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7 Pages later and time and again what your saying has been met and answered. from page one maybe 2 i think.

End Result

By RAW the Boarding plank does not work.

If it does work then it can be used in both Assault Phases.

imo this is a very silly thread...

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:7 Pages later and time and again what your saying has been met and answered. from page one maybe 2 i think.

Incorrectly...

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:End Result

By RAW the Boarding plank does not work.

If it does work then it can be used in both Assault Phases.

That is untrue, it works just fine, you choose not to read it that way, so you think it does not work.

nkelsch wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
Except, that's irrelevant. The only requirement for the boarding plank is to be able to make close combat attacks and being and ork.

Wrong.

And you are not engaged and the boarding plank gives you no ability to be engaged so how do you make your close combats attack on your opponents phase with no explicit permission to do so and not being engaged with any models in CC?

No permission exists anywhere. There is nothing that allows the rule to be executed on your opponents turn (or any turn actually) and nothing gives the impression you can use it on your opponents turn without making up rules and adding language fromthe wrecking ball upgrade.

You know that is nonsense, do you? You can strike non-walker vehicles without being engaged with them on your opponents turn even without a boarding plank. Thus your argument is null and void.
The rules I quoted before (and were conveniently ignored as "my dream world") explicitly allow the use of close combat attacks during my opponents turn against vehicles that I struck during my turn. As long as I am allowed to make close combat attacks, I utilize the boarding plank to do so.

DeathReaper wrote:Except the ork acts "Exactly as if disembarked and charging"

You are not actually in B2B but you act as if you are assaulting, something you can not do on your opponents turn.

You keep saying that as if it were written that way in the rules. Just go back and read all your arguments, in every single one you add one or two words to the actual rules text to slightly alter it's meaning to support your argument. This is a clear indication that you don't have an actual argument.

The ork does not act as if disembarked and charging.
He is making attacks as if disembarked and charging.
You are allowed to make close combat attacks during your opponents turn, if the vehicle was struck by the same unit the turn before.
There is no rule preventing you from making attacks in a special way during your opponents turn. If you think otherwise, provide a quote and, at the same time, explain how any special close combat weapon ever works during an opponents turn.
Unless you can provide a quote that explicitly denies you from "making close combat attacks as if disembarked and charging" during and opponents turn instead of you cherry-picking parts of the rule to fit your argument, you have no case.

"as if disembarked and charging"

You can be "as if disembarked" in an opponents turn.

You can not be "as if charging" in an opponents turn.

Why not?

What prevents a rule from making your attacks count as if charging during an opponents turn?
Why would a fictional USR "Angry - Allows this model to make all its close combat attacks as if charging" not work?

You can be "as if assaulting" in your opponents turn as seen in CA.
We all think charging means assaulting anyway.
Now before you say that CA grants permission I would argue BP grants permission as well.
It has no restriction saying that it only works in one phase. The only argument that I've seen saying you can't use BP during the opponents phase is that you cannot "charge".
I do not think "as if" charging is the restriction it is being made out to be.

At this point we have run around in circles restating the same points many times, I think I don't have anything else to add to this debate. Hopefully a resolution can be found, cheers.

Since it seems that the main hang up is the "as if" part, let me throw this question out there. Can searchlights or Acute Senses be used against a Tau model equipped with a Stealth Field Generator? Why or why not? Please do not argue with others about this, I'm curious as to opinions.

Happyjew wrote:Since it seems that the main hang up is the "as if" part, let me throw this question out there. Can searchlights be used against a Tau model equipped with a Stealth Field Generator? Why or why not? Please do not argue with others about this, I'm curious as to opinions.

No they cannot be used against a model with Stealth Field Generators.
The most up to date Searchlight in the GK Codex:
"Searchlights are used when the Night Fighting rule is in effect..."
Stealth Field Generators do not create night fighting and its rule even says it does not have any additional effects when night fighting is actually in place. As such I would say that it creates an effect similar to night fighting that is in no way night fighting.

Again you are checking range "as if" in nightfighting. You are not actually in Night Fight and as such cannot use any wargear that would help you if you were.

Icemyn wrote:You can be "as if assaulting" in your opponents turn as seen in CA.
We all think charging means assaulting anyway.

Note that the BRB actually defines "charge" as the process of assaulting in the section about assaulting into cover. Just to get this dead and beaten horse out of the way.

Jidmah wrote:Why not?

What prevents a rule from making your attacks count as if charging during an opponents turn?
Why would a fictional USR "Angry - Allows this model to make all its close combat attacks as if charging" not work?

because "exactly as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" means they need to be able to make a charge move. Something you can not do on your opponents turn.

You may only perform this action whenever you could be "disembarked and charging" because of the underlined below:


"Boarding Plank: Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring attacks on nearby vehicles, A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as if the Ork were disembarked and charging, provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"."

Icemyn wrote:You can be "as if assaulting" in your opponents turn as seen in CA.
We all think charging means assaulting anyway.
Now before you say that CA grants permission I would argue BP grants permission as well.
It has no restriction saying that it only works in one phase. The only argument that I've seen saying you can't use BP during the opponents phase is that you cannot "charge".
I do not think "as if" charging is the restriction it is being made out to be.

Counter Attack specifically grants permission.
Boarding Plank does not specifically grant permission.

Jidmah wrote:

Icemyn wrote:You can be "as if assaulting" in your opponents turn as seen in CA.
We all think charging means assaulting anyway.

Note that the BRB actually defines "charge" as the process of assaulting in the section about assaulting into cover. Just to get this dead and beaten horse out of the way.

Pg. 36 Third Paragraph under Assaulting Through Cover. " If all of the enemy units assaulted were already locked in combat from a previous turn or had gone to ground, this penalty does not apply as the enemy warriors are not set to receive the charge, and the unit assaulting through cover fights at normal Initiative."

While not a definition, it does for the most part link charge with assault. Though some may argue it as fluff regardless.

The context of that sentance is what your missing.

The Ork can make his CC attacks....exactly AS IF the ork were disembarked and charging.

one more time for goodness sake.

At no time is an Assault or Charge taking place. so to say i cant charge on my opponents turn is irrelevant cause at no point in time is the embarked ork doing so.

DeathReaper wrote:
Counter Attack specifically grants permission.
Boarding Plank does not specifically grant permission.

As I said I think it grants broad permission to be used in the assault phase.
Which is all the permission is required. Not every piece of wargear that works in the assault phase has to state that it works in both or works in the opponents.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:The context of that sentance is what your missing.

The Ork can make his CC attacks....exactly AS IF the ork were disembarked and charging.

one more time for goodness sake.

At no time is an Assault or Charge taking place. so to say i cant charge on my opponents turn is irrelevant cause at no point in time is the embarked ork doing so.

There is no assault actually taking place, because you are not moving models into Base contact.

But a single Ork "make[s] its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as if the Ork were charging"...

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Why not?

What prevents a rule from making your attacks count as if charging during an opponents turn?
Why would a fictional USR "Angry - Allows this model to make all its close combat attacks as if charging" not work?

because "exactly as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" means they need to be able to make a charge move. Something you can not do on your opponents turn.

So also claim that a daemon prince moving as if he were jump infantry is not allowed to do so because monstrous creatures can not move like jump infantry? I see.

As for all that timing silliness that keeps coming up: If you were required to have permission to use a special rule during your opponents turn, GK Brotherhood Champions(and for that matter, Crowe) would never be allowed to make a single close combat attack during an opponents turn, as "The Perfect Warrior" does not specify that it can be used during an opponents turn. Same for Seth's "Whirlwind of Gore", Obyron's "Cleaving Counterblow", or even a Furioso's blood claws. None of these are given explicit permission to work during an opponent's assault phase.

Happy:
All special rules and wargear that interacts with nightfighting requires the actual Night Fighting rules to be in effect, not just making a spot check during night fighting. In addition, Stealth Fields explicitly say that they provide no additional benefit while the Nightfighting Rules are in effect, so Searchlights, Acute Senses or Nightvision can never interact with that rule, sadly making it useless as an analogy.
Other uses of "as if" would be the tremor shell of a thunderfire cannon and the search light itself. Each time not placing a restriction, but changing the rules on how another action is executed (movement, shooting).

CC attacks are specifically allowed if you are "Engaged" in CC.

a model embarked on a vehicle is not "Engaged" in CC.

The DP Specifically is allowed to move like JI, but he still may not move in your opponents movement phase.

Page 63 gives explicit permission to attack vehicles you are not engaged with, as long as you have attacked the vehicle during your turn and the vehicle has not moved. It is impossible to be engaged with a non-walker vehicle during an opponents turn.

You really miss the whole point of the daemon prince argument. Either a rule utilizing "as" can break the less specific rules, or it can not. If a daemon prince can move as JI without limitation, models can attacks as if charging without limitation and vice versa. If claim one works and one doesn't you are being inconsistent.

Jidmah wrote:Page 63 gives explicit permission to attack vehicles you are not engaged with, as long as you have attacked the vehicle during your turn and the vehicle has not moved. It is impossible to be engaged with a non-walker vehicle during an opponents turn.

Technically, the explicit permission is to attack with "models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase" which precludes any kind of charging - 'as if' or not.

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Page 63 gives explicit permission to attack vehicles you are not engaged with, as long as you have attacked the vehicle during your turn and the vehicle has not moved. It is impossible to be engaged with a non-walker vehicle during an opponents turn.

Technically, the explicit permission is to attack with "models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase" which precludes any kind of charging - 'as if' or not.

Agree if BP is allowed to be used in the opponents turn it would have nothing to do with the rules you mentioned form pg. 63

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Page 63 gives explicit permission to attack vehicles you are not engaged with, as long as you have attacked the vehicle during your turn and the vehicle has not moved. It is impossible to be engaged with a non-walker vehicle during an opponents turn.

Technically, the explicit permission is to attack with "models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase" which precludes any kind of charging - 'as if' or not.

Which is actually refuted at the end of the very same rule, where it allows model not in base contact to attack as if they were engaged with the vehicle.

@Icymyn: No other rule allows you make attacks against non-walker vehicles during your opponents turn, thus the ork wouldn't have attacks he make using the boarding plank.

Can't be used in other players assault phase, and that's it.

Jidmah wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Page 63 gives explicit permission to attack vehicles you are not engaged with, as long as you have attacked the vehicle during your turn and the vehicle has not moved. It is impossible to be engaged with a non-walker vehicle during an opponents turn.

Technically, the explicit permission is to attack with "models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase" which precludes any kind of charging - 'as if' or not.

Which is actually refuted at the end of the very same rule, where it allows model not in base contact to attack as if they were engaged with the vehicle.

Am I misreading your point or the rules?

The parenthetical states "including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault" - this does NOT say they attack as if engaged, quite the other way around, as I read it.

The boarding plank does not count as being engaged - especially not in a "normal assault" so I am missing something I think.

masterofstuff1 wrote:Can't be used in other players assault phase, and that's it.

Oh, because you say so? I guess this debate is over then.
Please read the tenets of YMDC.

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Page 63 gives explicit permission to attack vehicles you are not engaged with, as long as you have attacked the vehicle during your turn and the vehicle has not moved. It is impossible to be engaged with a non-walker vehicle during an opponents turn.

Technically, the explicit permission is to attack with "models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase" which precludes any kind of charging - 'as if' or not.

Which is actually refuted at the end of the very same rule, where it allows model not in base contact to attack as if they were engaged with the vehicle.

Am I misreading your point or the rules?

The parenthetical states "including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault" - this does NOT say they attack as if engaged, quite the other way around, as I read it.

The boarding plank does not count as being engaged - especially not in a "normal assault" so I am missing something I think.

I think we are missing each other here. "Including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault" clearly ignores the restriction of being in base contact, that was my whole point.
So, if they were engaged with the vehicle(which they are not) and would be able to attack due to the "who may fight?" rules, they are allowed to attack the vehicle. Why do you think this is something different from attacking the vehicle as if engaged?
The boarding plank simply allows to make attacks against a vehicle within 2". So if have attacked the vehicle during your turn, you are allowed to attack it again, as the boarding plank allows you attack a target 2" from the vehicles hull rather than one in base contact.

Jidmah wrote:The boarding plank simply allows to make attacks against a vehicle within 2" [Exactly as if charging].

Added the orange.

You left out a big distinction.

If you are correct that the ork can attack in your opponents assault phase ,that would implie that a necron over lord in a command barge could make sweep attacks in the opponents movement phase should they pass over or under him at any point ,which he clearly can not

snakel wrote:If you are correct that the ork can attack in your opponents assault phase ,that would implie that a necron over lord in a command barge could make sweep attacks in the opponents movement phase should they pass over or under him at any point ,which he clearly can not

In your example they would have to pass under him which is not allowed due to the movement rules.
That's if you get by the fact that the Sweep Attacks rule is worded such that the OL needs to do the moving.

Does your opponent get to swing back or do you just attack with one model as the rule states?

Being engaged would mean the former, not being engaged and thus not being able to swing on the opponent's turn would mean the latter.

As I read it.

kirsanth wrote:Does your opponent get to swing back or do you just attack with one model as the rule states?

Being engaged would mean the former, not being engaged and thus not being able to swing on the opponent's turn would mean the latter.

As I read it.

You opponent(=walker) may not swing back, as he is not in base contact with any models, and thus may not fight via the "Who may fight?" rules. The Ork FAQ also explicitly says that walkers may not fight back. Note that even in regular combat, models might be engaged without being able to fight.

Besides, you can never be engaged with a non-walker vehicle, not even during your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:The boarding plank simply allows to make attacks against a vehicle within 2" [Exactly as if charging].

Added the orange.

You left out a big distinction.

What distinction? You have failed to prove that "as if" implies a restriction and have not refuted any argument provided showing the opposite. Thus any model is able do anything as if charging during any point of the game, making the orange part irrelevant to the discussion.

Exactly as if charging is a big distinction, and relevant, because you can not be 'Exactly as if charging' anytime other than your assault phase. as your assault phase is when you have permission to charge.

If you do not accept my explanation and claim 'i have not proven it' you are doing yourself a disservice.