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You know the way you are allowed to keep going as if it's another round of combat in the opponents phase if you are still in b2b with a vehicle.

If during your turn you drop the plank and hit it could you continue using the plank then in the opponents turn?

A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks angainst an enemy vehicle within 2" exacty as if the Orks were disembarked and charging." (Codex: Orks pg. 93)

You are given explicit permission to attack and count as charging by the boarding plank, as long as the embarked ork is able to make close combat attacks. An ork can make close combat attacks during any assault phase, not just his player's.

Coteaz says any argument concerning "you may only assault/charge during your turn" is null and void. Besides that, nothing prevents you from counting as charging at any point of the game.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Boarding Plank
"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"

Note that nowhere in the above does it tell you WHEN the Ork player makes these attacks. So no special permission is granted by the plank to make the assault in your opponent's assault phase, any more than permission is granted to do it in the movement phase, or the shooting phase for that matter.

The only way you get to make attacks is "as if disembarked and charging". Charging (launching an assault) is something you can only do in your own assault phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

liturgies of blood wrote:You know the way you are allowed to keep going as if it's another round of combat in the opponents phase if you are still in b2b with a vehicle.

If during your turn you drop the plank and hit it could you continue using the plank then in the opponents turn?

Per the rulebook, a model in a transport is not placed on the table, and thus cannot be in contact with any enemy unit. Per the FAQ, he does count as being in contact with his own transport vehicle, but not with anything else.

While I normally agree with you Mannahin, I find myself on the side of Jidmah and The_Godlyness.

As quoted the Boarding Plank allows you to make attacks. The whole bit about exactly like disembarked and charging only serves to tell you how to make the attacks. I.E. How many attacks you get and if furious charge bonuses apply.

If you apply the "exactly as if" to the charging you would have to apply it to the disembarked as well. I think we can all agree that you don't have to disembark the orks in order to use this piece of wargear.

This is an obvious example of where "as if" does not mean "is".

Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

Icemyn wrote:
Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

This.

If someone wants to try to thump RAW then technically the boarding plank DOES NOTHING because it doesn't actually ever give you permission to use it in any phase of the game. For it to function it is IMPLIED that it works during the assault phase as does the FAQ.

If we rely on the implication it works in the assault phase, then you can't turn around in the same breath and argue RAW that you may use it in the opponents turn.

It doesn't say when you CAN use it which means you cannot ever use it, not 'you can always use it anytime you wish'. It also doesn't tell you how often you may use it because it relies on implications like shooting an assaulting which ma be done once per very specific phase.

So either you:
A: Accept the RAI that it is implied to be an assault move done in the assault phase on your turn which can only be done once per that phase.
B: The wargear does nothing due to no explicit permition of number of times and phase this 'charging' attack occurs.

Any other interpretation becomes RAI which as soon as it is unreasonable, the game stops.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

This.

If someone wants to try to thump RAW then technically the boarding plank DOES NOTHING because it doesn't actually ever give you permission to use it in any phase of the game. For it to function it is IMPLIED that it works during the assault phase as does the FAQ.

If we rely on the implication it works in the assault phase, then you can't turn around in the same breath and argue RAW that you may use it in the opponents turn.

It doesn't say when you CAN use it which means you cannot ever use it, not 'you can always use it anytime you wish'. It also doesn't tell you how often you may use it because it relies on implications like shooting an assaulting which ma be done once per very specific phase.

So either you:
A: Accept the RAI that it is implied to be an assault move done in the assault phase on your turn which can only be done once per that phase.
B: The wargear does nothing due to no explicit permition of number of times and phase this 'charging' attack occurs.

Any other interpretation becomes RAI which as soon as it is unreasonable, the game stops.

well do you make close combat attacks in the movement phase? no

do you make close combat attacks in the shooting phase. no

therefore you have to be in the assault phase.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

This.

If someone wants to try to thump RAW then technically the boarding plank DOES NOTHING because it doesn't actually ever give you permission to use it in any phase of the game. For it to function it is IMPLIED that it works during the assault phase as does the FAQ.

If we rely on the implication it works in the assault phase, then you can't turn around in the same breath and argue RAW that you may use it in the opponents turn.

It doesn't say when you CAN use it which means you cannot ever use it, not 'you can always use it anytime you wish'. It also doesn't tell you how often you may use it because it relies on implications like shooting an assaulting which ma be done once per very specific phase.

So either you:
A: Accept the RAI that it is implied to be an assault move done in the assault phase on your turn which can only be done once per that phase.
B: The wargear does nothing due to no explicit permition of number of times and phase this 'charging' attack occurs.

Any other interpretation becomes RAI which as soon as it is unreasonable, the game stops.

You know, it say right there when to use it. Whenever an embarked ork would make a close combat attack. It just changes what the ork can direct its close combat attacks at.

If you manage to get allowance for your embarked orks to make close combat attacks during movement or shooting, you would be allowed to use the boarding plank right then.

Do not mistake no limitation for no allowance. Otherwise the whole game system comes crashing down on you, as I would bet my hat that there are dozens of static, non triggering special rules which are not limited to any phase.

Jidmah wrote:

You know, it say right there when to use it. Whenever an embarked ork would make a close combat attack. It just changes what the ork can direct its close combat attacks at.

If you manage to get allowance for your embarked orks to make close combat attacks during movement or shooting, you would be allowed to use the boarding plank right then.

Do not mistake no limitation for no allowance. Otherwise the whole game system comes crashing down on you, as I would bet my hat that there are dozens of static, non triggering special rules which are not limited to any phase.

Except if a rule said you could make your close combat attacks in the movement phase then you would eb allow to because you have explicit permission. We just assume it works in the assault phase because we are implying we follow all the rules for assault and close combat, hence where the assumption they could possibly execute attacks as if they were in combat in the opponents phase is getting pulled from.

The problem is there are people in other threads on other forums who argue the lack of specificity gives them freedom to use it anytime. Which is hogwosh. Even the definition of 'charging=assault' requires RAI due to this being a 4th edition codex.

This is why implying that the 'as if' combined with close combat = attack on models within 2" in the assault phase of your opponent takes leaps of RAI which are not supported.

nkelsch wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

You know, it say right there when to use it. Whenever an embarked ork would make a close combat attack. It just changes what the ork can direct its close combat attacks at.

If you manage to get allowance for your embarked orks to make close combat attacks during movement or shooting, you would be allowed to use the boarding plank right then.

Do not mistake no limitation for no allowance. Otherwise the whole game system comes crashing down on you, as I would bet my hat that there are dozens of static, non triggering special rules which are not limited to any phase.

Except if a rule said you could make your close combat attacks in the movement phase then you would eb allow to because you have explicit permission. We just assume it works in the assault phase because we are implying we follow all the rules for assault and close combat, hence where the assumption they could possibly execute attacks as if they were in combat in the opponents phase is getting pulled from.

So how is the rule influenced at all by when you are allowed to make close combat attacks? It is always active, just like stubborn, force weapons or mob rule. It just doesn't have an effect unless the ork is currently able to make close combat attacks, just like stubborn doesn't have any effect unless you are taking moral checks with a modifier. If you claim that boarding plank doesn't work because no timing is defined, then stubborn and force weapons don't work either.

The problem is there are people in other threads on other forums who argue the lack of specificity gives them freedom to use it anytime. Which is hogwosh. Even the definition of 'charging=assault' requires RAI due to this being a 4th edition codex.

BRB pg. 36, last paragraph defines "a charge" as the process of assaulting.

You also mistakenly assume that the BRB is to be parsed like source code or technical writing. You are applying an incompatible method of reading to a text that is not written that way and thus get wrong results. RAW does allow and require minimal interpretation as long as those interpretations are unambiguous. If one interpretation breaks the game and the other doesn't, the former one is obviously irrelevant.

This is why implying that the 'as if' combined with close combat = attack on models within 2" in the assault phase of your opponent takes leaps of RAI which are not supported.

No leaps, pure RAW.

BRB pg. 35 allows orks to make close combat attacks against models in base contact, independent from whose turn it is.
Codex Orks pg. 93 allows embarked orks to attack vehicles within 2" of a vehicle with a boarding plank
BRB pg. 63 allows orks to strike vehicles that were attacked the turn before again if it has not moved, just as in a normal ongoing combat.

All the boarding plank does is change "base contact" to "within 2" of my vehicle" for one ork. He also gets to count as charging, which isn't that mind breaking, considering that other models get to shoot or make close combat attacks out of order if a tank runs them over.

If the plank truly made "within 2" of my vehicle" the equivalent of base contact, you'd have an actual assault, with the target (if it was a Walker) able to fight back, combat resolution, being locking in combat, etc. You're having to create more rules.

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge.
2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

Mannahnin wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge.
2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

And if someone argues #2 (which I have met people who are) then I would say the lack of specificity means the wargear ceases to function.

So it is #1 or the game ends.

Why are people ignoring the first part of the quoted rule so much? The part that tells us when the plank can be used:

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles..."

The planks can be used whenever the orks are allowed to make assaults. So whenever an ork can make an assault...thats the only time the planks can be used. There is nothing in the plank rules that allows the ork player to launch assaults at new times.




Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Why are people ignoring the first part of the quoted rule so much? The part that tells us when the plank can be used:

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles..."

The planks can be used whenever the orks are allowed to make assaults. So whenever an ork can make an assault...thats the only time the planks can be used. There is nothing in the plank rules that allows the ork player to launch assaults at new times.




Sliggoth

it was being ignored due to it being fluff.

on the walker fighting back there is a FAQ saying he can't

in the FAQ it specifies, when the ork Attacks using the..... not when the ork assaults using the BP

Right. So no assault is ACTUALLY launched, the ork never counts as being in base contact or engaged in assault. Thus he cannot attack in the opponent's turn, and as the FAQ confirms, an enemy walker can't attack him back.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:nothing on page 33 disallows an assault on an opponents turn, the only thing forbidding you to do so is well simply its not your turn.

and assaulting=/=charging.

If you try this on an opponent, expect several hits upside the face with a BGB.

Mannahnin wrote:Right. So no assault is ACTUALLY launched, the ork never counts as being in base contact or engaged in assault. Thus he cannot attack in the opponent's turn, and as the FAQ confirms, an enemy walker can't attack him back.

Correct no Assault is launched.

but i can still make attacks. due to satisfying the requirements to use it.

did neitehr vehicle move more than 12 check

are you within 2" check

then an embarked ork can make his CC attacks V that vehicle.


mind you i am not completely ignorant that this needs so interpretation as to when. but i think we all agree it happens in the assault phase. if only because that is when CC attacks are made.

We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

but as icemyn has pointed out it should not work in the first place.


but now envision this two Battle wagons Roll up next to each other and both of them make simultaneous boarding plank attacks. now that seems like some Free Booting pirate shenanigans there.

"...as if disembarked and charging". You can only charge in your own turn.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

It has to be only on "Controlling players assault phase" because of the wording of the rule that says:

"...as if disembarked and charging". and you can only charge if it is your own assault phase. You can not charge in the opponents assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

It has to be only on "Controlling players assault phase" because of the wording of the rule that says:

"...as if disembarked and charging". and you can only charge if it is your own assault phase. You can not charge in the opponents assault phase.

And am not doing so since as have stated above no assaults are made. no charge is being made at all,

just be cause it says as if i am charging DOES not mean i am making an assault. your reading it with out context.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:"...as if disembarked and charging". You can only charge in your own turn.

and we have established that the ork inside is not making an assault.

Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

But if we're not assaulting then what are we doing? We're making an attack on a vehicle using a bit of wargear. Something that, if not specified, can't be used in an opponents turn.

grendel083 wrote:Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

But if we're not assaulting then what are we doing? We're making an attack on a vehicle using a bit of wargear. Something that, if not specified, can't be used in an opponents turn.

This exactly.

It must specify that you can use it "...as if disembarked and charging" on your opponents turn.

It does not say you can, so you can not. This is because of our permissive ruleset.

Mannahnin wrote:If the plank truly made "within 2" of my vehicle" the equivalent of base contact, you'd have an actual assault, with the target (if it was a Walker) able to fight back, combat resolution, being locking in combat, etc. You're having to create more rules.

No you don't. The walker does not get allowance to replace base contact with 2", so by the "Who can fight?" rules, he may not attack, while still being attacked.

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

That's not what it says. The boarding plank does not allow the model to attack, it allows the model to attack in a special way.

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge.

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

So how about the timing on stubborn and force weapons? Boarding plank is no different than either of those rules. It is not an ability that is used or triggerd, it is simply a static effect that changes how embarked orks do their close combat attacks. No timing required.

DeathReaper wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

But if we're not assaulting then what are we doing? We're making an attack on a vehicle using a bit of wargear. Something that, if not specified, can't be used in an opponents turn.

This exactly.

It must specify that you can use it "...as if disembarked and charging" on your opponents turn.

It does not say you can, so you can not. This is because of our permissive ruleset.

The boarding plank states that you do your attacks as if (as it were, as it would be, in such a way that, just as, just as if, just as though) assaulting. There is no rule preventing you from counting as assaulting for the sake of making attacks outside of your assault phase. Not a single one.

Jidmah wrote:There is no rule preventing you from counting as assaulting for the sake of making attacks outside of your assault phase. Not a single one.

You're right, there isn't. But as mentioned before you're using a permissive rule set. You don't look for a rule that denies permission. You look for a rule that says you can. And the Boarding Plank doesn't.

"As if" can never indicate a condition

It can't be ignored either. If this piece of wargear allowed a true assault it would say "allows a model to assault", but the wording clearly shows this isn't a true assault.

grendel083 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:There is no rule preventing you from counting as assaulting for the sake of making attacks outside of your assault phase. Not a single one.

You're right, there isn't. But as mentioned before you're using a permissive rule set. You don't look for a rule that denies permission. You look for a rule that says you can. And the Boarding Plank doesn't.

"As if" can never indicate a condition

It can't be ignored either. If this piece of wargear allowed a true assault it would say "allows a model to assault", but the wording clearly shows this isn't a true assault.

we have established Assault=charging, BUT that has no bearing in this, icemyn summed it up pretty neatly

Icemyn wrote:While I normally agree with you Mannahin, I find myself on the side of Jidmah and The_Godlyness.

As quoted the Boarding Plank allows you to make attacks. The whole bit about exactly like disembarked and charging only serves to tell you how to make the attacks. I.E. How many attacks you get and if furious charge bonuses apply.

If you apply the "exactly as if" to the charging you would have to apply it to the disembarked as well. I think we can all agree that you don't have to disembark the orks in order to use this piece of wargear.

This is an obvious example of where "as if" does not mean "is".

Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

Just a nit pick. If you immobilized that land raider then you auto hit with your nob.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:we have established Assault=charging, BUT that has no bearing in this, icemyn summed it up pretty neatly

It was summed up neatly, but still a long (long) way off proving that boarding plank can be used in an opponents turn.

Jidmah wrote:

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

That's not what it says. The boarding plank does not allow the model to attack, it allows the model to attack in a special way.

It allows the model to attack in a circumstance under which it would not not normally be able to attack.

Jidmah wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

What? I dispute this. "As if" can easily be used to tell us HOW a unit performs an action. Telling us that the attacks are made "as if" charging is the basis of the model getting +1A for charging, and being eligible to use its +1S for Furious Assault. If the model can benefit from the benefits of launching an assault, it is only logical and intuitive for it also to be subject to the restriction of charging- that it's something you can only do in your own turn.

Jidmah wrote:

2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

So how about the timing on stubborn and force weapons? Boarding plank is no different than either of those rules. It is not an ability that is used or triggerd, it is simply a static effect that changes how embarked orks do their close combat attacks. No timing required.

You're incorrect on both counts. Both Stubborn and Force Weapons are used at clear and specific times. Stubborn kicks in when the unit takes a Morale test. Force Weapons can be triggered when the model successfully deals a wound. Each has a clear and specific time when it is used.

The Boarding Plank is rule which gives the Ork player the option of having one embarked model attack "as if disembarked and charging". There is no instruction as to when this ability can be used. If it is not when the model could normally charge, then when is it? What is your basis for claiming it is at any other time?

Mannahnin wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

What? I dispute this. "As if" can easily be used to tell us HOW a unit performs an action. Telling us that the attacks are made "as if" charging is the basis of the model getting +1A for charging, and being eligible to use its +1S for Furious Assault. If the model can benefit from the benefits of launching an assault, it is only logical and intuitive for it also to be subject to the restriction of charging- that it's something you can only do in your own turn.

While you may feel that it is "logical" or "intuitive" nothing in the RAW makes it so.
Your argument is basically A implies B therefore B implies C, which I think you can agree isn't true.

As I said I don't think that the plank works at all, but if you want it to work nothing is keeping it from working in your opponents assault phase.

Pg 35 of the BRB under Who can fight.
1 - Models in Base contact with any enemy models.
2 - Models within 2" of another model in base contact.

The Plank lets you make your Close Combat attacks, how many CC attacks does an ork not fitting the above 2 rules get? 0. So feel free to make 0 attacks against my vehicles. Go nuts really.

This is not HIWPI, if my opponent has planks he is free to use them during his turn. If he tries to use them on my turn during another phase(TFG) that will be the last time he gets to use the planks against me at all(RAW).

So you have a few choices for how you would play the plank.
1) It doesnt work at all.(RAW)
2) It works in all assault phases.(RAI(To make it work at all) + RAW)
3) Some RAI reading that we all understand and the Ork Player uses it on his own turn only.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

It has to be only on "Controlling players assault phase" because of the wording of the rule that says:

"...as if disembarked and charging". and you can only charge if it is your own assault phase. You can not charge in the opponents assault phase.

And am not doing so since as have stated above no assaults are made. no charge is being made at all,

just be cause it says as if i am charging DOES not mean i am making an assault. your reading it with out context.

You can't say that it is an assault and it isn't an assault to your liking. If it's "as if assaulting" the Ork attacking would get the furious charge bonus as if it was assaulting. You can't get this in the opponents assault phase. Seems to me that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase. Besides, you're not locked in combat with a vehicle during your opponents assault phase, so you wouldn't be able to make attacks against it in their assault phase(excluding walkers, which even have a FAQ indicating that I feel is indictive of this case), as that's something that happens in CC. There is no base contact since the model isn't technically on the board.

As an Ork player I wish this could happen as it's pretty Orky. The rules are kinda fuzzy but there's enough there to say that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase.

beigeknight wrote:
You can't say that it is an assault and it isn't an assault to your liking. If it's "as if assaulting" the Ork attacking would get the furious charge bonus as if it was assaulting. You can't get this in the opponents assault phase. Seems to me that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase. Besides, you're not locked in combat with a vehicle during your opponents assault phase, so you wouldn't be able to make attacks against it in their assault phase(excluding walkers, which even have a FAQ indicating that I feel is indictive of this case), as that's something that happens in CC. There is no base contact since the model isn't technically on the board.

As an Ork player I wish this could happen as it's pretty Orky. The rules are kinda fuzzy but there's enough there to say that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase.

There is a Universal Special rule that shows up in Codex:Space Wolves quite a bit. Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.
Again as I have said a couple of times before the "as if" line is only there to tell you how many attacks you get not to impart timing restrictions.