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Sorry, am still at work so I don't get much time on responses: please don't do stacking quotes, on such thin matters O_o

Anyway: There is no case at all that we needed inquisitorial units, Inquisitors brought nothing to us that was not out matched by our core units and faith in 4th edition. Only the inquisitorial stormtroopers were ever taken, and that was to limit points spent in troops; which meant you were severly underutilizing the Heavy Flamer + Melta roofhatch 12 inch rhino move. The witch hunter units were all under achievers. Using allies is a different case mind you, but inquisitorial? No point; get more faith, get more effective. The only inquisitorial unit that brings something better is the Deamon Hunter one.

And I wasn't contradicting you on the repentia, just telling you what I tried ;3


Edit: substantive responses to subsequent posts/previous post edits later, but just as a general thing; taking death cultists in 4th edition, and as in, AS MANY AS POSSIBLE, was quite funny, because they were individual units that could use up an entire unit's shooting. I like to try everything out before I form opinions, and I am certainly guided by the experience of others even after using my own evidence.

Pure Sisters > WH

Edit: On the sistah list, I can never agree with canoness ;3 just too many points for too little, but it does net you +1 scoring unit. I almost expected to see one of the rets packing heavy flamers ;D

On the second list; That's delicious. If you're on the cusp of points, I'd sacrifice a henchmen in Ky's group, given he is balls (probably a crusader, he gets less attacks out of it really) to get MM's on the other troop units; the double range means they harass nicely.

While we are talking about the new Sisters rules, can anybody think of a use for Ecclesiarchal Preachers (not Confessors). I've been trying to make positive use of most of the units in the codex despite my generally negative opinion of it in general. For the life of me I can't figure a good way to make use of their potential. I wish they were a unit upgrade like before. Why are these guys 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest, who gets +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1T, and +2 Leadership and come with power armor and give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge in a 6” bubble for the difference?

I guess I could insert one in a horde of 20 battle sisters and give it an extra gun for some more points or maybe an extra power sword or melta-bomb, but being a fragile IC I'm not sure what its goign to add for the points. I can accomplish more in CC for less with a 2nd Battle Conclave I think. Though I suppose having a large unit of 21 bolters could be effective. Anybody else have any other ideas?

Ecclesiarchal preachers can be used to make Repentia hilarious.

In the 2500 list, I was thinking of using one with the second Battle Conclave and using Kyrinov as a home base force multiplier. (Why yes, all of my battle sisters are fearless and sitting on my objective.)

pretre wrote:Ecclesiarchal preachers can be used to make Repentia hilarious.

In the 2500 list, I was thinking of using one with the second Battle Conclave and using Kyrinov as a home base force multiplier. (Why yes, all of my battle sisters are fearless and sitting on my objective.)

Won't having the Preacher affect their ability to be Fleet? Or should I not care since I can hopefully get them into a Rhino?

They will lose Fleet, but I generally have them transport jack anyways.

I don't play Sisters but the two people in my area who did are no longer using theirs. Guess this was one army that needed Matt Ward to write for them. :/

Yay, pithy Matt Ward one-liners!

pretre wrote:Yay, pithy Matt Ward one-liners!

Mat does write good rules for 40K in my opinion. Space Marines, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights are all solid codices. Maybe I am alone in that, but I've been pleased with their performance when I run them.

No, I'm with you. People just like to jab at him whenever they can. It is silly.

andrewm9 wrote:Why are these guys 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest, who gets +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1T, and +2 Leadership and come with power armor and give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge in a 6” bubble for the difference?

Because direct points comparisons between units in different armies is not how this game is built.

andrewm9 wrote:Why are these guys 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest, who gets +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1T, and +2 Leadership and come with power armor and give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge in a 6” bubble for the difference?

Consistency. See: Canoness vs Marine Captain.

Nah, DarknessEternal has a point. But still ... ¬_¬

DarknessEternal wrote:Because direct points comparisons between units in different armies is not how this game is built.

TRUTH!

Seriously, stop comparing units between codexes in a vaccuum.

I somewhat disagree, because those 3 codicies wrote there have a noticeable power creep, and when Daemons came out for fantasy it actually killed my local club's fantasy scene, which was a shame.

Obviously as a Sister player I had a particular distaste for the fluff in GKs ;3

Also, Ward did co-write the sisters dex.

Please, please please, don't start the Ward crap in this thread. Go start a new thread, but don't infect this one. We were getting along so well.

No need to cause a scene petre; you'll note it was your non-contributory comment regarding pithy one-liners that started the concentration on the subject of Ward.

I feel it is important though, for the chap who did initially bring up Ward, whether that be positive or negative, to know that Matt Ward did in fact co-write the codex. Which is entirely on subject, because we're talking about our opinion on the new rules~

Spiku wrote:No need to cause a scene petre; you'll note it was your non-contributory comment regarding pithy one-liners that started the concentration on the subject of Ward.

I feel it is important though, for the chap who did initially bring up Ward, whether that be positive or negative, to know that Matt Ward did in fact co-write the codex. Which is entirely on subject, because we're talking about our opinion on the new rules~

Unless he has a serious hate for Sisters, I fail to see his mark on this codex whatsoever. I know he is credited, but I wonder what the heck he wrote.

@andrewm9: I'm guessing the fluff pieces. The division of labor looks to have fallen out that way. MW wrote the fluff and RC wrote the crunch.

Also, there's an R in my name, Spiku. If you're going to rip on me, at least spell my name right.

pretre wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Because direct points comparisons between units in different armies is not how this game is built.

TRUTH!

Seriously, stop comparing units between codexes in a vaccuum.

How can you call it a vacuum? The game is designed with points for a reason. The rulebook even tells us that things are point costed for this very reason. If its based on relative value, Sanguinary Priests are certainly more valuable to Blood Angels than a Preacher is to Sisters so shouldn't he cost more by that logic.

Points: Warhammer 40,000 uses a system of points values that allow players to fight evenly matched battles. Each model is given a points costs that reflects its value in the game. For example, a single Ork warrior costs 6 points, while a mighty Space Marine Land Raider tank costs 250 points.

The rulebook tells you that points costs reflect value in the game, not that that value is the same between armies. It is silent on that point. Are some things cheaper/more expensive in this codex than others? Yes. Is there probably a reason for that? Yes.

pretre wrote:@andrewm9: I'm guessing the fluff pieces.

So we have to thank him for making Praxedes look less awesome?

Y'know, I kinda agree about the Ward-bashing being taken to ridiculous levels (same as with Goto), but that guy is asking for it.

For example, why do Space Marines pay 5 pts for a BS4 Tactical Meltagun and Guard pay 10 for a Veteran MG? How about orders, additional costs of the unit, etc?

You can't just say 'OMG SM pay less for Meltaguns!!!!' you have to look at the whole picture.


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Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:@andrewm9: I'm guessing the fluff pieces.

So we have to thank him for making Praxedes look less awesome?

snip skipping htis part

Praxedes still takes down a HT single-handedly and was martyred. She just doesn't 'press the advantage'. It looked like a space issue to me (2 para in 2nd edition SoB, 1 Para in WD). I would expect less fluff in a smaller book.


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Sanctuary was also reduced to a single sentence for much the same reasons, I imagine.

pretre wrote:

Points: Warhammer 40,000 uses a system of points values that allow players to fight evenly matched battles. Each model is given a points costs that reflects its value in the game. For example, a single Ork warrior costs 6 points, while a mighty Space Marine Land Raider tank costs 250 points.

The rulebook tells you that points costs reflect value in the game, not that that value is the same between armies. It is silent on that point. Are some things cheaper/more expensive in this codex than others? Yes. Is there probably a reason for that? Yes.

So the Preacher is almost as valuable in game as a Sanguinary Priest? Really? Thats what I am asking. becuase it assuredly is not. By that logic the SP should cost more as he is more value in game or the preacher should cost less as he is of little real value to the army.

pretre wrote:Praxedes still takes down a HT single-handedly and was martyred. She just doesn't 'press the advantage'.

That's just it. The idea of Praxedes still being "out there" and leading her own personal crusade inside some Hive Fleet was just awesome. Of course I wouldn't have expected her to survive a single week, but simply seeing her go there led to a myth that used to inspire many Sisters and other faithful. This is the stuff of legends. Huge change between MIA and KIA here.

Now she's KIA. Why? Aren't we allowed to have a hero that smacks down a Tyrant and survives? Aren't we allowed to have cool legends? Is this something the Marines have a monopoly on or what?

I just don't get it. I want the author to explain this to me. "That's too cool for them" is the only reasoning that could have led to this change, and I dislike the idea of people with this attitude messing up our fluff. FFS, it's as if the author was like "hmmm there's still not enough martyrs in here" when looking at the SoB. For real?

andrewm9 wrote:So the Preacher is almost as valuable in game as a Sanguinary Priest? Really? Thats what I am asking. becuase it assuredly is not. By that logic the SP should cost more as he is more value in game or the preacher should cost less as he is of little real value to the army.

The points cost is predicated on the army that it is in. Read my example re: Meltaguns between guard and IG. Preacher is of value to an army with high numbers of PW attacks that want rerolls (EBC, Repentia) and units that want to add a PF Eviscerator without being Seraphim (Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions). He also has a built in invuln for bouncing AP wounds, if you are so inclined.

I'm not saying his costing is right, wrong or indifferent, but I'm saying that he fills a roll in the SoB army that the designers determined costs that many points. SP fill a different roll for their army that the designers decided costs X points. A SP in a SOB army would probably be less points, because FC is less cool if it only brings you to S4/I4, although a SP with DCA would be nice, so it might be higher, who knows. If BA didn't have the ability to put Powerfists into squads normally, you can bet their 'add a guy with powerfist + invulnerable save and preferred enemy' would be pretty spendy.


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Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:Praxedes still takes down a HT single-handedly and was martyred. She just doesn't 'press the advantage'.

That's just it. The idea of Praxedes still being "out there" and leading her own personal crusade inside some Hive Fleet was just awesome. Of course I wouldn't have expected her to survive a single week, but simply seeing her go there led to a myth that used to inspire many Sisters and other faithful. This is the stuff of legends. Huge change between MIA and KIA here.

I missed the fighting on sentence. I see where you are coming from.

I just don't get it. I want the author to explain this to me. "That's too cool for them" is the only reasoning that could have led to this change, and I dislike the idea of people with this attitude messing up our fluff. FFS, it's as if the author was like "hmmm there's still not enough martyrs in here" when looking at the SoB. For real?

I don't see this at all, but whatever. I think SoB players played with the Martyrdom rules too long because they have a tendency to do it to themselves.

Early days yet for me i've only got two games in so far both against GK. Won one lost one. Tabled in four turns for the win despite losing 15 sisters in turn2. Lost a kill point game by miles despite leaving only a Rhino, a librarian and one psycannon marine and having 3 untouched squads on the board but hey ho its all learning at this stage. I think some of the character has been lost but i think the army is a bit more rounded in that you may actually take certain units this time round.

Liking outflanking dominions I've tried the immo and rhino mounted versions (all melta) and they both have their plus points so i can see me using them a lot. Given the firepower they have they are quite good at distracting heavy hitters from your sisters squads.

Exorcists are still the default heavy choice for me though I'll be trying retributors with mm soon, I'm not sure i want to sacrifice the ability to hit targets across the board on the first turn.

Not tried repentia yet i'm not sure how to fit them over a battle conclave which most people seem to take by default I've been trying 4 crusader 4 dca, jacobus (praise be to him) and a canoness in a rhino which works pretty well. I can't seem to make the canoness fit well otherwise though I'll try her with celestians and see what happens. Personally i like to have a non special character to act as general but that's just me I'm a bit set in my ways.

So still got plenty of games to play to get a better picture especially when I play my more experienced mates but so far i'm in the not perfect but have potential camp.

Canoness is kind of wasted with a battle conclave. They're already I6 and have Preferred Enemy on the charge. I would just let her go and use Celestine or another Battle Conclave.

Glad to hear that things are going well for you though.

pretre wrote:Canoness is kind of wasted with a battle conclave. They're already I6 and have Preferred Enemy on the charge. I would just let her go and use Celestine or another Battle Conclave.

Glad to hear that things are going well for you though.

Yeah i agree she's not perfect in there but i like to have her in there to take some wounds on her 3+ or 4++ to keep the DCAs alive and put in a plasma pistol shot before charging. Also a melta bomb can be useful on occasion. Stubborn is useful with her leadership if you get a kicking in a round of combat, psykotrope grenades...shudder. But I take your point.

FYI, Uriah gives you stubborn already.

pretre wrote:FYI, Uriah gives you stubborn already.

He does as well missed that one completely ooops.

For what you're talking about, I'd save the points and throw in another DCA. Sure, you lose the PP/MB, but you have a 5++/FNP and plenty of 3++ in the unit already.

I miss my canoness, but not that much.