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wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I read Stelek's comments on the new Eldar. He's pretty much right. Eldar is almost dead. The buffs do not balance the nerfs.

They are not unplayable but unwinnable in stronger tournaments.

Razgriz22 wrote:My apology, That was just what it seemed from what you were saying.

The only point I am trying to make is that we can't just throw Eldar in dumps just yet. There seems to be plenty of viable options in 6th for them to try and test.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And on the ranger/ pathfinder debate... I will be starting to take them in my list as a replacement for guardians that I had doing similar things. I dont think they are the most amaizng troop choice available, but when compared to guardians, the are gold. Now about the upgrade being worth it or not to pathfinders... thats a tough one. Is the scout, ignore difficult terrain, +2 on cover saves (shrouded is the new term i think?), and AP1 on 5-6 roll worth it? Im still on the fence over it. I think I'll play a few games with both and see if the extra 50 point is worth it else where or invested with the pathfinders.

Okay.

Pathfinders are still the way to go. Their damage output might be higher than in the 5th ed since we'll see more footslogging units. But watch out for cover-save ignoring weapons from deep striking or outflanking units, Whirlwind, or Thunder cannon.

Took rangers today - combined with doom, they were quite effective. Even in my second game vs. orks without doom, fairly effective. The combination of poorer cover saves and allocate + ap1 to wound on 6s is very powerful.

I can see taking the pathfinder upgrade.... sometimes. Larger units in larger games, i think it is worth it. When playing north of 1750, its probably a requirement, just so they can weather the generally stronger fire coming their way. But in 1000-1750, regular rangers are probably fine.

Area terrain + rangers is still a 2 up cover with go-to-ground.

Used pathfinders in a blob with Maugan Ra and Eldrad. Also Vibro cannons today.

In a fight with Tau after three turns of 90 percent of the tau army shooting at the snipestar... I lost one pathfinder, and one wound on Ra. Ra was in front soaking up most shots with his 2+ armor. Anything AP2 was looked out to the pathfinders with their 3+ cover. (I had no ruins to hide them in, just a bunch of rocks.)

The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.

Second game I played, my IG and Tau opponents were so worried about the vibro cannons they sat in the corners with all their tanks, pinned in and unable to really get at us. My team mate and I were really able to attack where we liked.

Thunderfrog wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I read Stelek's comments on the new Eldar. He's pretty much right. Eldar is almost dead. The buffs do not balance the nerfs.

They are not unplayable but unwinnable in stronger tournaments.

I guess Stelek was only responsible for the top part. The second assertion was your own.

By the way, I think even Stelek could approve of this unit.

Eldrad, Farseer with SS/RoWit/Fortune and Doom.

8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.

Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2


You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.

Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)

Getting this unit in combat is just curtains, even against terminators. 38 attacks that reroll misses and reroll failed 2's to wound and force the opponent ( Well, with a better than 4/7 chance to get this power and assuming they fail their 6+ deny the witch) to reroll successful saves?

Thats an average of 33 hits and about 6 dead termies, not counting Eldrads staff which ignores armor saves but isnt a power weapon.

Can someone please link this supposed post of Steleks that implies Eldar are now somewhat less then viable? I can't find anything newer then 2009 of his using the search function.

I'd love to see that on the table! How many points though for all that? Only problem I see is fast armies dodging around it. Granted they wouldnt be able to kill it, but be able to snag objectives faster. But still that unit is a walked ball of death.

836 points. I still have room for 2 aegis defense lines, rangers, FD in serpents, DA in serpents, and 2 fire prisms.

Thunderfrog wrote:

I'd love to see that on the table! How many points though for all that? Only problem I see is fast armies dodging around it. Granted they wouldnt be able to kill it, but be able to snag objectives faster. But still that unit is a walked ball of death.

836 points. I still have room for 2 aegis defense lines, rangers, FD in serpents, DA in serpents, and 2 fire prisms.

Now that seems like a solid list. I hope you get a chance t run it as I'd like to hear how it plays. My planned lists to try out are in the link in my sig. Let me know what you think about it. I hopefully will be trying one of them tomorrow if people show up to play at my local game store.

You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.

Well, I don't like this tactics. Footslogging is a slow way to die.

Stelek's comments are here: http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/07/eldar-6th-edition-primer/

wuestenfux wrote:

You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.

Well, I don't like this tactics. Footslogging is a slow way to die.

Stelek's comments are here: http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/07/eldar-6th-edition-primer/

Thanks. The USAF says I can't view that from work, so I'll check it out when I get home.

seapheonix wrote:
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.

You do know you can only get one glance per tank per shot for the whole battery right? You can't glance a tank twice with the same battery in a single turn.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

seapheonix wrote:
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.

You do know you can only get one glance per tank per shot for the whole battery right? You can't glance a tank twice with the same battery in a single turn.

That's really a sad story.

To be only a little inflammatory:

Avatar. Still crap. Missiles love you.

Eldrad. Still overpriced. If you really have a hard-on for Invisibility, sure grab Eldrad and hope you get it. I’ll take Divination Is Good On A Normal Farseer for 500, Alex.

Really? Stelek is an idiot. Eldrad was basically the codex's best buy for for all of 5th edition (trailed closely by suicide fire dragons), and he still is.

Stuff like this:

Having a Warlock with enhance is critical for Guardians. F*** the rest.

makes me wonder if he even read the codex.

Rangers. Yeah yeah, oooh cover saves! Precision! They still suck unless you bring a big unit

I have empirical evidence from a game yesterday that you don't need to spend 240 points to get rangers to work out.

And this:

Dark Reapers. Still crap. S5 AP3 means dick when you can just torrent marines to death.

The eldar codex has real trouble torrenting anyone to death, as the only unit which can really do it anymore are AV10 vehicles taking a HS slot.

And how you can say that about dark reapers and then say this about wraithlords:

Wraithlord. He’s missile bait and las/plas bait. Bring if you want to field some kind of MC list, but since you can’t ally with anyone with access to MC’s in any but 1 slot, kind of pointless.

I mean, this is pretty clearly the age of foot units. As in, those missle launchers are coming from dev squads. So in one sentence you poo-poo an eldar unit designed to take out MEQ from 48" away, and in the next sentence you s*** all over a unit because those same MEQ squads can kill it. Does he have any concept how warhammer even works?

Its pretty clear how this works. Stelek goes from memory, forms a bunch of off-the-cuff not-actually-tested and poorly thought out opinions, and posts them. Then a bunch of people take them as gospel despite the fact that no one has ever verified they are true. Wtf Ever.

Maybe I just really love Eldrad, OR MAYBE he is just damn good. I take offense to someone saying he is crap due to how much of a champ he is. Yea yea everyone has different experiences but come on, unless you choose to use him horribly.... he cant be bad. I played against space wolves and he and a group of guardians took on a pack of terminators and Logan himself. Yea I didnt want that to happen but I had no choice. Eldrad held them off almost single handed until reinforcements arrived. I've had people hate him so much that they spent the entire game trying to kill him and his unit focusing all firepower available to him with no avail. He just rocks and I will not believe anything but that.

Razgriz22 wrote:Maybe I just really love Eldrad, OR MAYBE he is just damn good. I take offense to someone saying he is crap due to how much of a champ he is. Yea yea everyone has different experiences but come on, unless you choose to use him horribly.... he cant be bad. I played against space wolves and he and a group of guardians took on a pack of terminators and Logan himself. Yea I didnt want that to happen but I had no choice. Eldrad held them off almost single handed until reinforcements arrived. I've had people hate him so much that they spent the entire game trying to kill him and his unit focusing all firepower available to him with no avail. He just rocks and I will not believe anything but that.

Yes, that is totally true Eldrad just owns, in 6th I think he will do so more then ever.

Oh lovely memories of that game in 5th where he would pass all his saves and live until the very last turn where he blew up a land raider on an objetive^^

I really can´t understand how some people don´t like him.

Thunderfrog wrote:

Eldrad, Farseer with SS/RoWit/Fortune and Doom.

8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.

Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2


You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.

Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)
.

to get 2 archons your base army would have to be DE as allied detachements can only have 1 HQ

Exergy wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:

Eldrad, Farseer with SS/RoWit/Fortune and Doom.

8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.

Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2


You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.

Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)
.

to get 2 archons your base army would have to be DE as allied detachements can only have 1 HQ

I humbly suggest you read the rulebook section on allies and the force org chart.

At 2000 points you can take a secondary allied detachment, doubling the numbers allowed. It must be from the same codex you already have allies from.

If he wants to argue his views on Dakka, let him do it himself. Stop trying to do it by-proxy.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

seapheonix wrote:
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.

You do know you can only get one glance per tank per shot for the whole battery right? You can't glance a tank twice with the same battery in a single turn.

It says a hit by a vibro cannon causes an auto glance... If the battery rolls two hits, why wouldn't that be two glances? Or another way to argue it. A single hit allows all three to contribute to the strength of the shot, why wouldn't all three contribute to the glances?

"Roll to hit, (firer does not need to pick a target) If any of the vibro cannon hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any line which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example a unit of three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 str6 hits.

A target with an armor value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armor penetration."

The second paragraph is simply telling you how to resolve a hit on a target with an armor value. Not how many times a battery hits. Another thing for the long list of FAQ's.

I don't actually see anywhere in the writing of the entry that would suggest it only causes one damage to a vehicle versus the numerous hits to a squad.

I personally am very excited about 6th edition and Eldar. Fast Skimmers an fire 2 weapons @ 12" (go Falcons and Vipers!), vehicle squads don't die from being immobilized (go Vipers, War Walkers), Large/Small Blast weapons hit anything under the template, no half strength for vehicles (go Fire Prism/Night Spinners/Tempest Launchers, etc).

I'm surprised no one's commented something awesome: Swooping Hawks destroy vehicles in assault. I mean, 1 Squad of 10 models gets an average of 6-7 hits, you'd be unlikely to roll more than two 1's on the armor penetration roll ... that means an average of 4-5 glancing hits. Ok, lets just auto kill any vehicle in the game if we can assault it.


................


My other personal musings are Vypers are better now (yay!). My once oft used EML/Shurken Cannon Vipers will probably be converted to dual Shuriken Cannon Vipers for 60 points apiece, that's great for move 12", get 6 s6 r24" shots. Also expect far more firepower, with always being able to take at least snapshots (So awesome!) if glanced.

Hammer of Wrath is neat, makes any Jump or Jetbike unit more dangerous for sure (Guardian Jetbikes enjoying the extra hit, as a seer council will, too). Eldar players may be converting some axes onto models to get that +1 S/Ap2 (though I guess most eldar entries say power sword, and the Faq didn't errata that).

seapheonix wrote:

"Roll to hit, (firer does not need to pick a target) If any of the vibro cannon hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any line which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example a unit of three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 str6 hits.

A target with an armor value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armor penetration."

The second paragraph is simply telling you how to resolve a hit on a target with an armor value. Not how many times a battery hits. Another thing for the long list of FAQ's.

I don't actually see anywhere in the writing of the entry that would suggest it only causes one damage to a vehicle versus the numerous hits to a squad.

You quoted it yourself. "Single glancing hit".

On the issue of Vibro Cannons...Notice how they specifically mention wether they are talking about vibro cannon (singular) and vibro cannon battery (plural) throughout the entire description of how Vibro Cannons work. Too many people don't bother to learn how to read english. If you read it with proper english it clearly states that you get a glancing hit for A (singular) vibro cannon hit.

It doesn't say if the Vibro Cannon Battery hits...it says if a Vibro Cannon hits. Therefore you get more than just one glancing hit vs vehicles if more than one cannon hits, just like you get one more strength for each vibro cannon in the battery. If they wanted to say you get on glancing hit for the whole battery then they would have put the word "battery" in there instead of the phrase " A vibro cannon" .

Apart from being 100% wrong, you insulted people's supposed inability to read and then yourself failed at the task.

"For example, a unit of 3 Vibro Cannons rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon..."

The reason it only talks about being hit by a single cannon is because only a single cannon in each battery actually causes the damage. You cannot physically cause 2 glancing hits on the same vehicle with a single Vibro Cannon battery, because there is only ever a single line per battery.

It wasn't an insult. It is an observation. If you take it as an insult that's your problem. And you saying I'm 100% wrong in this is only your opinion of how it works. It is no more valid an opinion than anyone elses on this forum including my own so don't go getting all high and mighty about it. You have no moral high ground.

Avatar 720 wrote:Apart from being 100% wrong, you insulted people's supposed inability to read and then yourself failed at the task.

"For example, a unit of 3 Vibro Cannons rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon..."

The reason it only talks about being hit by a single cannon is because only a single cannon in each battery actually causes the damage. You cannot physically cause 2 glancing hits on the same vehicle with a single Vibro Cannon battery, because there is only ever a single line per battery.

Oh, and if only one cannon in the battery is causing damage then why does the strength of the attack go up for each cannon in the battery. After all, your assertion that only one cannon is causing the damage would mean that it can only be a strength 4 hit....and that clearly isn't how it is described.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Oh, and if only one cannon in the battery is causing damage then why does the strength of the attack go up for each cannon in the battery. After all, your assertion that only one cannon is causing the damage would mean that it can only be a strength 4 hit....and that clearly isn't how it is described.

You get two bonus from having a battery rather than a single cannon
- +1 to strength for each cannon
- increased survivability (more than 1 cannon to kill)

Think of it as the cannons "combine fire" like a Prism Cannon. It doesn't make sense in terms of "fluff" but it IS the RAW

As such you DO NOT get the following bonus
- multiple glancing hits from one battery

Passively increasing the strength =/= Causing damage.

GK Psyker Henchmen get +1 to the strength of their psychic attack for every psyker in the squad, and yet there is only a single attack being made; by your logic there should be an equal number of attacks to psykers in the squad.

Also, what about Fire Prism cannon links? If another Prism links and increases the strength and AP of another, then why are they not getting two blasts?

severedblue wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Oh, and if only one cannon in the battery is causing damage then why does the strength of the attack go up for each cannon in the battery. After all, your assertion that only one cannon is causing the damage would mean that it can only be a strength 4 hit....and that clearly isn't how it is described.

You get two bonus from having a battery rather than a single cannon
- +1 to strength for each cannon
- increased survivability (more than 1 cannon to kill)

Think of it as the cannons "combine fire" like a Prism Cannon. It doesn't make sense in terms of "fluff" but it IS the RAW

As such you DO NOT get the following bonus
- multiple glancing hits from one battery

Yeah, I understand the way you are reading it. But until GW actually comes out with a FAQ on the subject than it will always be up for debate, simply because it does say "A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon (notice it does not say vibro cannon battery here, it says vibro cannon) always suffers a single glancing hit."

That one line says "A" vibro cannon. In the entire description they are careful enough to differentiate between the battery and single cannons. Even when talking about the strength of a hit. Why all of a sudden would it change when talking about vehicles? It doesn't. People are just wishful thinking.

As a side note Vibro Cannon batteries in the old Epic Space Marine game were so powerful that they could topple titans in one round of shooting. They could bring down buildings by just shooting at them too.

No, it will never be up for debate. Since there is only a single line per battery, there can only ever be a single glancing hit per battery.

This is what you are either ignoring, or failing to grasp.