Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

bladedragon03 wrote:So I asked GW about the rule and yes it could still suck the Dredn. through even if it was not facing it because coming from GW the Dredn. has a 360 LOS.

hahahahaha. really late but still funny to me.

a) Dreadnaughts don't have a 360 LoS.
b) Please stop making things up and posting them

Yeah, besides asking GW about as rule is worth nothing in this forum.

rigeld2 wrote:a) Dreadnaughts don't have a 360 LoS.

A bit pedantic, since they effectively have it considering they can pivot to shoot at whatever they want.

Monster Rain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:a) Dreadnaughts don't have a 360 LoS.

A bit pedantic, since they effectively have it considering they can pivot to shoot at whatever they want.

True, not that's not the same thing.

Right, unlike non-walker vehicles they have permission to pivot in the shooting phase. You then draw LOS for shooting just like any other vehicle.

Monster Rain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:a) Dreadnaughts don't have a 360 LoS.

A bit pedantic, since they effectively have it considering they can pivot to shoot at whatever they want.

Except they dont, as they still have to pivot - they have a 45degree arc form each weapon.

Very important for chaos dreadnoughts...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:a) Dreadnaughts don't have a 360 LoS.

A bit pedantic, since they effectively have it considering they can pivot to shoot at whatever they want.

Except they dont, as they still have to pivot - they have a 45degree arc form each weapon.

Very important for chaos dreadnoughts...

As pedantic as this thread is, I'm going to have to say I agree with Nos for the first time ever. Dreadnought is the easy one, as a dreadnoughts LOS is clearly defined and important to it's shooting. Game wise, this one is going to come up in a 1 in a million situation.

1. You're not going to want to keep your dreadnoughts back army facing my army
2. If you're that close the monolith you either just assaulted it and are facing the portal, or about to, and again, do you really want to leave your rear armor exposed for a turn of shooting?

Where this really gets crazy, is when you take into account the thread on Rage and LOS. What is the arc of LOS of an infantry model? IF an infantry model has it's back to the monolith, can it draw LOS?

Fluff wise though not important I find it quite amusing - "Sarge, don't go towards the light!! Nooo!"

Nemesor Dave wrote:2. If you're that close the monolith you either just assaulted it and are facing the portal, or about to, and again, do you really want to leave your rear armor exposed for a turn of shooting?

Or the Monolith just arrived at the back of your (non-necron) army.

Yeah, Dreads facing away from a Monolith certainly cannot be pulled in. They follow vehicle LOS rules, with adjustments for being Walkers, and vehicles very specifically do not have 360 degree LOS.

Infantry I won't comment on here, since that argument is going on in the Rage thread currently.

When a walker is shooting it's weapons in the shooting phase it draws it's LOS from it's guns. But walkers are treated as infantry for measuring all ranges and distances unless it's shooting it's own weapons. So as the walker is not shooting it's own weapons you wouldn't have to draw LOS from it's guns as it is not shooting. You would draw it from the base just like infantry.

Except infantry draw LOS from their eyes, not their base.

ok well a fully functioning head that can move just like Infantry. If the pivot is added here then we would have a dredn. that could get sucked though the Monolith.

Also with infantry they don't have to be facing the target to be able to see them as shown on page 23 of the rule book.

Because it doesn't say that the space marines can't shoot at unit A because they can't see them. It just says they wouldn't have cover if they were to shoot at unit A. If I go by what you all are saying they shouldn't even be able to shoot at unit A. It should say can't be targeted because can't draw LOS. But it just states they wouldn't have cove from the space marines.

This pic shows that infantry have a 360 LOS without putting it in writing because other wise unit A and B would not even be able to be a target because the space marines wouldn't have LOS. But they do and can shoot at those units because they can draw LOS to them. Now you just combine this with the Dredn. since it is not shooting any of it's weapons it won't have to draw LOS from them. It will just drawing LOS just like infantry and would be able to see the monolith and get sucked in if it failed it's roll. Just like infantry.

Find me the "eyes" on a dreadnought. It doesnt have any. Its only way to determine LOS is through the guns. It does not have LOS as Infantry, it moves as Infantry, and shoots as infantry in terms of moving and facing, and fights like a combination of both, but your initial contention is that it is infantry for anything that isnt shooting is simply wrong.

Infantry dont have 360 LOS, which is why you have to turn them to face when shooting. Now, people dont do this, and assume this means infantry have 360 LOS (or construct dodgy RAW arguments to "prove" it) but that isnt important here

A dreadnought explicitly only has 45degree from each gun LOS. Thats it.

bladedragon03 wrote:ok well a fully functioning head that can move just like Infantry. If the pivot is added here then we would have a dredn. that could get sucked though the Monolith.

I do not understand this statement.

bladedragon03 wrote:Because it doesn't say that the space marines can't shoot at unit A because they can't see them. It just says they wouldn't have cover if they were to shoot at unit A. If I go by what you all are saying they shouldn't even be able to shoot at unit A. It should say can't be targeted because can't draw LOS. But it just states they wouldn't have cove from the space marines.

This pic shows that infantry have a 360 LOS without putting it in writing because other wise unit A and B would not even be able to be a target because the space marines wouldn't have LOS. But they do and can shoot at those units because they can draw LOS to them. Now you just combine this with the Dredn. since it is not shooting any of it's weapons just drawing LOS it would be able to see the monolith and get sucked in. Just like infantry.

Good catch on the implications of the diagram, but I don't think it's as solid of proof as you hope it might be. Read 'Turning and facing' on p11 BRB .

Personally, I would continue to attack along the lines of seeing through the back of their own heads. If you are being blocked by a strict but silly RAW argument, try to come up with an equally strict but silly RAW counter.

bladedragon, did you stop to think, that maybe, just maybe, they would pivot the models to face what they are shooting at, and decided that instead of printing 5 pictures, they would save space and print 1?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find me the "eyes" on a dreadnought. It doesnt have any. Its only way to determine LOS is through the guns. It does not have LOS as Infantry, it moves as Infantry, and shoots as infantry in terms of moving and facing, and fights like a combination of both, but your initial contention is that it is infantry for anything that isnt shooting is simply wrong.

You only measure from the guns if it is shooting it's guns. As it is not you would measure from it's head where the guy is driving the dreadn.

Yeah I forgot about the rule on page 11. Ok a walker pivots so that it's guns are aimed at the target. Well doing this would give him the LOS he would need. The pivoting does not count as moving. This would give them more then the 45 degree that would be needed. What's wrong with this?

The only way you have permission to draw Los from a dreadnaught is using its guns. So no, you don't use it's head.

rigeld2 wrote:The only way you have permission to draw Los from a dreadnaught is using its guns. So no, you don't use it's head.

QFT.

Leave the Infantry LOS rules aside entirely. They don't matter. Walkers do not follow those rules; they follow their own rules. The only time ANYONE explicitly has permission to draw LOS is when they're shooting; in order for the game to work at all, you have to assume that anything which requires you to draw LOS has given you permission to do so, even though you aren't shooting. But that doesn't change which rules you use.

Dreadnoughts check LOS from their guns, with a 45-degree arc. They don't draw LOS from their head, their base, or anything else, and they cannot see in any other direction.

The monolith gives it permission to draw LOS and thus it would pivot and draw LOS from it's guns. giving it what it needs.

bladedragon03 wrote:The monolith gives it permission to draw LOS and thus it would pivot and draw LOS from it's guns. giving it what it needs.

NO.

The monolith asks if you are in LOS of the monolith. This is not "are you shooting at the monolith, and would thus pivot to face it?" this is "are you in LOS of the monolth: - which you do by tracing a LOS along the gun barrels with a 45 degree total arc. You do not pivot because you are not shooting the monolith. You are tracing LOS. One is not the same as the other.

bladedragon03 wrote:The monolith gives it permission to draw LOS and thus it would pivot and draw LOS from it's guns. giving it what it needs.

You have no permission to pivot in your opponent's turn, which is when the Portal of Exile will be used.