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bladedragon03 wrote:It say you can turn them to shoot not have to turn them to shoot. Just like you can reroll some dice but you don't have to reroll them.

So models can see through the back of their heads?
Page 16, right column, 2nd paragraph. "Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part ... target unit."

If you are not facing your target, you can't draw a line from your eyes to the target model.

They must turn to face their target like you have stated. This would give them LoS.

The Monolith is making them have to Check LoS and that makes them target the Monolith and make them turn to face their target.

bladedragon03 wrote:They must turn to face their target like you have stated. This would give them LoS.

The Monolith is making them have to Check LoS and that makes them target the Monolith and make them turn to face their target.

... If they want to shoot the Monolith. Since, as you correctly stated, there's nothing forcing the pivot and check - just the requirement to check LoS.
If the don't want to shoot the Monolith, they don't have to. But they also are not required to pivot to gain LoS.

I agree a Dread with back to the door can be exiled. I also feel Infantry have 360 degree LOS.

For the weapons the dread has a limited "firing arc", but assume a dread had a turret weapon atop his head, he would be able to shoot behind him just like a tank would, right? If you disagree you are saying LOS is determined by weapon loadout, that really does not make sense to me.

As for troops, some have their heads turned ever which way, I even have a necron I assembled poorly who is facing the ground right in front of himself. Would you even suggest I wouldnt be able to shoot during the shooting phase because he is looking down?

Troop facing also states "Dramatically facing off afainst their foes is traditional" (ABR p. 11)...this seem more like fluff and meant to add to flavor than actual hard and fast rules.

The fact is the rules are meant to be read with common sense. Example, "Infantry may move 6''" It doesnt state that "the player" may move they infantry, it only states that they may move. How would you look at me if I told you you cant not assist them in moving since the rule doesnt state "the player" is the one doing the moving we can just sit and wait for them to walk on their own since this is obviously what GW intended. (This is an example, I know there are parts of the book that say you move models, Im just showing how stupid the game is when played without common sense)

helixthief wrote:I agree a Dread with back to the door can be exiled. I also feel Infantry have 360 degree LOS.

Too bad the rules disagree.

For the weapons the dread has a limited "firing arc", but assume a dread had a turret weapon atop his head, he would be able to shoot behind him just like a tank would, right? If you disagree you are saying LOS is determined by weapon loadout, that really does not make sense to me.

LoS is absolutely determined by the weapon - because the requirement is to trace LoS along the weapons mount and barrel. If a dread had a turret, you'd spin the turret and then trace LoS along the barrel.

As for troops, some have their heads turned ever which way, I even have a necron I assembled poorly who is facing the ground right in front of himself. Would you even suggest I wouldnt be able to shoot during the shooting phase because he is looking down?

Strict reading of the rules - you're correct. That model cannot shoot. Just like models without eyes cannot shoot.
Normal reading of the rules - face the target and you're fine.

Troop facing also states "Dramatically facing off afainst their foes is traditional" (ABR p. 11)...this seem more like fluff and meant to add to flavor than actual hard and fast rules.

Correct - the rules on page 11 don't state you must face your target. It's optional in the movement phase.
It's not optional in the shooting phase.

The fact is the rules are meant to be read with common sense. Example, "Infantry may move 6''" It doesnt state that "the player" may move they infantry, it only states that they may move. How would you look at me if I told you you cant not assist them in moving since the rule doesnt state "the player" is the one doing the moving we can just sit and wait for them to walk on their own since this is obviously what GW intended. (This is an example, I know there are parts of the book that say you move models, Im just showing how stupid the game is when played without common sense)

Thanks for assuming I'm reading the rules without common sense. Now how about you do me a favor and quote, using the rules and not "common sense", where infantry are given a 360 line of sight.
Fun fact - common sense isn't. It's neither common, nor is it universal.
Also - how is a physical impossibility (models moving themselves) related to the LoS rules (which spell out that to determine LoS you get to a model's eye view)?

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:They must turn to face their target like you have stated. This would give them LoS.

The Monolith is making them have to Check LoS and that makes them target the Monolith and make them turn to face their target.

... If they want to shoot the Monolith. Since, as you correctly stated, there's nothing forcing the pivot and check - just the requirement to check LoS.
If the don't want to shoot the Monolith, they don't have to. But they also are not required to pivot to gain LoS.

They turn to check LoS but you are right they don't have to shoot because they aren't being ask to shoot. They are being asked to check LoS. In most cases this would be a simple turn of the head and not actually rotating the base. This would be forcing them to check like you have all stated. They just wouldn't shoot because they aren't being asked to do such a thing.

Also thanks for agreeing with me helixthief and having some common sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it's not optional in the shooting phase then the models would have to turn and check LoS to the Monolith. You have just proved yourself wrong.

So Razorback with TL Lascannon 360 degree LOS, after weapon destroyed no 360 LOS?


Im just stating common sense is read with the rules. Another example, it state "Units may choose too (run/shoot/move)" Where does it state you get to choose for them? The units have to choose not you.


Models that are facing down cant fire forward. So models that are facing forward can not see models on a 2nd floor? What about some Nids with eyes on the side of their head? Can they not fire at their intended target because once they change their facing, to face their target, it is out of LOS?


Also if you wanted to get really technical on RAW it says a line must be able to be "traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of the intended target" it also states "Models can always draw LOS through members of their own unit". If you combine these two rules a line could be drawn backwards through the head of the model (which is a memeber of his own unit, hence does not block line of sight) to the intended target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are wrong on this, for all the reaosns given already that you purposefully choose to ignore.

You have no rules support for your argument. None at all. See the box out, page 16. Guess what - you have to be able to see from their eyes, otherwise you dont have LOS. If your model is not turned towards them you dont have LOS.

End. Of.

Oh, and before you raise the "can" - you are not forced to shoot, and are not forced to have LOS. Of course, youre not shooting if you dont fulfil both of those, but THAT is why they have "can" in there.

I do agree with this 100%

If the monolith was always assumed to be in their line of sight, no matter if it is in front, behind, of beside, then why is the rule even there? The rule serves no purpose if the unit is assumed to "see" the monolith.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are wrong on this, for all the reaosns given already that you purposefully choose to ignore.

You have no rules support for your argument. None at all. See the box out, page 16. Guess what - you have to be able to see from their eyes, otherwise you dont have LOS. If your model is not turned towards them you dont have LOS.

End. Of.

Oh, and before you raise the "can" - you are not forced to shoot, and are not forced to have LOS. Of course, youre not shooting if you dont fulfil both of those, but THAT is why they have "can" in there.

I do agree with this 100%

If the monolith was always assumed to be in their line of sight, no matter if it is in front, behind, of beside, then why is the rule even there? The rule serves no purpose if the unit is assumed to "see" the monolith.

The rule is there to make it impossible to pull someone through a wall.

Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

inquisitorlewis wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

The unit locked in close combat doesnt have to do anything. LOS is something that "is" regardless of facing for infantry.



On a related note....LOS isnt the same are Arc of Sight which is used for firing weapons on a vehicle (dreadnaught).

So, its common sense to play an IGOUGO system with 10 foot GM space knights and 1000 year old space elves flying aroundin ships without lights?

Lol

Blade - so, now youre making up that the users are "targetting" the monolith? Seriously. Thats hilarious.

Try looking back at the last 3 years of discussions on infantry LOS. You are not somehow creating a new interpretation, you have no rules support whatsoever for anything you are claiming, and are now resorting to entirely making up concepts in order to support your position.

bladedragon03 wrote:If it's not optional in the shooting phase then the models would have to turn and check LoS to the Monolith. You have just proved yourself wrong.

No. You're misunderstanding.

If you want to shoot, you have to turn. You don't have to turn if you don't want to shoot.

If I don't want to shoot the monolith, I don't have to turn to face it. I'll check LoS and fail.



As far as "They can look through their own head" no, they really can't. Read the rules - you get down to the models level, *behind* the model, to check what he sees. You don't get down in front of the model to look.


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helixthief wrote:On a related note....LOS isnt the same are Arc of Sight which is used for firing weapons on a vehicle (dreadnaught).

Please - cite the rules that mark them distinct.

I love that Helixthief put up one time that the rule is there to stop things from being pulled from walls or other impassable terrain and everyone understands it. I put it up twice and everything just ignored it. lolololololol

No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

As far as "They can look through their own head" no, they really can't. Read the rules - you get down to the models level, *behind* the model, to check what he sees. You don't get down in front of the model to look.

[.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

I'm not making up rules. You have to turn the models to the target and then look for LoS. You can turn the model a full 360 for that purpose. What's made up about that. It's not written but it is a fact.

helixthief wrote:On a related note....LOS isnt the same are Arc of Sight which is used for firing weapons on a vehicle (dreadnaught).

Please - cite the rules that mark them distinct.

helixthief wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

The unit locked in close combat doesnt have to do anything. LOS is something that "is" regardless of facing for infantry.

LOS just "is" 360 degrees? Sounds like circle of sight then.

Read page 16 of the rulebook. Read it a second time. How do you even begin to say they have 360 when it says to get down behind the model to check los? It doesn't say make them look out the eyes in the back of their head.

They have the ability to turn with no penalty to shoot, but that is not stating that they can shoot without turning. Just because most players don't bother turning all their models to shoot something, doesnt make it right.

People are acting like this is some massive revelation... when really, 99% of the time it doesn't make a difference to the game, it's absolutely playable, and only silly effects like the Monolith's door suffer.

bladedragon03 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

I'm not making up rules. You have to turn the models to the target and then look for LoS. You can turn the model a full 360 for that purpose. What's made up about that. It's not written but it is a fact.

The monolith is not their target. That is just ONE of the many rules you have made up.

If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way of their LoS and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

helixthief wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

The unit locked in close combat doesnt have to do anything. LOS is something that "is" regardless of facing for infantry.

LOS just "is" 360 degrees? Sounds like circle of sight then.

Read page 16 of the rulebook. Read it a second time. How do you even begin to say they have 360 when it says to get down behind the model to check los? It doesn't say make them look out the eyes in the back of their head.

They have the ability to turn with no penalty to shoot, but that is not stating that they can shoot without turning. Just because most players don't bother turning all their models to shoot something, doesnt make it right.

The "Line" is drawn between models. You cannot draw a line between 3 points if the 3rd isnt behind the 2nd in reference to the 1st. (Come on, really?)

You choose your target, line up behind your model, decide if there is a clear LOS from your model to your oppts model. The reason you get down to check LOS is obvious...because it is more effective than checking it without getting down to a "model's eye view".

BTW do you think people that use laser pointers but dont "get down" behind their model are cheating, or shouldnt be able to shoot? Just curious how far you take this.

LoS is defined as a line "traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part...". So when A shoots at B, you trace a line from A to B. But in the case of the portal the line is traced from B to A. And there lies the problem. The whole concept of LoS wasn't made with the portal in mind. That's why I said there is need for some common sense. How can it be possible for a weapon not to work just by turning your back on it?

Anyway this is an argument that's never going to reach the tables 99%. If you wish to expose your rear AV on my monolith (and anything else near by) be my guest. 1/6 chance of being sucked is a lot better than what's going to happen to it from all my str5-6-7-8s weapons.

"Behind" really what else needs to be said.

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

helixthief wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

According to what rule?

inquisitorlewis wrote:"Behind" really what else needs to be said.

What are you refering to?