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As the OP asked, here are my thoughts on the new codex. I have had time to play with the new rules and I believe I have a handle on how they wiill work with me.

Like most anyone can see, there was a lot of redaction going on. Several units are no longer there and the original previous Witch Hunter codex was not exactly overflowing with options to begin with. In fact it was less than the original Chapter Approved rules the Sisters started with. On the up side, I liked my army to be as Faithful as possible and tried to keep it to Sisters only so most of what is gone are parts I seldom used.

First among the new units I take are my Repentia. I know everyone raves about the Battle Conclave and yes, they are deadly as sin, but I lthink the Sisters Repentia are still an under-rated unit choice. In more years than I care to admit, I have taken Repentia only a handful of times because each and every time they failed to cause a single casulty. Most times they were wiped out before even getting to swing. I can say with complete honesty I have taken them more since the white drawf codex than I ever had in the past. They have had a few good games, but in general they are kind of hit and miss. This should be telling about the quality of any codex the Adepta Sororatias have had ... being mediocre is a vast improvement from the old codex; at least it is for the Repentia.

If I were going to make a point about the Sisters of Battle it would be this: they are not Witch Hunters any more. This is a different army. Now once we can cope with that fact, maybe I can also point out that they are not Space Marines, either.

What I have come to like about the new codex is that being fluffy is not going to automatically cost you a game. There is nothing in the "utterly worthless" column like there was before. It is a mediocre set of limited rules pubished with copious typos and editorial errors in a rather off-handed way. But it is MY army. I can work with it. I can win with it. And most importantly, I can have fun with My Sisters. FOTM fanbois should look elsewhere.

Augustus wrote:

n0t_u wrote:I suppose it was then though I never had trouble following it. The new system seems slightly more convoluted, though in a different manner by introducing a variety of modifiers to replace the equal to or over/under and by removing an army wide pool of powers to assign different units their own powers. They still have the use conditions and you still need to keep track of the faith points, which empty out and get replenished each turn. It's not better I guess, just different...

I agree with you there. I think the worst part of it is it doesn't scale up or down with the army, its just points/turn, less useful in a 2500 point game than in a combat patrol, and that's just bad design.

I still can't believe it's not an actual hard copy codex, what happens next year for people who want to play/start the army?

They will do the same thing they did with BA and Catachans, once the back issues of WD run out they will put in on the web as a PDF

Augustus wrote:Rallying below half, with enemy in 6, with faith points is an incredible power in 5th, because you can save the troop choices even when they have been driven off of objectives, sisters never get 'herded' off board

You know troop choices can still do it, right?

Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.

Because that is an option when playing at events... Good call, BBA. Thanks for the sage advice.

For the rest of us who play in the really real world, we need to work with what we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarah Phim wrote:If I were going to make a point about the Sisters of Battle it would be this: they are not Witch Hunters any more. This is a different army. Now once we can cope with that fact, maybe I can also point out that they are not Space Marines, either.

What I have come to like about the new codex is that being fluffy is not going to automatically cost you a game. There is nothing in the "utterly worthless" column like there was before. It is a mediocre set of limited rules pubished with copious typos and editorial errors in a rather off-handed way. But it is MY army. I can work with it. I can win with it. And most importantly, I can have fun with My Sisters. FOTM fanbois should look elsewhere.

Well said, Sarah, well said. Welcome to Dakka Dakka!

That does seem the case, a new army.

OK, a PDF, well I guess. Sure makes them out to be second class citizens doesn't it? I don't think that's fair, but I have done many armies that were invaldiated so I know...

Also why give away foir free what you can sell? So strange.

Augustus wrote:
Also why give away foir free what you can sell?

Paper costs money. White Dwarf was already in the budget.

Not going to sell enough SoB codexes to make a profit without a substantial markup, which would only make people complain more.

Perhaps, we may never know...

Augustus wrote:That does seem the case, a new army.

OK, a PDF, well I guess. Sure makes them out to be second class citizens doesn't it? I don't think that's fair, but I have done many armies that were invaldiated so I know...

Also why give away foir free what you can sell? So strange.

Daemonhunters had only a PDF for a while, but then they... Oh... Right.

Maybe a PDF is a good thing, when you look at things like that.

pretre wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.

Because that is an option when playing at events... Good call, BBA. Thanks for the sage advice.

For the rest of us who play in the really real world, we need to work with what we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarah Phim wrote:If I were going to make a point about the Sisters of Battle it would be this: they are not Witch Hunters any more. This is a different army. Now once we can cope with that fact, maybe I can also point out that they are not Space Marines, either.

What I have come to like about the new codex is that being fluffy is not going to automatically cost you a game. There is nothing in the "utterly worthless" column like there was before. It is a mediocre set of limited rules pubished with copious typos and editorial errors in a rather off-handed way. But it is MY army. I can work with it. I can win with it. And most importantly, I can have fun with My Sisters. FOTM fanbois should look elsewhere.

Well said, Sarah, well said. Welcome to Dakka Dakka!

Well, no one said they were going to play only in tournaments. For casual play, I sure as hell would use the old rules.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
Well, no one said they were going to play only in tournaments. For casual play, I sure as hell would use the old rules.

This brings up a point. I have wanted to play a few games with WH vs SoB since I saw the first half of the new codex. Sadly, there are not any other Sisters players around here. I am curious as to how each would play against the other.

[ETA]
Everyone at my LGS told me I could use the C:WH if I wanted and wait for a real codex. I was tempted, too. My first reaction to the WD codex was more stunned disbelief than anything. Then i held out for thinking the wargear would make up for the changes. But there is no wargear. I was hurt. I thought they had intentionally tanked my army because I could not see any other reason for the changes. But I played the new rules anyway. I have not gone back to the old rules once. And I am starting to like how the new girls play. But you are right, if it is a casual game at home or at the LGS, I would not have any problem what so ever with letting some use the old codex. As you can see by the above, I would actually enjoy it if they did.

Awful, half-assed garbage.

Sources?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I quite like the new rules. I am actually starting Sisters after I finish my Tau and daemons.

I find that people who never played sisters, often feel that way. This is because they never had the 5 point stubborn, the 3++ saves, acts of faith during enemy turns, and I'm just repeating posts I've made all over the shop ;3

Whilst the old codex doesn't work well with 5th edition if you want to do something other than 11+ immolators, even with my old 4th edition set up I get far more wins/draws than with current edition WD codex as it basically scuppers us. No reason to play sister with WD dex if you can play ye olde codex.

Otherwise, play them as counts as BA

Spiku wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I quite like the new rules. I am actually starting Sisters after I finish my Tau and daemons.

I find that people who never played sisters, often feel that way. This is because they never had the 5 point stubborn, the 3++ saves, acts of faith during enemy turns, and I'm just repeating posts I've made all over the shop ;3

I find that people who never played sisters during Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd), Core Rulebook Sisters and Codex: Chapter Approved sisters, often feel that way. This is because they never had Feel No Pain faith acts, Redemptionists with 1 Eviscerator for every 5 models and Init 10 attacks. Or consequently because they don't remember when we had no faith (Core Rulebook) or just one table that you rolled at the start of the game. Sisters have always been a niche army with lackluster power, even during C:WH. That is part of the fun.

Whilst the old codex doesn't work well with 5th edition if you want to do something other than 11+ immolators, even with my old 4th edition set up I get far more wins/draws than with current edition WD codex as it basically scuppers us. No reason to play sister with WD dex if you can play ye olde codex.

I really would like to see some data on this rather than armchair analysis. My gut is that the WD codex will be just as competitive as C:WH, which is to say not terribly.

Otherwise, play them as counts as BA

Yuck.

pretre wrote:Or consequently because they don't remember when we had no faith (Core Rulebook) or just one table that you rolled at the start of the game.

Rites of Faith were a fun idea, very fluffy. Would've liked to see them in addition to "normal" AoF, though both should feel like unique mechanics in their own right of course.

But here's a blast from the past for ya - does anyone remember when Battle Sisters were T4?

Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:Or consequently because they don't remember when we had no faith (Core Rulebook) or just one table that you rolled at the start of the game.

Rites of Faith were a fun idea, very fluffy. Would've liked to see them in addition to "normal" AoF, though both should feel like unique mechanics in their own right of course.

But here's a blast from the past for ya - does anyone remember when Battle Sisters were T4?

I do and Sodies were only a nickel!

The old Sacred Rites were cool because they were pre-deploy, iirc, so influenced battle strategy and lasted the game. They were uncool because they were super random and mostly meh. Shooting twice and hatred could be pretty sweet.

D6 + Modifiers
1 - Nothing
2 - Fearless
3 - Frenzied
4 - +1 LD
5 - Hatred
6 - 4+ Psychic Save
7 - Autopass all psych and break tests
8 - Ignore target priority
9 - Fire twice in one shooting phase

Lynata wrote: - does anyone remember when Battle Sisters were T4?

Yes!
That was because anyone with power armor was T4. Just like anyone with a chainsword was S+1.

While tripping through memory lane, do you remember that flame weapon you could use in close combat before the combat actually started? I keep thinking Emmolation Grenades but that's not it.

not enough cleavage imo

Sarah Phim wrote:
While tripping through memory lane, do you remember that flame weapon you could use in close combat before the combat actually started? I keep thinking Emmolation Grenades but that's not it.

Are you thinking of Exterminators? Redemptionists could add them for like +3 pts each. They hit at I10 and you rolled one hit for every model of the enemy squad. The number of models in your squad determined what it took to hit them. If you had a full squad of Reds, you hit on a 2+, I think. It was nasty with divine guidance. Went something like:

20 Redemptionists, 5 Zealots with Eviscerators. All with Exterminators.

X attacks at Init 10 where X = the size of the enemy squad.
45 Normal Attacks on the Charge
15 Chainfist attacks on the Charge.

Oh and you could Divine Guide that whole mess too, so 6's ignored armor. Ahh, Codex Chapter Approved, how I miss thee.

I'm thinking Brazier of Divine Fire or something, though I'd have to dig up the book again.

Exterminators always sounded fun, too, though I sadly never managed to build up a force of Frateris Militia like I had plannet at some time. The idea of a huge wall of cheap fanatic meatshields to go before the advancing Sisters just sounded so grimdark and epic at the same time.

I think I tried them once in an online game via vassal, two groups of twenty fanatics each, though they got shot to fine red mist by Tau plasma within the first two rounds.

Lynata wrote:I'm thinking Brazier of Divine Fire or something, though I'd have to dig up the book again.

Exterminators always sounded fun, too, though I sadly never managed to build up a force of Frateris Militia like I had plannet at some time. The idea of a huge wall of cheap fanatic meatshields to go before the advancing Sisters just sounded so grimdark and epic at the same time.

I think I tried them once in an online game via vassal, two groups of twenty fanatics each, though they got shot to fine red mist by Tau plasma within the first two rounds.

Codex Chapter Approved had a FNP act, so most of the time the Redemptionists made it to the front lines.

pretre wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.

Because that is an option when playing at events... Good call, BBA. Thanks for the sage advice.

For the rest of us who play in the really real world, we need to work with what we have.

This gets bandied about quite a bit, and I'm sure you felt real tough when you wrote it, but realistically a very large portion of players (I hesitate to say majority, although I'd be willing to bet that's the case) rarely participate in any events, much less have them take up the bulk of their gaming time.

Omegus wrote:This gets bandied about quite a bit, and I'm sure you felt real tough when you wrote it, but realistically a very large portion of players (I hesitate to say majority, although I'd be willing to bet that's the case) rarely participate in any events, much less have them take up the bulk of their gaming time.

Oh, I definitely felt like an internet tough guy.

For those of us who talk to others and leave our mom's basement though, we do have to come to a common consensus on rules. This means using current codexes, 5th edition rules, etc.

Of course you can do whatever you want in your home.

I still don't understand all the whining about the allies rules. The Imperium has different departments for a reason, and if a bunch of Imperial Guard hit a daemon incursion, they would have called in the help of the Grey Knights.

What was the big deal about allies?

Allies were a conflicting set of rules across codecies.

If I have a codex that says I can have say ... Dark Angels as allies. Well, that's cool and all. But then the Dark Angels get some upgrades through a FAQ. Do the Dark Angles in my codex also get those upgrades or do I have to conform to the rules I have in my codex?

OK, so let's make this a little more flexable. My codex now says I can pick one troop choice from the Dark Angles and leavs all other info out of my codex. Now I need to buy another codex to play my army. Awe shucks. I have an easy US$1000 invested, whats another 30? But then in a few months the Dark Angels get a brand new, reworked codex. They can have terminators as troops regardless if Bilial is present (this is hypothetical, ya know -- it has not really happened ... yet). So now my codex has access terminators and the list was never designed to have that ability.

Anyway ... too many conflicting rules for the same unit across books and the possibility for changes in one codex to break another means it is better (easier) to do away with allies.

By that logic, then every rules edition should come with a full generation of codexes...

pretre wrote:
Oh, I definitely felt like an internet tough guy.

pretre wrote:
I really would like to see some data on this rather than armchair analysis. My gut is that the WD codex will be just as competitive as C:WH, which is to say not terribly.

I find this to commonly be the opinion of people who haven't played during Rogue Trader's first release, when Sisters policed the Space Marines and hunted down any that went rogue, with their silly nun habit headdress thingies. Back when I could level my skirmish team and have extendo-arms space marines with googly eyes!


Anywho, what more analysis can I provide then how my games go? I find it strange that within a few weeks of the WD codex I had played half a monkey and there are people who still haven't given it a run. Your gut doesn't change that a win to loss ratio with WD codex has been flatly lower than with WH; being affected by morale, not having get out of jail free faith and tarpitting deathstars is a considerable current tooth pull. I mean I would -never- have considered MM's outside of apoc with relentless until testing the current codex.

I found 2nd edition sisters more amusing than necron disable scarabs and 6 rapeflayers personally~ I have to admit it's a shame through my collection run that my banner bearer lost her fleur de lys. But then in those days I was arguing with people putting blu-tack on their orks so they didn't fall off the wagon and take wounds.

Spiku wrote:

pretre wrote:
I really would like to see some data on this rather than armchair analysis. My gut is that the WD codex will be just as competitive as C:WH, which is to say not terribly.

I find this to commonly be the opinion of people who haven't played during Rogue Trader's first release, when Sisters policed the Space Marines and hunted down any that went rogue, with their silly nun habit headdress thingies. Back when I could level my skirmish team and have extendo-arms space marines with googly eyes!


Anywho, what more analysis can I provide then how my games go? I find it strange that within a few weeks of the WD codex I had played half a monkey and there are people who still haven't given it a run. Your gut doesn't change that a win to loss ratio with WD codex has been flatly lower than with WH; being affected by morale, not having get out of jail free faith and tarpitting deathstars is a considerable current tooth pull. I mean I would -never- have considered MM's outside of apoc with relentless until testing the current codex.

I found 2nd edition sisters more amusing than necron disable scarabs and 6 rapeflayers personally~ I have to admit it's a shame through my collection run that my banner bearer lost her fleur de lys. But then in those days I was arguing with people putting blu-tack on their orks so they didn't fall off the wagon and take wounds.

Actually, in the game I finished just after the WD dex came out, I managed to butcher my opponent - playing Vanilla Marines - to the point of tabling her by turn 4 or so. This is in contrast to a more balanced gamestyle with the WH dex, which I'd generally get slaughtered in but end up winning because I'd keep my head on the objectives.

I started another few games with her using my Sisters that I never ended up finishing, because I got in the mood for more Daemons and Eldar stuff. It takes us a full weekend at the shortest to play a 1500 points standard game, and more often it'll be played over a full week. We're both fairly slow gamers and I can't stand standing for too long, so we play 1 turn at a time, which takes about an hour unless they're going really quick. This weekend, though, I'll probably play another game, and we'll see how it goes now that she knows what the Battle Conclave can do. Her Marines used to butcher most of my units in melee combat, so she was expecting the Battle Conclave to be a pushover for her Honor Guard (None of the Honor Guard got to make any melee attacks).