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Nemesor wrote:
nemesor awayyyyyyyyyyyyy

Neither of your posts have anything to do with the topic and your spelling and grammar are absolutely atrocious. Please use punctuation and good spelling when you post here, as everything you've written is nigh-incomprehensible.

Electro wrote:Face it, your wrong. I said 80-90% of he market and everything i have shown has proven that. I have proven that WotC (who compaird to most rpg companys are huge) are not the big deal you think. You have done some pointless maths that shows nothing more than that you don't know anything about finance and accountancy. Market share is not as simple as you seem to think. E.g Some of WotCs income may not come from RPG's, so not part of the market share. Now, unless you can come back to me with some solid data from an independant sorce lets stop dragging this thread off topic.

Unfortunately, key sources I'd need to be able to access (such as Privateer Press' and Battlefront's figures) aren't publicly available, given they aren't companies whose records aren't published on Investor Relations pages. Trying to get up-to-date figures for the WotC division of Hasbro is also proving awkward - mainly due to the length of the Hasbro's 2011 Annual Report. The only bit of data I could get from it was that Magic (or possibly WotC, the language is unclear - see the third page of the PDF, column 2, in the Hasbro Gaming section) totalled less than $100 million of revenue in 2008. The language is telling - I think that would imply over $75 million, but that's just my opinion. Using current exchange rates (which won't help), that'd give £46.7-£62m depending on the exact figure. I'm going to quote an excerpt from the report:

Hasbro Annual Report wrote:An example of the successful execution of this approach is MAGIC: THE GATHERING. The team at Wizards of the Coast has done a tremendous job of taking this brand, which totaled less than $100 million in revenues in 2008 and was declining, to where it is today - the largest brand in our Games and Puzzles category, the largest game brand in the U.S. and more than double its size versus just three years ago.

Again, it doesn't give an exact figure, but by implication I'm guessing roughly $150-$200 million on Magic alone - £93m-£127m. That puts it at anywhere from 2/3 the size of GW to larger than GW on its own. Assuming you're using the same definition of market as the PWC report, of course, then these figures alone destroy your claim. If your claim is specific to the wargaming market (which isn't the claim GW were making, which was 94% of a larger market), then these figures won't matter against that too much - but they would seem to sink the PWC report.

You might have more luck getting information on WotC's performance from it than I did - as far as I can see from their website, all of WotC's brands would qualify within the market segment claimed in the alleged PWC report stating 94% market share.

I do remember that there were reports on the top 5 games within the wargaming sector from a trade magazine/newsletter, and the last report I heard (which was a while back) had them as roughly: 40k, Warmachine, Hordes, Warhammer, and a fifth I can't remember. Fuzzy, I know, but I can't for the life of me remember the source.

While my figures may not have huge worth

Electro wrote:For the record i have worked in finance for the past 10 years, am a qualified credit manager and my wife is a part qual accountant (ACCA) who worked for Deloit for 3 years in audit.

That's nice for you.

Also, if you're trying to prove your superiority, I'd recommend checking your spelling.

Electro wrote:Wotc 2004 finacial report... They are not as big as you seem to think they are. $25 million sales.. About £15 million. GWs revanue in the first HALF of 2010 was £60 million. Diffrent years, but i can't find like for like. If your going to "safely say" things check your facts. Compaird to GW WotC are tiny.

Hasbro doesn't release exact official numbers on everything, so that is why no official numbers can be found, but it is said to take in about 1.3B from "games & puzzles" annually, with MTG being (one of) their stand-outs in that department. The annual number for MTG, according to sources from within the industry, which are viewed as reliable, is estimated at 1/5th of that total, about 250.000.000$, so it looks like you left out a 0

There are an estimated 6 million MTG players around the world. Let's say that even if that estimation is too high maybe, but say 4 million, then do a very simple calculation:

Four million people would only have to spend slightly over 60$ A YEAR, on average, to get to that sales number, which isn't too crazy when you think about how much money is spent on these (miniatures & trading cards) hobbies, is it?

From Hasbro's 4th Quarter Investor Call:

For the full year 2010, worldwide net revenues were $4.0 billion compared to $4.07 billion last year, a decline of $66 million. Foreign exchange had a negative $17.7 million impact on net revenues for the year.
Operating profit for the year was $587.9 million. As a percentage of revenue, operating profit margin improved to 14.7% versus 14.5% in 2009.

On a personal note, I own stock in both GW and Hasbro and Hasbro makes so much more money for me than GW that it's silly to compare the two.

So, should this be locked now, as it's gone off topic and DrBored's rumours have been pretty roundly discredited by more reliable rumour-mongers?

Sure.