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Given a 6" radius circle can hold around 144 models, this doesnt seem too unlikely

NecronLord3 wrote:

phantommaster wrote:"The Portal of Exile is treated as a shooting attack" and is therefore done in the shooting phase. Rulebook p15, 'The Shooting Phase' -Disallowed shooting, "units that are locked in combat with the foe." However it hits ALL models just like the Death Ray hits ALL enemy units. The Tesla Destructor also states it hits unengaged units. The Blood Lance specifically says it misses them. The only problem is the Monolith will hoover up your friendlies as well.

On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

Portal of Exile only effects enemy models. And I hope you weren't deep striking and firing both your Ordnance weapon and the Shooting attack of the Portal of exile. You can't make the shooting attack of the portal when you fire an ordnance weapon.

I just want to clarify that you can Deep Strike and shoot the Particle Whip.

You're right about not shooting everything else though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given a 6" radius circle can hold around 144 models, this doesnt seem too unlikely

A lot of that circle is taken up by the Monolith itself, so...

I know it is; i was just pointing out how many can be contained WITHIN 6", wholly, when as we know you only have to be 0.0......01" inside 6"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given a 6" radius circle can hold around 144 models, this doesnt seem too unlikely

They have to be within 1"-6" and LoS of the portal, not the Monolith. (well, 1" unless they had assaulted the Monolith previously).

It's larger than a semi-circle, as the effect doesn't have a center point, but rather a 3 dimensional door from which the effect is measured. The does is what? Inch and a quarter, inch and a half?

Is a monolith type Tank? Tank shock to bunch them up, then open door.

-Matt

Darkness - yes, I know they have to be within 1 - 6", you would be surprised just how may models can fit inside.

Your claim of "impossible" hasnt actually been calculated by you,has it? You just made a bald statement that is not true.

Ok the people saying that they don't have line of site because they are turned around. Really people? That's just dumb. If a dreden. or anything else just because its turned around. Well we should all just run our units backwards so nothing can shoot them. I get what you are saying but really people.

Running your models backwards means that *you* can't shoot - not that you can't be shot.
The magic door is the only thing that relies on the target having LoS to the shooter.

I wasn't being serious. It was a joke like saying the dredn. Thing was as stupid as that. A dredn and all models still have a 360 line of site. When you assault a dredn you don't attack the rear armor because it can pivot on the spot. I just think it was a dumb statement so I stated another dumb statement.

bladedragon03 wrote:I wasn't being serious. It was a joke like saying the dredn. Thing was as stupid as that. A dredn and all models still have a 360 line of site. When you assault a dredn you don't attack the rear armor because it can pivot on the spot. I just think it was a dumb statement so I stated another dumb statement.

Except that isn't true. Drednaughts explicitly do not have a 360 degree line of sight - they have to swivel to face their shooting target, and site along their guns. Yes, you're correct when you say that you don't hit rear armor automatically in CC - but that has absolutely zero to do with line of sight.

The first statement was dumb but accurate. Your statement was dumb and inaccurate.

Good job with that but really it does have a 360 line of sight just not when shooting its weapons. As far as the game rules go yes a walker has a 45 angle of shooting with line of sight. He's not going to miss that big monolith that could suck it up if close enough. Just because his shooting line of sight is limited doesn't mean his normal line of sight isn't. So if I deep strike behind one it shouldn't turn around and attack me because I would never know that I'm there. I'm all about someone should know there rules but that is stretching it a bit far saying it wouldn't have line of sight because its back is turned.

No. Line of Sight has a specific connotation in the game. If you deep strike behind someone, they won't be able to see you - but your army (because you're the general) knows they're there.

You're trying to conflate "line of sight" with awareness - not only does the latter not exist in the game, they aren't even the same thing in "real life".

Well I'm talking game not real life. So you can stop there. What if the general is in cc? Plus in real life that thing would have a camera or something eat watching is back. Awareness you need some sight to operate that thing. I stupid for going about this for so long. End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

bladedragon03 wrote: End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

Except it doesn't, because the rules don't work like that. The only time the rules define what the dreadnought can see is for shooting... and they explicitly define it as only being able to see in a 45 degree arc in the direction its weapons are pointing.

rigeld2 wrote:Running your models backwards means that *you* can't shoot - not that you can't be shot.
The magic door is the only thing that relies on the target having LoS to the shooter.

Perhaps object permanence doesn't exist in the world of 40k?

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:I wasn't being serious. It was a joke like saying the dredn. Thing was as stupid as that. A dredn and all models still have a 360 line of site. When you assault a dredn you don't attack the rear armor because it can pivot on the spot. I just think it was a dumb statement so I stated another dumb statement.

Except that isn't true. Drednaughts explicitly do not have a 360 degree line of sight - they have to swivel to face their shooting target, and site along their guns. Yes, you're correct when you say that you don't hit rear armor automatically in CC - but that has absolutely zero to do with line of sight.

The first statement was dumb but accurate. Your statement was dumb and inaccurate.

Does any of it really matter? I wasn't aware that a Dreadnought could even fail a strength test.

They fail on a 6.

bladedragon03 wrote:Well I'm talking game not real life. So you can stop there. What if the general is in cc? Plus in real life that thing would have a camera or something eat watching is back. Awareness you need some sight to operate that thing. I stupid for going about this for so long. End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

So your assertion is that if you can't "see" something, it's not possible to react to it?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. By the way - please try and type legibly - I can read what you're typing, but it takes more effort than it should.

edit: also, if you're not arguing realism then you have no basis for those statements - the rules are pretty clear.

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:Well I'm talking game not real life. So you can stop there. What if the general is in cc? Plus in real life that thing would have a camera or something eat watching is back. Awareness you need some sight to operate that thing. I stupid for going about this for so long. End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

So your assertion is that if you can't "see" something, it's not possible to react to it?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. By the way - please try and type legibly - I can read what you're typing, but it takes more effort than it should.

edit: also, if you're not arguing realism then you have no basis for those statements - the rules are pretty clear.

Ok when firing a walkers weapons you measure the range and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel. When measuring range you measure from the walkers base, as you would for an infantry model. If a walker doesn't have one. You would then measure from the hull. Firing the walkers own weapons is an exception to this.

So yes even if a walker is turned around it would still get sucked in by the monolith's door. There's your proof page 72 big red book.

DarknessEternal wrote:

phantommaster wrote:
On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

It's not possible for 60 enemy models to be within 1"-6" of the portal.

Well not with that attitude

So walkers can see behind them? You can't shoot behind you without turning the model, so you don't have LoS behind you. In case you missed it, LoS rules are on page 16.

Have I gone completely out of my mind, or can Walkers pivot in the shooting phase?

I seem to recall that from somewhere.

Monster Rain wrote:Have I gone completely out of my mind, or can Walkers pivot in the shooting phase?

I seem to recall that from somewhere.

They can - and must - pivot to face their target.

rigeld2 wrote:So walkers can see behind them? You can't shoot behind you without turning the model, so you don't have LoS behind you. In case you missed it, LoS rules are on page 16.

It states that you treat walkers as infantry unless they are shooting their own guns. Infantry pretty much have a 360 line of sight. It's not written in the big red book, but they do. It's just that 95% of the time you have the models facing the way they are shooting. They just turn their head. Simple.

For example Nemesor can give units abilities that are in his line of sight. He can give units that are behind him these abilities even though he's not facing them. He just turns his head and says hey you got this.

bladedragon03 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So walkers can see behind them? You can't shoot behind you without turning the model, so you don't have LoS behind you. In case you missed it, LoS rules are on page 16.

It states that you treat walkers as infantry unless they are shooting their own guns. Infantry pretty much have a 360 line of sight. It's not written in the big red book, but they do. It's just that 95% of the time you have the models facing the way they are shooting. They just turn their head. Simple.

For example Nemesor can give units abilities that are in his line of sight. He can give units that are behind him these abilities even though he's not facing them. He just turns his head and says hey you got this.

Infantry facing doesn't matter, so they're assumed to be looking at their target. Walker facing matters, so they must face their target. Line of sight is explicitly traced from the models eye's - unless you're asserting models have eye's in the back of their heads, they explicitly do not have LoS behind them. Nem can spin in place, give a power, then spin back - that doesn't mean he has LoS behind him.

Walkers facing does matter I agree with you. But as for line of site when they aren't shooting their own weapons. They are treated as infantry like the book states. So if I go by what you say the model would turn and then turn back around.

They are treated as infantry in that you get down and site through their "eyes" for non shooting purposes. I never said you can pivot out of phase (especially not your opponents phase) just to gain line of sight.


Regardless of any of that - there's *nothing* forcing you to look behind you, so models that are facing away explicitly do not have LoS behind them.

Ok so you are saying that Nemesor wouldn't be able to give a unit behind him an ability because he's facing away from them and not have line of site. Well Nemesor's ability is done at the start of the turn not the movement. There's nothing that says he doesn't see behind him unless its for the purpose of shooting his own weapons. Since he is treated as infantry then by your words it would spin or turn its head and then spin or turn its head back.

The reason they put line of site for the enemy is so the monolith couldn't suck people through walls and other impassable terrain.

Either I'm failing at getting my point across or I'm talking to a wall. Either way, I'm done.

I get your point. I'm not so sure you get mine. I'm just stating what the book says for the most part. Either way glad to hear we are both done.