMHO.

Then again, it could work. Swapping 3 Purifier squads for this would give you 5 more bodies, Str5 bolters etc. and it would also leave extra points to spend on whatever you swap the vindicare for. I'd also say it's more original than the all-purifiers, which is something I value at least, being a Space Wolf player .
Ultimately, I don't doubt JY's ability and he knows his purifier list very well, which may not be the case if it was tweaked, although I am probably still in favour of such an idea, despite it's flaws which I feel were worth pointing out.

How did we get to the point where switching out a modified force org using melee-specialized elites as bulk shooting troops for the basic troop choice of the freaking army get considered some how novel?

You folks spend too much time in the internet echo chamber. It's not all about purifers and psyflemen, kinda the whole point of what I was saying.

I'd say you spend too much time in your own echo chamber; this was the problem people raised with you in the initial thread, that you would state your view so abrasively, as if it were fact and without (appearing to) consider the other side of the argument. That's why I said what I did, because you were so strongly emphasising how Strike Squads would be better and (IMHO) appearing to gloss over their own flaws.

It's not all about Purifiers and Psyfleman, I never said it was and I never mentioned the Psyfleman, but it's quite possible that the best two weapons in the Grey Knight Codex are Psycannons and Psy-ammo Dreadnoughts.

When I said more original, I said it because A) IMHO two different types of unit is more original than 'spamming' one type and B) Crowe-purifier lists aren't exactly original in themselves.
However, you still stated Crowe was useless, which JY has shown otherwise, you described how purifier armies are weak and imbalanced, which JY has also shown otherwise. As I said before, this list has been play-tested and in 'ard boyz was just as successful as your own, with you both finishing 2nd (JY to AFAIK the top 'nid player in the US).

It's not that Purifiers are just assault units (or "melee-specialized elites as bulk shooting troops"), but they are flexible. Clearly, they can perform both. With two Psycannons and 3 Storm Bolters, they can pack a formidable punch, making them a suitable shooting-unit. However, with their own Stave/Hammer/Halberds/Swords and CF, they are also a formidable assault unit. As JY said, this makes it a water army, able to adapt to any situation and cope under almost any circumstance.

In fact, I agreed with you and said that replacing 3 purifier squads with 2 Strike Squads would be optimal IMHO. However, I also tried to point out the other side of the argument.

JY's Dreads have partially survived so far because the enemy also has 6 rhinos that they need to target also, against the Tau for example, as you said, more bodies would help, but then again, as JY said "as long as they don't fail morale and run away" and "Originally, he concentrated on my mobility. Take out those rhinos and then his infantry had targets to shoot at. After his broadsides and deathrains took them out, then he went after my dreads". If he had the Strike Squads, there would have been less rhinos to take out. Arguably, the 5 extra bodies could have helped. Helped as much as 2 extra psycannons, fearlessness and a rhino, I'm not so sure personally.

We're not talking about exchanging 3 purifiers for 2 GKSS, we're talking about exchanging 4 for 3. I wasn't going to nitpick but then you repeated it like 5 times.

That would be taking 20 models, and converting them into 30, so 50% more bodies. You get 1 less rhino, one, and 2 less psycannons. But you also get 12 more storm bolters, and critically, those bolters are Str 5. Against MEQs, the purifiers (I'm assuming always moving) gets you 5.57 wounds, while the GKSS provides you 8.877. (i've disregarded rending, too small a differences figuring cover, not worth calculating) But that's not accounting for the fact that the Str 5 stormbolters can stun rhinos and destroy DE raiders. (Or chimeras from the side)

Now, as the list I listed, that's not suggesting that you not bring any purifiers. I think the purifiers are great. But they should be the spice, not the meat of the army.

Now you make noises about Purifiers being so good at everything, yadda yadda, and how it obviously worked for him in the tournament, I can only think about how having an equivalent army that where the troops were like 60% GKSS would have done way better.

My point is that when get to where someone like you sees someone suggest, with a straight face, to use the basic troop of the army as the foundation of the army, and you go "wow, that's new, what a concept!" I get the feeling either everyone but me is taking crazy pills, or I am.

Again, I'm not going to continue this debate, we disagree and I haven't heard a convincing argument otherwise and you're not changing your perspective so theres no point continuing this.

I'll conclude by summarising my opinion in that 15 Purifiers and 20 Strikers would be better than 10 Purifiers and 30 Strikers in this case, as a result of the fearlessness, extra armour saturation, cleansing flame, psycannons (and hammers/staves/halberds) and jy2's experience with purifiers, despite the additional Psybolt ammo and bodies.

I would typically agree that being the spice, not the core, but apparently it can work the otherwise here and Purifiers are still outnumbered.

Finally, I stated my point on originality - rather than "wow, that's new, what a concept" as you so tactfully exaggerated - as special character-based builds are so common with Grey Knights and 2 unit types being more 'original' than only one.

Again however, I'm just summarising my opinion as I don't see any point to continuing this 'discussion'.

15 and 20, vs 10 and 30?

Gee, guy, I'm glad you don't want to debate anymore, because you were apparently interested in arguing about not very much.

Wow, it appears a large debate has spilled over into this thread.

IMO, GKSS and Purfiers both have their merits, and will ultimately determine the final list build.

Purifiers using cleansing flame is wonderful against horde and can spam Psycannons, resulting in MSU. They are also fearless, which is can be good or bad depending on the situation. With 2 attacks a pop, they'll inflict good number of wounds, even at a small squad level. It's only 4 additional points more to a GKSS marine. Unfortunately, Purifiers are too expensive to be fielded in bulk, which is why majority of players who fields Purfiers buys dedicated transports for additional level of protection and mobility.

GKSS are cheap, allowing them to be fielded in larger numbers. This mitigates Grey Knights adherent weakness from being a small-elite MEQ army to a medium-size well equipped one. This also allows them to be effective as foot-sloggers thanks to Psybolt ammunition upgrade and immense volume of storm bolters and psycannons at 24". A full 10 man GKSS on foot seldom needs a Rhino for additional protection. It's a terrible waste of firepower, having them spend a couple turns inside a transport with 2 fire points.

Compared to Purifiers, GKSS doesn't perform well as an MSU army. They don't have additional attacks and are limited to 1 Psycannon for every 5 models in the unit. They also won't last long in assault against other MEQ, which have more volume of attacks (BA Mech Assault Marines and SW Grey Hunters). Against horde, GKSS have more dakka, but it's nothing compared to Cleansing Flame, which scales with number of models in the opposing horde unit.

On the other hand, Purifiers are easier to neutralize due to their small squad size, just so long as their transports are neutralized. And once in assault, if Purifiers loses combat, they need to take additional saves from being fearless. However, this seldom happens because of Cleansing Flame and other upgrades that increases initiative, which denies a few return blows.

In the end, it really depends which unit Purifiers or GKSS are facing and the overall GK army composition. IMO, Purifiers are better for all-take comers, being equipped to deal horde and having Psycannons against heavy mech lists. Plus, Crowe is a beast if used properly.

Before responding to some of the posts here, let me finish responding to the other post in this thread first.

Part III -

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Purifiers vs Ard Boyz 3: Draigo-Stormraven http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/388321.page

So, I like the idea behind Stormraven-based list. Some interesting things here, good concept, kinda mis-constructed in the execution, both in the final list and how it was used. I get the feeling he hand't had a huge amount of practice with it (which is hard to get with a Ard Boyz list). It's kinda overpowering, so even unpracticed, will smash some folks, but can splat a bit against others. That's what happened with you.

He actually did get some practice with it and was on a 4 or 5 game winning streak going into the Ard Boyz with this build (until he went up against Janthkin and then me in the tournament). I believe with this list, he actually beat Gus' Tau in a practice game for the very first time.

Actually, the list went splat, and he was still fighting you to a draw. The only reason it wasn't a draw was that he was dumb and, once again, let Crowe get into CC with his big expensive Draigo, which was worth double pts, and they mutually annihilated. Can you tell me why people keep on letting you do that to them? I mean, bravo on pulling it off, but it shouldn't be so easy, he's not so hard to shoot down. Are they unaware of that power? Are you like some super ninja in getting him into combat? It's almost enough to convince me that Crowe is worth his pts, except well, you could do the exact same thing with a 100 pt BroChamp.

Actually, against his army and most assault armies, it's quite easy. They need to come to me. I don't need to go towards them. I can play Crowe aggressively and go after him, or I can just wait for him to assault me and then counter-charge with Crowe. Either ways, Crowe will see action. The only time he may not see action is when I play against an army that doesn't want to engage me up close (Tau, IG, shooty-MSU) and even against some of these builds (Reecius' Bjorn long fang-wolves, SabrX's 9-broadside Tau), Crowe was able to make it into combat.

Part of the reason is because most people just don't see him as a threat, at least not initially and not when I've got my dreads and purifiers. Why waste your firepower on him when there are more pressing threats? It's the same with my Swarmlord tyranids. Everyone knows that the Swarmlord is super-nasty in combat. However, whenever I play against an experienced player, they always ignore Swarmie initially, opting to try to take out my hive guards and tervigons first. Only the newer, less experienced players will try to take out the Swarmlord initially.

The Bro-champ is equally effective against uber-enemy units, but without Cleansing Flame, they just cannot take out hordes. Also, in a MSU build, the Bro-champ's ability to let the squad re-roll hits is just not as meaningful on 5-man min squads as it would be on a more assaulty unit. Don't get me wrong, the Bro-champ is a good HQ choice, but he just has to be in the right list to be effective. This just doesn't happen to be that type of list.

Main comments:

1) Neat as the 3 Stormraven's are, it's probably better to have one of them be a Land Raider. Just in case, Y'know, some body was crazy and took 5 freaking psyflemen, and they had nothing better to do.

That's an interesting suggestion. You wouldn't have to worry about missile/psybolt-spam, just dark lance/melta-spam.

2) Who won the roll for initiative? I know he went first, but was that his choice? I would have been fighting to go second, here. Had you gone first, when he came screaming on, he could've hurt some dreadnoughts. He would have been lucky to kill even 1, but he might've, might have stunned something, might have blown off an arm, anything to delay some of the pain.

I think he did and decided to go first.

3) I like his gundam /winged DK conversions. But why, oh why, didn't those have the Teleporter packs? That would have been much better. He could have either come one normally, running to nearly keep up with the SRs, or shunted, to be right there, guaranteed, end of his turn 1. That's pressure. You're gonna be thinking a lot harder about dedicating all fire at the SRs with those guys in your face. Or he could have Deep struck as he did, and just bee much more mobile. Probably would have shunted, myself.

Probably because of the cost. He wanted more threats in terms of quantity. Each teleporter would cost him a soladin + extra. Besides, they were teleporting in at +2 on their reserve rolls and saw action right away.

4) I kinda feel a few assaulty dreads in the SRs might have served well here, would probably have to replace some DK for that. Might be too many eggs in one basket.

I actually like that idea. Get 1 assault vendread. The reason is that without the librarian, Reinforced Aegis would have came in real handy.

5) He makes the same mistake you do, and takes too many psycannons in his purifiers. Why put 4 psycannons in a squad that is inherently meant to only be shooting 1 round before charging out of a SR? Could have saved himself 20 pts, hit harder. He only gets to really use those 4 psycannons when things go wrong. Backup plans are good, but don't plan to fail.

Overall, I don't agree, but for his assault purifier build, I do. I would've kit them out with only 2 psycannons and more halberds instead. The difference between his purifiers and mine is that mine is kitted out more for shooting. Assault is secondary to them and only done when I have to. His should be kitted out more towards an assault build.

6) I hate that inquisitor build, especially in this list. Should have used a Xenos inquisitor with crazy nades. He's not even taking a henchman squad? He's paying 100+ pts for one BS 4 psycannon.

Agreed.

7) I'm assuming the teleport homer in the purgations squad is a typo? Otherwise, I like the 4 flamer thing.

Nope. No typo. Quad-flamer purgations are super-cool, but they are niche unit.

Anyway, again, you won this one because you had a ton of psyflemen, and he had a very juicy target for all that. And you really won it because he let Draigo get sucked into the warp, which there wasn't really a good reason to let happen.

Honestly, I feel real bad for triple-stormraven builds against my army. It's just so easy for my army to destroy 3 AV12 vehicles, even with cover. That's why IMO they are not a balanced all-comer's build. They'll always have problems against shooty MSU spam-builds.


--------------------------------------------------


And this was Bobby's (Grey Therion) reply:

Grey Therion wrote:

...The only reason it wasn't a draw was that he was dumb and...

You certainly know how to be friendly with people. Thank you for rating my intelligence level based on a single battle report! Other than that I have learned my lesson, bubble wrap your commander for 1 turn if facing Crowe.

1) Neat as the 3 Stormraven's are, it's probably better to have one of them be a Land Raider.

100% agree. I played Daemonhunters for over a year and I simply wanted to take a break from using Land Raiders for a while.

2) Who won the roll for initiative? I know he went first, but was that his choice? I would have been fighting to go second, here. Had you gone first, when he came screaming on, he could've hurt some dreadnoughts. He would have been lucky to kill even 1, but he might've, might have stunned something, might have blown off an arm, anything to delay some of the pain.

100% agree. I just lost with this list for the first time just 5 minutes prior to starting the game against Crowe. I was really upset and not thinking properly. Also, in our venue Mission 3 was played without night fighting on turn 1

3) But why, oh why, didn't those have the Teleporter packs?

I played 20+ games with 240 point Dreadknights and it occurred to me to try out the 130 stock version for a few games. The first 7 games it worked PERFECTLY but then game 7&8... not so good. Still, its a very expensive upgrade and it should not be assumed that EVERY Dreadknight always has to have a personal teleporter. If you look at the report more closely, on Turn 2 to 5 the Dreadknights are fighting non-stop; they are not walking around aimlessly trying to find a target.

4) I kinda feel a few assaulty dreads in the SRs might have served well here, would probably have to replace some DK for that. Might be too many eggs in one basket.

A single venerable dreadnought with a BS5 Multi Melta and reinforced Aegias would have done miracles! It was my fault for not including one.

5) He makes the same mistake you do, and takes too many psycannons in his purifiers.

Agreed. My best purifier builds have been with no or reduced psycannons. It looks on paper like you get a psy-cannon for 10 points but you loose so much in the process!

6) I know exactly where you are coming from as I have now used both for 8+ games. Xenos is better.

7) I'm assuming the teleport homer in the purgations squad is a typo? Otherwise, I like the 4 flamer thing.

No it is not a typo, please read your codex. Purgation get the cheapest teleport homer in the army. The 4 Incinerators is a good concept, they have killed A LOT, but its not needed in a GK army and they will be dropped.

And finally, one of Sir_Prometheus' response to Bobby:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Grey Therion wrote:

5) He makes the same mistake you do, and takes too many psycannons in his purifiers.

Agreed. My best purifier builds have been with no or reduced psycannons. It looks on paper like you get a psy-cannon for 10 points but you loose so much in the process!

This, here, is the crux of my entire argument against jy2's Crowe lists. It's partly you don't have enough albative wounds per psycannon, but also that you're reducing CC capacity on a CC unit. In any case, what's true for him is double true for you, sicne you're charging from a transport.

That really depends on your build. Keep in mind that my purifiers, while they can fight in assault, is not really a dedicated CC unit. Rather, they are a shooty, counter-assault unit. If I don't have to fight in assault, that would be fine with me as long as I can hang with you in shooting. If I can't, then I will charge the opponent.

I think there are two differing approaches here, talking now in terms of basic approach rather than specific units.

Sir Prometheus optimises his units of all types for certain roles. If all goes well then they perform exactly the role for which they are assigned and do very well. the list then becomes greater than the sum of its parts. In my view the danger with this approcah is it caters for neither bad luck nor the skill of the enemy. Prometheus aims to be a better general than his foe and has no truck with the foibles of Lady Luck. This is an essentially positive and optimistic approach and is commendable for that.

jv2 of course does have dedicated units but all his infantry are more or less the same and so are his supporting units (yes the Strike Squad and Assassin if fielded are different but the meat of the army is two sorts of units). This list is based on redundancy and, to my mind, allows for both bad luck and makes it harder to be out manoeuvered or out-generalled. It's an essentially cautious and pessimistic approach (to list building, not to how it's played on the table).

My own view is that jv2's approach is sounder because every infantry unit has versatility as all are of equal threat to the enemy. Prometheus risks his shooting Strikes being chopped up in assault (where a Purifier unit might survive or so damage the enemy unit as to negate it as a threat) and his small number of purifiers being negated by fire. jv2 has a wider range of options with each unit. Prometheus has a narrow range with each optimised unit, if they're caught out of position then their potential greater effectiveness will be not merely negated but reversed.

I think that's why there's a sort of 'never the twain shall meet' edge to this argument. It's not that Prometheus or jv2 are correct, it's that their equally valid philosophies are opposed to one another. If jv2 mixes up his army, it won't actually be more effective, it will just mean he has to play it differently.

As an aside, I don't think the worth of either list can be measured in a straight play off. GK vs GK is not really the issue. it's how well each list will do against good lists from other armies. They'd really want to each play double-headers against the same good players with good lists fielding Imperial Weaklings, the sado-masochist sort of Space Fairies, Werewolf-wannabe Marines and ideally MSU mech Marines, Orks, Tau and Tyranids too. Sadly that seems unlikely, but if ever I become a multi-millionaire (surely merely a matter of time), I will sponsor a specific competition for that purpose...

Artemo wrote:I think there are two differing approaches here, talking now in terms of basic approach rather than specific units.

Sir Prometheus optimises his units of all types for certain roles. If all goes well then they perform exactly the role for which they are assigned and do very well. the list then becomes greater than the sum of its parts. In my view the danger with this approcah is it caters for neither bad luck nor the skill of the enemy. Prometheus aims to be a better general than his foe and has no truck with the foibles of Lady Luck. This is an essentially positive and optimistic approach and is commendable for that.

jv2 of course does have dedicated units but all his infantry are more or less the same and so are his supporting units (yes the Strike Squad and Assassin if fielded are different but the meat of the army is two sorts of units). This list is based on redundancy and, to my mind, allows for both bad luck and makes it harder to be out manoeuvered or out-generalled. It's an essentially cautious and pessimistic approach (to list building, not to how it's played on the table).

My own view is that jv2's approach is sounder because every infantry unit has versatility as all are of equal threat to the enemy. Prometheus risks his shooting Strikes being chopped up in assault (where a Purifier unit might survive or so damage the enemy unit as to negate it as a threat) and his small number of purifiers being negated by fire. jv2 has a wider range of options with each unit. Prometheus has a narrow range with each optimised unit, if they're caught out of position then their potential greater effectiveness will be not merely negated but reversed.

I think that's why there's a sort of 'never the twain shall meet' edge to this argument. It's not that Prometheus or jv2 are correct, it's that their equally valid philosophies are opposed to one another. If jv2 mixes up his army, it won't actually be more effective, it will just mean he has to play it differently.

As an aside, I don't think the worth of either list can be measured in a straight play off. GK vs GK is not really the issue. it's how well each list will do against good lists from other armies. They'd really want to each play double-headers against the same good players with good lists fielding Imperial Weaklings, the sado-masochist sort of Space Fairies, Werewolf-wannabe Marines and ideally MSU mech Marines, Orks, Tau and Tyranids too. Sadly that seems unlikely, but if ever I become a multi-millionaire (surely merely a matter of time), I will sponsor a specific competition for that purpose...

Well, hold-on, before you start saying I have super specialized and lack redundancy. My ard Boyz list is here:http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/i-came-in-2nd-in-the-40k-ard-boyz/ (Please note I large consider the Godhammer LR a mistake...will be changing it out for a LRC, which is much more standard in my lists)

Most units in this list have a dual purpose:

* Most Crucially, the The Draigo/Paladin combo is both a shooting platform, a forward-scoring rock unit, and a beast in close combat. 8 MC'd psycannon shots is really heavy firepower. The unit almost never is killed off, despite how hard people try. And of course, Draigo with supporting paladins and banner will kill just about any other unit in the game it comes into contact with.

* The Ven Dread is both a close range fire platform, and a nasty assaulter. Usually is scoring when objectives are in play.

*The purifiers are mostly a CC unit, but certainly have ranged capability with 2 psycannons and all the stormbolters. If things go to pot (like their LR is shot out from under them) they certainly are going to spend a lot of time shooting.

*Liekwise, a 10 man GKSS is a perfectly capable CC unit, if it has to be. They're not going to beat down orks, pt for pt, but they'll certainly do just fine versus versus many varieties of MEQ, and even fairly high pt targets like MCs and (non-SH) termies. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to shoot, and then assault, something like a big BT crusader squad or Khorne Bezerkers. It's going to win just fine against Jy2's 5 man purifier squads.

*both LRs and the SR are fundamentally fulfilling similar delivery and fire-support roles. If any one of them goes down (and the SR usually does, it depends upon how close to the enemy it dies) the others can take up the load.

The only unit that is really single-role is the one psyfleman. Almost all units are dual role, but slanted in different directions and against different targets. None are super tightly focused. The goal of the list is to provide varied options and methods of attack and engaging the enemy, not super-specialized like to might see in an eldar army.

jy2 wrote:
Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Halberds, 1x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Can you give us an army list with the points break down sometime in the near future? Because I just did the math and this list does not seem to add up to anywhere NEAR 2500 points...

No it's 2.5k...Did the maths myself (roughly).

Strikers, purifiers....it's all good. After the Prelim's, I'm finding that some extra bodies would've helped possibly in all 3 matches. Thus, I'm going to mix it up a little for the Semi's. One thing's for sure, the vindicare is most likely going to go. What's my new list going to look like? Well, it's still early. Need to test out a few games and then I will probably post it up in my Ard Boyz Semi-finals battle report thread. Again, I'm going to let you, the readers, decide which list I'll be taking.

Kentucky-Irregulars wrote:
Can you give us an army list with the points break down sometime in the near future? Because I just did the math and this list does not seem to add up to anywhere NEAR 2500 points...

Sure. Forum policy prohibits the itemizing of individual unit/wargear costs due to copyright reasons, but I can post the totals of each unit with upgrades/wargear.


Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 195
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 195
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 195
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 195
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 195
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 215
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 215
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights - 215

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Swords, 1x MC-Hammer, 1x Warding Stave - 180

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135

TOTAL - 2500

jy2 wrote:Strikers, purifiers....it's all good. After the Prelim's, I'm finding that some extra bodies would've helped possibly in all 3 matches. Thus, I'm going to mix it up a little for the Semi's. One thing's for sure, the vindicare is most likely going to go. What's my new list going to look like? Well, it's still early. Need to test out a few games and then I will probably post it up in my Ard Boyz Semi-finals battle report thread. Again, I'm going to let you, the readers, decide which list I'll be taking.

Kentucky-Irregulars wrote:
Can you give us an army list with the points break down sometime in the near future? Because I just did the math and this list does not seem to add up to anywhere NEAR 2500 points...

Sure. Forum policy prohibits the itemizing of individual unit/wargear costs due to copyright reasons, but I can post the totals of each unit with upgrades/wargear.

My bad, clerical error on my part... I got 2.5k when I went back and did it again.