Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AlexHolker wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:On another level, a kinda sinister form of othering where it just gets taken for granted that any player who doesn't fit the game's main demographic needs an army or release specifically catering to them in order to enjoy the product.

If you're worried about "othering", look at what GW's already doing: how many of GW's human-like ranges treat women as non-entities? If "a kinda sinister form of othering" means releasing an army where men and women are treated as equals, then I say bring it on!

Nah, I'm not worried about GW doing the othering- after all these stories are always rumors or urban legends that never have evidence. I'm not talking about fans doing the othering.

Archonate wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

akkados wrote:Black templar needs some more love.

Black Templars are Space Marines. Your argument is invalid.

Black Templar is an army like all the others. No more. No less.

Incorrect. Black Templars (like DAs) are just yet another minor deviation of the same old army. 'Optional' or 'Supplementary Rules', if you will.
AlexHolker is somebody after my own heart, who thinks rationally.
Think of the rate of progress 40k could make if its release schedule wasn't gummed up with a new iteration of the same army every other turn.
All they have to do is put an entry in the SM codex outlining special rules for the major chapters. Voila! Just like that we could see more of the armies that add flavor to the universe... Perhaps even see a new race! And SM players will still be satisfied... (to whatever degree SM players are ever satisfied, that is...)

I'm praying that 6th edition solves this. From the rumors, it sounds like it will be consolidating many things.

Think of the lack of amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if it weren't for the number of Space Marine kits GW sold. It isn't rational to tell someone your preferred army is more deserved than theirs, especially when their army happens to bankroll the amazing kits your army gets.

I'm not saying Xenos don't deserve awesome books, and regular updates, I'm saying EVERY army does, not just yours.

Redemption wrote:And Harry adds:

Harry wrote:My best guess is still that Elder and Tau are both early next year.
Not 100% sure which way around but one straight after the other.

Ah, Harry's getting a bit more specific on his Eldar/Tau timeline...always a nice thing.

Cadaver wrote:

Archonate wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

akkados wrote:Black templar needs some more love.

Black Templars are Space Marines. Your argument is invalid.

Black Templar is an army like all the others. No more. No less.

Incorrect. Black Templars (like DAs) are just yet another minor deviation of the same old army. 'Optional' or 'Supplementary Rules', if you will.
AlexHolker is somebody after my own heart, who thinks rationally.
Think of the rate of progress 40k could make if its release schedule wasn't gummed up with a new iteration of the same army every other turn.
All they have to do is put an entry in the SM codex outlining special rules for the major chapters. Voila! Just like that we could see more of the armies that add flavor to the universe... Perhaps even see a new race! And SM players will still be satisfied... (to whatever degree SM players are ever satisfied, that is...)

I'm praying that 6th edition solves this. From the rumors, it sounds like it will be consolidating many things.

Think of the lack of amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if it weren't for the number of Space Marine kits GW sold. It isn't rational to tell someone your preferred army is more deserved than theirs, especially when their army happens to bankroll the amazing kits your army gets.

I'm not saying Xenos don't deserve awesome books, and regular updates, I'm saying EVERY army does, not just yours.

Think of how many more amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if GW would support all of their armies properly instead of leaving them in the dust for 10 years.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well
I'll be in Boot Camp until january! I was hoping I'd get some chaos into my greedy mitts before october!

What makes you think, you won't? Starter set including Chaos in September, Codex Chaos Legions October latest.

Oh, and just for completeness here the debunk quote:

Vegeta365 wrote:I very rarely post information on here, but many that know me from pm's will know I am rarely wrong. I just popped on the forum to see this thread and think that whilst I am sure you're heart is in the right place, this information is 100% wrong and whilst the forum encourages rumours, this thread not being closed is encouraging simply wrong information to be posted and discussed that will misinform people. By commenting that you're source knows people in the know this goes to further my point.

Put simply, this information is all wrong! I would absolutely love Eldar to be in the box and a codex this year, but this is not the case. The box is 100% as has been discussed and whilst I rarely post information, I do not like to see the wrong information put out there giving strong sources etc which result in misinforming people.

So because Vegeta says it's wrong, it has to be? Sorry, but this is the interwebs, and "It's wrong because I said so" is the weakest argument to be had. I am not convinced either way, but this DrBored and others on here offers some pretty compelling reasons why it may be Eldar, or another xenos set in the box. I'm gonna need to see some arguments against it before I buy his statement.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Think of how many more amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if GW would support all of their armies properly instead of leaving them in the dust for 10 years.

Honestly not as many as you think due to their significantly decreased budget.

Seriously Marines are THE cash cow for GW. There's a reason 4 of the 9 2nd ed books were Marines of some flavor.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Think of how many more amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if GW would support all of their armies properly instead of leaving them in the dust for 10 years.

You missed the point entirely. The money made by the sale of Space marine kits allows GW to spend lots of money producing Xenos kits. They know Space Marines will sell, Xenos are more of a gamble, and the reason Space Marines get more attention is because they make GW more money than all the other races combined.

Chicken/Egg. Would SM really be that better selling if Xenos were supported equally from the beginning?

Yeah, if they had only spent all their money on Squat development rather than marines, we'd have...uh...more Warma players I guess?

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Think of how many more amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if GW would support all of their armies properly instead of leaving them in the dust for 10 years.

Honestly not as many as you think due to their significantly decreased budget.

Seriously Marines are THE cash cow for GW. There's a reason 4 of the 9 2nd ed books were Marines of some flavor.

All of this would be a non issue if GW could put out more than three codices a year. For as big as they are, they really think small. A good sculptor or rules man doesn't cost a 100k a year. Maybe GW should invest in some staff instead of paying off the board of directors. Chicken, eggs...hell everything in this frying pan is seasoned totally wrong.

True dat. I wrote the 256-page, rules-heavy, licensed Conan RPG, and supervised ten external playtest teams in a detailed, in-depth playtest, in 3 months. GW could have one person write and thoroughly test at least 6 codices a year. If they cared about testing rules.

Honestly, I expect Chaos more than Eldar. Too many rumors surrounding Chaos being more important in 6th to NOT be in the starter set.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Think of how many more amazing plastic xenos kits there would be if GW would support all of their armies properly instead of leaving them in the dust for 10 years.

Honestly not as many as you think due to their significantly decreased budget.

Seriously Marines are THE cash cow for GW. There's a reason 4 of the 9 2nd ed books were Marines of some flavor.

All of this would be a non issue if GW could put out more than three codices a year. For as big as they are, they really think small. A good sculptor or rules man doesn't cost a 100k a year. Maybe GW should invest in some staff instead of paying off the board of directors. Chicken, eggs...hell everything in this frying pan is seasoned totally wrong.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh again Projects discussion:
Some numbers gents:

one sculptor = £35-45k/y - 1 sculpted model = 1 day? in 3d software for plastic injection moulding - (wholes squad of 10) = 21 working days with corrections, then is your injection tooling cost for new models = £35k min, time 8 weeks to manufacture (minimum) then casting trials , and lunching the project 8 weeks. Boxes design, making stock…..

and that is only for 1 "squad", total cost = £3.5k sculptor + £35k tooling + trials £10k + project manager £4k = rounding up £70k just to issue one new squad +non value added.
Timing for one squad = 4 months

now the book:
Writer + editor = £75k/y = 3 months approx £20k, the printing book: 100k copies World wide at the beginning (one book, hard cover, colour) = 100k* £7 = £700k
Printing, distribution – 8 weeks.
Timing for one book = 5 months

Now cash flow:

Total to issue book and one squad: £770k

GW profit 2011 :£15mil /12 months = £1.25mil/m, save level of investment 25% (rest assigned for capacity distribution and other non value added charges) = £312k a month

So after all GW is small company to issue a book + 1 new squad they have to work for 2.1 months.

Maybe GW do only put out 3 codexes a year, but remember that 40k isn't the only game GW makes!

So each year they generally put out between 2 or 3 40K Codexes, 2 or 3 Fantasy Army Books, various expansions like Storm of Magic plus maybe a special release like Space Hulk. It's not just a matter of saying they only do 3 books a year, when clearly they put out quite a lot more product. Just because it might not all be for your chosen game etc doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Plus it's not just about the books either, because there's generally shedloads of new models released alongside and that's not counting subsequent waves too.

Take last year for example, and correct me if I'm wrong but GW released 2 Codexes (Grey Knights and Necrons) all with new models. 2 or 3 Army Books (Tomb Kings, Orcs & Goblins and can't remember if there was another?) all with new models. Various different waves and/or models for different armies (Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Beastmen, O&G). There was the Finecast launch with all that entailed. Various scenery kits. Storm of Magic which included a shed load of models. Dreadfleet was released as well. I'm sure I might have missed something too.

So I actually thing GW do put out quite a bit of stuff, but it apparently seems easy to ignore it all unless it applies to the system and/or army you play.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather GW put out 2 or 3 books a year that contain a great background, rules and a fantastic model line to support it rather than 7 or 8 books a year that are rushed and below par just to shorten the gap between book releases. Plus I don't think many people would be all that pleased if their army was updated twice every edition and that they had to fork out and buy a new codex which in reality wasn't much different from their current one and a couple of substandard new units.

In fact, I can see it now. "Bloody GW, brought out another Codex for my Orks, just trying to rinse me of more money blah blah blah...."

Anyway, rant over.....

The Decapitator wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather GW put out 2 or 3 books a year that contain a great background, rules and a fantastic model line to support it rather than 7 or 8 books a year that are rushed and below par just to shorten the gap between book releases. Plus I don't think many people would be all that pleased if their army was updated twice every edition and that they had to fork out and buy a new codex which in reality wasn't much different from their current one and a couple of substandard new units.

In fact, I can see it now. "Bloody GW, brought out another Codex for my Orks, just trying to rinse me of more money blah blah blah...."

Anyway, rant over.....

So would I, but it would help if each codex didn't completely suck by the time it becomes due for an overhaul.

On the rumours, seems highly unlikely that Eldar will be in the boxed set. I think it's more likely that we'll see Eldar (or Tau) receive a sneaky late 2012 release (although I can only see that happening if Chaos sneaks in before 6th ed).

The Decapitator wrote:Maybe GW do only put out 3 codexes a year, but remember that 40k isn't the only game GW makes!

So each year they generally put out between 2 or 3 40K Codexes, 2 or 3 Fantasy Army Books, various expansions like Storm of Magic plus maybe a special release like Space Hulk. It's not just a matter of saying they only do 3 books a year, when clearly they put out quite a lot more product. Just because it might not all be for your chosen game etc doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Plus it's not just about the books either, because there's generally shedloads of new models released alongside and that's not counting subsequent waves too.

Take last year for example, and correct me if I'm wrong but GW released 2 Codexes (Grey Knights and Necrons) all with new models. 2 or 3 Army Books (Tomb Kings, Orcs & Goblins and can't remember if there was another?) all with new models. Various different waves and/or models for different armies (Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Beastmen, O&G). There was the Finecast launch with all that entailed. Various scenery kits. Storm of Magic which included a shed load of models. Dreadfleet was released as well. I'm sure I might have missed something too.

So I actually thing GW do put out quite a bit of stuff, but it apparently seems easy to ignore it all unless it applies to the system and/or army you play.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather GW put out 2 or 3 books a year that contain a great background, rules and a fantastic model line to support it rather than 7 or 8 books a year that are rushed and below par just to shorten the gap between book releases. Plus I don't think many people would be all that pleased if their army was updated twice every edition and that they had to fork out and buy a new codex which in reality wasn't much different from their current one and a couple of substandard new units.

In fact, I can see it now. "Bloody GW, brought out another Codex for my Orks, just trying to rinse me of more money blah blah blah...."

Anyway, rant over.....

Well said! I would very much like to have only a few codices released a year if it meant sweet new models, fantastic and well-balanced new rules, and well-written fluff. Hell, if Matt Ward can write such great rules, and Dan Abnett (I think that's how you spell his name) can write such good books, why not combine the two? This may be incredibly infeasible, but if it were possible, it could work.

Sweet lord, I'm so excited for chaos. If these rumors are wrong I won't be dissapointed, though.

god.ra wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:All of this would be a non issue if GW could put out more than three codices a year. For as big as they are, they really think small. A good sculptor or rules man doesn't cost a 100k a year. Maybe GW should invest in some staff instead of paying off the board of directors. Chicken, eggs...hell everything in this frying pan is seasoned totally wrong.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh again Projects discussion:
Some numbers gents:

one sculptor = £35-45k/y - 1 sculpted model = 1 day? in 3d software for plastic injection moulding - (wholes squad of 10) = 21 working days with corrections, then is your injection tooling cost for new models = £35k min, time 8 weeks to manufacture (minimum) then casting trials , and lunching the project 8 weeks. Boxes design, making stock…..

and that is only for 1 "squad", total cost = £3.5k sculptor + £35k tooling + trials £10k + project manager £4k = rounding up £70k just to issue one new squad +non value added.
Timing for one squad = 4 months

now the book:
Writer + editor = £75k/y = 3 months approx £20k, the printing book: 100k copies World wide at the beginning (one book, hard cover, colour) = 100k* £7 = £700k
Printing, distribution – 8 weeks.
Timing for one book = 5 months

Now cash flow:

Total to issue book and one squad: £770k

GW profit 2011 :£15mil /12 months = £1.25mil/m, save level of investment 25% (rest assigned for capacity distribution and other non value added charges) = £312k a month

So after all GW is small company to issue a book + 1 new squad they have to work for 2.1 months.

I 100% Believe that your numbers are either spot on or very close. But when CEO's pad their own, personal, bottom to the tune of an extra six digits per quarter instead of maintaining the companies best interests it makes more sense as to why releases take as long as they do. To loop this back into what I originally said Xenos funding Marines, Marines funding Xenos, what should be released next wouldn't be so critical of a deal if their major games (I'm focusing on 40k with following stats) launched more than one codex every 4.5 months. 5ed....8 Codices (8.25 if you count SoB), 4ed.....7 Codices (7.25 counting BA's). Aren't there like 16 codexed armies in 40k? GW are you honestly telling me that you can't get close to one codex, per army, per edition? Yeah right.

Your timing for one book figures don't address the fact that waiting for the rules to be written/playtesting, which takes longer than the printing, is the only major concern. Meaning that after one set of rules is written tested the writers aren't involved in the printing process happening in China, and can move on to the next project. I guarantee you if my primary responsibility were to write 3-4 game books per year...I could hold up my end. It's a labour of love. And a single codex release certain pays a writers salary, 3-4 a year...most certainly.

You don't see pen and paper games missing supplements for their core classes every edition. D & D missing a book for its paladins......hell no. Why? Because it's money in the bank. Interested gamers buy books. It's not hard to come up with $30 for a book once every three months. D & D doesn't miss basic core expansions per edition....they release the new edition after everything that can possibly be written has been written, and then when there's nothing more to be written they recycle the writing into a new rules set for the new edition. And they release if they don't release books, they don't make money.

You'll notice that I've not addressed the codex releases as they concern their corresponding miniature lines. Well neither does GW. Just ask the Tyranid player who had to wait 27 months to get his Tervigon or Harpy, or the Space Wolf player who waited 30 months to get some TWC love. That's GWs fault and theirs alone. I buy a lot of their new stuff as it releases, but my grav tanks are literally working off a 17 year old sprue (that I've paid $25, $30, $35, $40, $45 & finally $50 over the years). They want money, release new stuff. It pays for itself, it really does.

Maybe more staff to make the release schedule a little more bearable. Here's a thought, maybe the three major games should have adequate staff amongst themselves so the notion that the artists/writers have to divide their efforts wouldn't be so ear-burning. Maybe investing in the company and its future instead of pocket lining the board of directors. There's so much wrong.

For the record. My vote =p New eldar sales should fund new dark angel sales. Or maybe the two should fund chaos sales.

Paying 30 bucks once every 3-month cycle can be quite allot for some people you know, though I don't understand the logic in that unless you would want to buy a codex for each of all the armies or what ever. Wasn't the point I wanted to make though.

When it comes to the codices they can release compared to the number of armies available to players seems to me to be quite faulty. Why have more armies then your company can support? If they can't be arsed to make sure every army is supplied with the necessary codex-update the customers deserve then perhaps they should reduce the number of armies available.

I don't know if the numbers the previous author claimed was correct but say it was, is it okay for an army to wait 30 months for a codex which is in tune with the game? No it's really not, no matter how you would argue for the weight GW has to pull. They put themselves in the seat they are in, now they should man up and deal with it. Supply each army with regular updates on their codex.

Mmmmm...

I don´t want to sound in a misundestanding way but...

I don´t believe DrBored rumours...

We have been several months hearing Chaos vs DA... and all rumours and pics from GW tell us so.

Don´t see any Tau or Eldar on 2012

MarneusCalgar wrote:Mmmmm...

I don´t want to sound in a misundestanding way but...

I don´t believe DrBored rumours...

We have been several months hearing Chaos vs DA... and all rumours and pics from GW tell us so.

Don´t see any Tau or Eldar on 2012

In total agreement. What I'd like to happen and what I believe will happen are two different things.
I think it'll Chaos > Dark Angels > Tau > Eldar or Eldar > Tau. And since GW only puts a 40k codex out once every 4-5 months I don't think we'll see any xenos till 2-2013 and summer 2013. The only saving grace is that this year is speeding by (for me at least). I can't believe we're half way through April already.

I admit I have not read all the posts in this thread, but Im curious how they know women like eldar best. Personally Ive never had to register as male or female when bying stuff.

Anyway, Eldar and DA sound more likely than two power armour armies (fluffwise, it dont sound like a solid combo though).
However, if they do go for CSM/DA on the other hand, they might throw in alot of scouts for the DA, and rumor has it we will se cultists and new plaguebearers in the starter box, so perhaps its not really two PA forces in the starter even with Chaos and DA.

Fayric wrote:rumor has it we will se ...new plaguebearers in the starter box

Prolly not

75hastings69 on Warseer 1/30/12 wrote:

Sedekiel wrote:Fingers crossed...DA's and CSM. What a nc starter this would be
The First, The Honored, The sons of the Lion...

Not "just" CSM

...

Garanaul the Black wrote:Demons too?

No

Darnock on Warseer 1/31/12 wrote:There are no plastic Plaguebearers in the 6th ed starterbox.

The plaguebearers was a incorrect/debunked Ghost 21 rumor

Ghost 21 on Warseer back in November 2011 wrote:if you want plastic plague bearers .. wait for the 6th ed starter

Oh, and remember Rideroftheerk? That crazy cat who leaked the "supposed" 6th edition rules set on BOK way back in June 2011 (long before the debunked Pankake Edition)...yeah, he was talking about DA vs Chaos back then as well. Though he predicted 2 starter sets.

Rideroftheerk on BOK wrote:two starter sets, each with rules, dices, movement markers, mission booklet, one with Dark Angels and fitting scenery, the other with Black Legion and Chaos scenery. You can combine both to play the campaign or use one set alone to play a selection of dumbed down scenarios against every other force, first starter set that comes with a model for a well established special character

Repeated again in 9-30-11

AesSedai on Warseer wrote:The boxed set for 6th with be Chaos versus Dark Angels.

straightsilver on Warseer wrote:There will be two versions of the starter set for the first time. Rather than the box containing two armies each will have one, so Dark Angels versions and a Traitor version. Each will have a selection of figures, but the extra space in the box will focus on scenery. So there will be a small Dark Angels force with a Dark Angels specific piece of scenery in one box, and a small Traitor force and Chaos specific scenery in the other.

I haven't heard recent rumors of 2 startersets, so I am betting that part was either false or the concept was later tossed by GW.

The Decapitator wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather GW put out 2 or 3 books a year that contain a great background, rules and a fantastic model line to support it rather than 7 or 8 books a year that are rushed and below par just to shorten the gap between book releases. Plus I don't think many people would be all that pleased if their army was updated twice every edition and that they had to fork out and buy a new codex which in reality wasn't much different from their current one and a couple of substandard new units.

Personally I favour an opposite opinion to this. The fluff and rules from a lot of the 5E codices have been subpar IMO (from a fluff and rules perspective) when you compare them with codices from earlier editions like 2nd/3rd. The current system is really terrible when you consider that it takes GW 5-10 years to update the rules for a faction (models are a completely different story when you consider things like the CSM Dread or the metal Deffkoptas that date back to Gorkamorka). Heck, this would be non issue if GW actually released balance update errata for their older factions (instead of only releasing errata for IoM).

I’m more inclined to believe Ian Sturrock’s post regarding the development process. Even still, when Privateer Press rolled out the Mark 2 rules for Warmachine, they were able to update and release an army book for all factions (full colour books with indepth fluff and rules) within a year or so as well as managing to release a steady wave of new models (and errata) for all factions (this was more or less the same thing for Hordes as well). GW is much bigger than PP and yet PP consistently outdoes GW when it comes to the release schedule.

Ian Sturrock wrote:True dat. I wrote the 256-page, rules-heavy, licensed Conan RPG, and supervised ten external playtest teams in a detailed, in-depth playtest, in 3 months. GW could have one person write and thoroughly test at least 6 codices a year. If they cared about testing rules.

How many multi-part models did you design, sculpt, cast, and then set for mass production in those three months? Each codex release is accompanied by new models. Therefore codex releases don't come as quickly as releases for RPGs.

Anyway, Eldar and DA sound more likely than two power armour armies (fluffwise, it dont sound like a solid combo though).
However, if they do go for CSM/DA on the other hand, they might throw in alot of scouts for the DA, and rumor has it we will se cultists and new plaguebearers in the starter box, so perhaps its not really two PA forces in the starter even with Chaos and DA.

Why is it so hard to believe that the two armies in a starter set could both be armies wearing power armor?

candy.man wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather GW put out 2 or 3 books a year that contain a great background, rules and a fantastic model line to support it rather than 7 or 8 books a year that are rushed and below par just to shorten the gap between book releases. Plus I don't think many people would be all that pleased if their army was updated twice every edition and that they had to fork out and buy a new codex which in reality wasn't much different from their current one and a couple of substandard new units.

Personally I favour an opposite opinion to this. The fluff and rules from a lot of the 5E codices have been subpar IMO (from a fluff and rules perspective) when you compare them with codices from earlier editions like 2nd/3rd. The current system is really terrible when you consider that it takes GW 5-10 years to update the rules for a faction (models are a completely different story when you consider things like the CSM Dread or the metal Deffkoptas that date back to Gorkamorka). Heck, this would be non issue if GW actually released balance update errata for their older factions (instead of only releasing errata for IoM).

I’m more inclined to believe Ian Sturrock’s post regarding the development process. Even still, when Privateer Press rolled out the Mark 2 rules for Warmachine, they were able to update and release an army book for all factions (full colour books with indepth fluff and rules) within a year or so as well as managing to release a steady wave of new models (and errata) for all factions (this was more or less the same thing for Hordes as well). GW is much bigger than PP and yet PP consistently outdoes GW when it comes to the release schedule.

Because GW is a poorly run company. If I am correct even despite much higher prices then other companies, GW grows less than 1% per year. Fat management pockets, bad business plan, poorly managed bank loans, not sure which is what.

Reality-Torrent wrote:
Because GW is a poorly run company. If I am correct even despite much higher prices then other companies, GW grows less than 1% per year. Fat management pockets, bad business plan, poorly managed bank loans, not sure which is what.

I think your confusing low, sustainable & sustained groth in a saturated market during the worst finacial crisis for 70 years with a poorly run company. I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence of a poorly run company over all. Yes they have made some poor choices, but then so dose every company, but the continue to grow, and are happy to keep everthing stable. Personaly I think allot of companys, where getting maximum groth at all costs is all that matters, and have then been stung over the last few years, could learn allot.

I see what your saying Electro but nothing you said explained the low growth compared to GW high prices. Their prices are higher then the competition though I am quite certain the competition haul in a greater growth. Though on the other hand the high prices might be the death-trap GW has snared for themselves. High prices = less customers.

Few customers paying allot per mini < Allot of customers paying less per mini

GW are, however, 80%-90% of their market. The higher costs? Personaly I see GW prices as roughly equivelent to PP prices. Although it is difficult to tell when they are not like for like.