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2014/08/08 21:52:20
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
A decent TAC list but other than Centurions, what's bad about this? At 1850 I'd match my TyraKnights against that willingly.
I play mostly Maelstrom these days, and regularly get beat by similar lists. There is good speed, and lots of scoring units. My Flying Circus TAC list can sometimes table them, but if I fail to do so, I'm getting outscored in a big way.
The Centurions which will end up joined to the ICs with Invisibility and Gate, and both easily castable with a ton of psychic dice strike me as a unit that I would have a really hard time killing in 5 turns to table this list.
I could definitely beat it if playing Eternal war or some Eternal war derivative.
2014/08/09 02:13:12
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
We have four magnetized - we've just built a smaller (as in fitting in two cases) army and it's worked pretty well. It's much easier with the modern plastic bodies, as the wings fit onto them snugly and there's no leverage. I use a 5 x 5mm magnet in the body, and a 5 x 3mm magnet in each wing.
Are you using rectangular magnets, or just really deep ones?
Is there a difference between 1 5mm round 3mm deep and 3 5mm round 1mm deep?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone tell me what size base a Malanthrope is on? Is it Warrior / Zoey size or Carnifex / Tyrant size?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/09 02:17:52
2014/08/09 13:41:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I could drop the spine bank fex, adrenal glands on the other two, and get a Dima in there. I want my Four tyrants alive and well, and hes a bullet magnet. The odds of running in to DP armies are high, and if I can have him in my backfield turn 1 they wont like him assaulting.
The problems I have with this is that the model is terrible and is strictly CC, I lose a lot of firepower. But if he gets focused down turn 1 it leaves the other two fexes and flyrants shooting in tact.
You need something to bubble wrap the Fexes as they advance with the Malanthrope. Because they have A.G., and you don't want them to be slowed by the bubble wrap, I suggest Hormagaunts (Fleet, +3 run) or Gargoyles. In this case, I would drop 2 Swarms of Rippers for 2 Broods of Hormagaunts. To accomplish this I would drop A.G. from one of the Carnifexes or Drop the Mawloc. Also, one extra Gaunt is worth more than spine banks. It is good to have sacrificial gribbles to each overwatch or to assault an enemy squad to make the bunch up for your Mawloc. Bringing a Mawloc in over an ongoing assault is great.
I wouldn't add a Dima, because it simplifies target priority too much. If I fear super super-assault, I kill the Dima. If I fear Dakka, I kill the dakkfexes. If you did want to run the Dima, you could drop all of your Dakkafexes for it.
The other thing you could do is drop the spine bank Carnifex for an Exocrine to give you a bit more diversity.
2014/08/10 09:52:20
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I haven't really done much to him yet, besides to glue on some legs from an old action figure of mine. Now need to figure out how to convert the rest.
This picture is more to show the size and scale of the dima compared to some of the other models.
That is interesting. I had been looking at putting a Tervigon's legs on a Tyrant to convert mine. Is the body more Trygon sized? Isn't the base supposed to be 60 mm, aka Tyrant sized?
2014/08/10 16:30:35
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Iechine wrote: Ive got about an hour and a half to decide what to take to a local 1500pt tourny. Im stuck with 1 force org and no allies because Tyranids.
Flyrant w/devs Electro
Flyrant w/devs Electro
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope (Or venom, or ripper swarm)
Ripper w/ds
ripper w/ds
ripper w/ds
2x Carnifex w/Devs 2x Carnifex w/Devs Mawloc
Im just hoping I can get Master of ambush. As you can see, Im not sure what to do with the 50 pts...the extra synapse in a synapse thin list can ensure my big gun boat carnifex broods dont stop shooting, but more cover is nice as well. Also being able to grab objectives with the ripper brood is helpful, as this will be all book missions (Which sucks).
Good list. It would be better if you dropped 2 Rippers for 1 Unit of HGaunts, and 1 Unit of TGaunts. Use them to bubblewrap the Carnifexes and Venom as they advance. I would keep the 2nd Zoey. Without it, your Carnifexes are likely to take alot of instinctive behavior tests.
2014/08/10 18:26:32
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I ran proxying 2 Dimas in a game yesterday. I was running a nidzilla list against MSU space wolves using BAO mission #1. The Dimas won every combat they got into. One did some damage to a Land Raider, but a dakkafex was needed to kill it. I did make use of the leap rule several times. Allowing me to get shorter charges or in one case leaping over a small squad to get a charge on the squad behind them controlling the objective.
So my 400 points of Dimas killed roughly 200 points of marines and Rhinos. Every other MC did better except for the Tervigon who only manage to kill 4 marines, and strip 2 HP off a Rhino. Both Dimas died like other MCs. One failed a 5" charge with fleet. Delightful.
Overall, the Dimas were an utter failure in this game. I got outscored, and nearly tabled, because the faster wolves were able to generally stay away from the Dimas until they could kill them. Nearly every turn there was one Dima who just ran, and was unable to contribute in any other way. They were the last units my opponents killed (my flyrant wasn't really killable) because they were the least threatening.
At no point was I glad I brought a Dima. At every point in the game, a Dakkafex, TFex or Exocrine would have out performed them. Even a Stone-Crusher might have been better because at least it is a little harder to kill with plasma. I had pretty low expectations, and they failed to even meet those.
If we had used straight up Maelstrom missions, the Dimas would have done better, but I still have a hard time justifying bringing them over a dakkafex.
I'll run another game with the nidzilla list against a different list, and also will give JY2's Flying circus + Dima Lists a shot at some point.
2014/08/11 20:38:36
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
tag8833 wrote: I ran proxying 2 Dimas in a game yesterday.
Spoiler:
I was running a nidzilla list against MSU space wolves using BAO mission #1. The Dimas won every combat they got into. One did some damage to a Land Raider, but a dakkafex was needed to kill it. I did make use of the leap rule several times. Allowing me to get shorter charges or in one case leaping over a small squad to get a charge on the squad behind them controlling the objective.
So my 400 points of Dimas killed roughly 200 points of marines and Rhinos. Every other MC did better except for the Tervigon who only manage to kill 4 marines, and strip 2 HP off a Rhino. Both Dimas died like other MCs. One failed a 5" charge with fleet. Delightful.
Overall, the Dimas were an utter failure in this game. I got outscored, and nearly tabled, because the faster wolves were able to generally stay away from the Dimas until they could kill them. Nearly every turn there was one Dima who just ran, and was unable to contribute in any other way. They were the last units my opponents killed (my flyrant wasn't really killable) because they were the least threatening.
At no point was I glad I brought a Dima. At every point in the game, a Dakkafex, TFex or Exocrine would have out performed them. Even a Stone-Crusher might have been better because at least it is a little harder to kill with plasma. I had pretty low expectations, and they failed to even meet those.
If we had used straight up Maelstrom missions, the Dimas would have done better, but I still have a hard time justifying bringing them over a dakkafex.
I'll run another game with the nidzilla list against a different list, and also will give JY2's Flying circus + Dima Lists a shot at some point.
Yeah, the performance of your dimas is to be expected, especially against MSU marines. More often than not, they'll probably not kill back enough units to justify their costs. Then again, it really depends on the army you go up against. Against more Elitist armies, they have a better chance to make back their points and then some. You get them into combat against riptides, wraithknights, leman russ squadrons and some of the more expensive units and you will see them pull their weight. But against non-Elitist armies, you will see performance such as this as they kill 1 rhino and perhaps a combat squad before dying.
But that is not their true worth. Their true value is in area-denial and also in letting the rest of your army live a little longer and to do more damage. If you are running dakkafexes and dakkarants, then that's a lot of additional damage you will be dishing out each turn.
Also, you can expect this type of result between a ground-&-pound Tyranid list against any mobile, shooty army. If they have the ability to get away and keep on shooting, then bugs are going to have a hard time. But I guarantee you that if you ran the dimas supported by flyrants instead, you will have an easier time, especially against the more mobile armies.
I Tried to use them as area denial, but the mission made that very difficult because there was very little incentive for my opponent to do much besides evade my MC's and hang out along the board edges. I was disappointed with the BOA mission design because of how heavily it favored gun line style armies over area control style armies.
All of that being said, if I dropped the 2 Dimas for 2 Dakkafexes, and played that game at a 100 point disadvantage, I would have won that game. MSU-marines aren't that bad of a matchup for tyranids. Just a really bad machup for low-mobility assault only units. The dakkafex has 18" shooting making it much harder to avoid, and it is still powerful in assault. It suffers from a lack of range and mobility just like the Dima, but has an actual way to contribute to the game other than dying.
I'm not sure I really understand your bullet magnet argument. 1) they were the last MC's to die (besides my flyrant who was airborne). 2) If I ran Dakkafexes instead they are shooting at my dakkafexes instead, but so what. A Dakkafex is 2/3 as tough as a Dima and 2/3 the cost. So isn't a Dakkafex a better bullet magnet?
I'm still incredibly doubtful that they will ever make it to assault against Riptides, Wraith Knights, or Lemun Russes (though this is easier). Besides incompetence, why would a player with one of those things allow this to happen? All 3 of those units are faster, and can force a turn 3 or later charge. All 3 come from armies that can easily kill a Dima with shooting (I.G. sometimes has a harder time). So why wouldn't they kill dakkafexes, dakkaflyrants or support units on turn 1 & 2, and then the Dima on turn 3?
I will play them against a 2-3 wraith knight army eventually (likely alongside Endless Swarm).
I'm not even going to try bringing them against Riptides. I don't need to play that game to know the result. I lose big. Here's the batrep. Turn 1, A flyrant and another MC dies, I kill 4-5 marker lights. Turn 2, A 2nd flyrant, and a Dima dies possibly another MC, I kill 1-2 Suites. Turn 3, The last Dima dies and any remaining MC's I kill 6-10 fire warriors. Tau wins.
2014/08/12 00:14:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I think it will be a fair test of your proposed Dima usage. It would probably have beat the Space Wolves and their complete lack of AA, but I'll run it against Wave Serpents or something.
2014/08/12 04:22:27
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Iechine wrote: Ive got a tourny practice game on Thursday against a tailored Dark Eldar list so I can fight a hard counter to my list. Double CAD and FW allowed. Im going to try what everyone has suggested with my list and drop some AG's for a ten termagant screen.
Im expecting a pretty much all bike and venom list, but I know he isnt taking a knight or eldar ally. This list is not likely to be encountered at an event like Mechanicon, but its also a traditional tough matchup and Im not sure that Ive ever take on DE and won.
Really good list. I approve. If you wanted to you could drop the non-DS rippers, and upgrade the Mawloc to an Exocrine. The Extra 10 points could upgrade the TGaunts to HGaunts which are a better screener, because the units they are screening don't catch them.
Another approach would be to drop something for a Bastion with a Void Shield and barricades which would help you out alot vs white scars.
2014/08/12 13:05:29
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I think it will be a fair test of your proposed Dima usage. It would probably have beat the Space Wolves and their complete lack of AA, but I'll run it against Wave Serpents or something.
No worries about the flyrants. 3 is actually plenty against all but the most extreme of armies.
My only recommendation is that I probably wouldn't take 2 crones. They are no longer the threat that they used to be, both in shooting and assault. I'd recommend swapping one out for gargoyles or a dakkafex or a mawloc. Just 1 crone is good enough as a distraction unit, because they are pretty much going to be ignored by most experienced opponents unless your opponent is running infantry with 4+ saves or worse.
Crones are useful against mech as well. And they can keep up with flyrants better than Dakkafexes, and are more survivable. I was worried that dropping a Crone for a Dakkafex would turn this into an army that threatened in waves. Turn one: Flyrants. Turn two: Dakkafex. Turn three: Dima, and thus my opponent's target priority is simplified.
At some point I'm going to run the Dima against Drop Pod marines and show what they are really capable of. But I've been beating up on the best Drop Pod player I know for the last 6-7 games so I've got to tank one against him (Hive Guard and Lictors) or else he won't feel good about playing me. A similar situation with the Best Ork player I know. My plan there is to run flying circus, but let him know ahead of time and he can bring out the Tractor guns.
2014/08/12 20:13:54
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
jy2 wrote: Gargoyles are fast enough that they are a threat to pin down units, thus allowing the dimas to try to make it into combat. And with 5+ shrouded cover even in the open (or 3+ cover behind my flyrants), gargoyles can be quite sturdy also.
Gargoyles are outstanding. Great screening unit to keep MC's alive. Great tarpit thanks to blind, and their speed. They can also be fast / Maneuverable enough to put the 1st couple in cover, and conga line the back one or two to get shrouded from a venom / Malan. They are a force-multiplier because not only do the increase the survivability of the rest of your army by screening them but they can also further increase it by charging things that threaten them (like a command squad with plasma, or a Wraith Knight, or a Riptide).
Next to Flyrants, Gargoyles have won me more games than any other unit. A group of 20 are in nearly all of my lists.
2014/08/13 22:55:20
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Last time I played Nids was late 5th... Mawlocs are good? That's AWESOME! I love the model!
Well... they are cheaper and better.... I still don't think they are 'good'. Or rather, their potential is niche depending on the opponent army, and their performance is random/unreliable.
IOW, its a gamble unit.
If the opponent has good targets, and you roll well, they can be *awesome*, but otherwise, they can end up pretty 'meh'....
I second this. They are an MC with great mobility, but their penchant to be scatter and be utterly useless had led me to drift away from them in TAC lists. If I'm facing Tau, Mawlocs are in.
Another common TAC list involves living Artillery:
Spoiler:
3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler)
Exocrine
3 Biovores
All weapons gain pinning and blasts / barrages are twin linked.
I think we can all agree that the Dakkaflyrant is the best unit in the codex by a mile, and any list including 2 of those can do ok against many matchups.
2014/08/14 02:41:29
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: Mawloc is great and never wasted points. He really barely even pays for that blast, he's one of the best units in the codex.
I would disagree that Flyrant is one of the best units in the codex. He's the best SYNAPSE unit and most list need 2 (although not all). However he's really expensive and crippling to a build when taking more than the minimum necessary to make it work. I think far too many people rely too much on Flyrants I think 4 is almost a suicide note unless you are running it next to max Crones for an airforce style list.
Surely you've had a Mawloc who mishapped and died. I find that about 1/3 scatter when the come in (hitting 0-3 models), and are kill in my opponent's next turn before they can do anything.
This is probably a bit atypical, because I mainly use Mawlocs against Tau these days, and Tau can easily kill 3 MC's per shooting phase, they have few models, and like to hug the board edge. I'm betting that Mawlocs only make their points back 1/5 games for me, but they do score points because of their great mobility, and they are a deterrent that alters the way my opponent plays the game, which can be highly useful.
I think of all units in the Tyranid codex, Mawloc's took the biggest nerf from Smash. In 6th, Mawlocs popped as many vehicles as any other unit I fielded. In 7th they need 2 assaults to pop a Rhino.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 02:49:26
2014/08/14 12:45:41
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
gigasnail wrote: i thought that at first too (ref: smash nerf) but really, i think it effected them the least. things that you need S10 for were bad targets for them to begin with. let them stay and slaughter infantry and the occasional light vehicle, which they excel at.
also def. a proponent of multiple mawlocks to get the best out of them/deter the random.
They used to get 3 Attacks when they Smashed. Giving up 1 attack to let them pop AV14 made them a very, very effective anti-armor unit. Plus they could catch vehicles, because of their mobility advantage. But a key thing that I noted. They used to be able to pop rhinos reliably. Now they need 2 assaults to have a chance. Lemun Russes need 3 charges to kill one.
SHUPPET wrote: They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA.
Add even more heavy support that can't pop a rhino. Your meta must be different than mine, because there is no way I could cede 2 heavy support slots to units that can't pop a vehicle and expect to win games.
SHUPPET wrote: they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.
10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.
2014/08/14 15:32:54
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
tag8833 wrote: 10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.
None of which can do what a Mawloc does.
The Exocrine does AP:2 better. The Crone does Mobility better, the Biovores do anti-infantry better, the Dakkafex does everything but mobility better, the Gargoyles do Tarpitting and mobility better.
Iechine wrote: Another thing Ive come to understand is 1)AV14 is not a big deal 2)When I have encountered LR, its electroshock grubs that handle it in 2 turns. When an opponent brings that I am usually ignoring that unit to focus on other things anyway, and Ive never had the 'oh no I cant deal with that unit!' feeling.
AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.
However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.
2014/08/14 17:04:59
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Eldercaveman wrote: Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!
Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.
I played Necrons on Tuesday. He is a relatively new player, and his list was not optimized yet, so I ran a list with a similar power level.
The game was hammer and anvil, so I infiltrated 20 genestealers into midfield terrain, and conga lined them back to my venomthrope. His first shooting attack at my screening gargoyles with a tesla annihilation barge proceeded to Arc 6 times, most notably to the Genestealers which killed 3 Congalined units and took them out of the Shrouded bubble. It also arced to my other screening units (Hormagaunts), killed 2, and took them out of range of shrouded. The rest of his army took my Genestealers down to 2 models, and killed the rest of my gaunts. My turn 1, I was mostly out of range. My Crone killed 4 Warriors. His turn two, his monolith deep struck right in the middle of all my units, and ate my venomthrope when the venom failed its Strength test. From that point on, I was hemoraging firepower at an alarming rate, and not doing much damage to him until I made assaults (which is damn hard against vehicles that move 36")
I was able to eventually Pen the Barges with my Crone, and Zoeys, And turn 3 I managed to assault most of his infantry and kill his warlord. We had to call the game at the Bottom of 4, and neither of us had much left, but those annihilation barges are so powerful, and Ghost Arks are hard to deal with. I remain terrified of Necrons.
2014/08/14 18:39:46
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Iechine wrote: I just mainly run lists where the loss of synapse has very little effect. The IB table is my least favorite part of the book, its such a kick in the groin.
Instinctive Behavior and Mob Rule for Orks are fundamental failure in rules writing. 1) They require you to look up rules in the middle of a game. 2) the results are never good. 3) They make playing the army frustrating. 4) The leave lingering negative feelings about games you loose.
There is no way that these rules add to the fun of the game. They may shift the meta away from hoards which seem to be a strong effort by GW, but they do so as a cost to fun that is simply not worth it, and could have been done in other ways much cheaper and easier. It is a greater sin than Serpent Shields, Shadows of the Warp, Riptides, Eldar/Tau double moves, Heldrakes, Annihilation Barges, or Buffmander. I fear that GW fundamentally disagrees with me, or else they wouldn't have written Mob Rule after the way the community responded to Instinctive Behavior.
2014/08/15 02:45:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.
Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.
As I said, we must play in a far different meta. If I see 1 Rhino, I'm usually seeing 6 Rhinos + 2 Razorbacks and a Land Raider. No soft targets at all. I rarely see marine bikes, and when I do, Dakka Flyrants, and Dakka Fexes have no problem dealing with them. I've only seen centurions on the table once (in 6th). I manage to kill them with an assaulting flyrant. When I do see a good target for a Mawloc (say devastators or longfangs), they are always on the upper level of terrain. The only large groups of infantry I see are orks, Necrons, and Guard. All of which die to a Crone or TFex just as easily as a Mawloc, and the Orks and Guard are an assault threat for the Mawloc. The only time I see Terminators, they have storm shields.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/15 02:46:03
2014/08/15 13:11:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.
Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.
We'll with this undeniable well reasoned logic, I don't know why I ever thought otherwise!
Mind doing the stats of 240 pts of Haywire HG firing at a LandRaider, compared to a Flyrant firing Warp Lance and eGrubs for the same price?
This isn't really something that you can run stats on. 1/3 chance to roll a hit on the scatter dice, but the distance scattered and direction make it hard to compute hits. If it hits, it will glance 67% of the time and Pen 17% of the time with a 0% chance to explode. Meanwhile a flyrant is never going to forfeit its Devourers fro E.Grubs without hitting at lease 2 vehicles, or 1 Vehicle and 4 marines. Warp lance's success depends on your psychic dice which are random. Assuming it goes off and is not denied it is going to Glance 2/3 * 1/6 or 11% of the time and Pen 2/3 * 4/6 or 44% of the time. 1/6 pens will be an explodes.
The reason Haywire hive guard suck:
1) Over costed. 3 Cost more than a Dakkafex who is more effective in assault against AV 13+ than they are in shooting
2) Unitasker. good at popping AV 13+. Worse than normal hive guard against everything else.
3) One shot per. That mean statistically 1 hit, and 2 scatters in a group of 3. At least one of those scatters is usually going to miss, so they can't pop an average vehicle in one round of shooting.
4) Short Range. 18" means vehicles can avoid them, and they usually have to run turn 1. For a total of 4 turns of maximum contribution with 2 turns per vehicle their top end game performance is about 2 vehicles.
5) Don't ignore cover. Vehicles can still take cover saves against them. This coupled with poor mobility will allow a good player to negate 1/2 of their hits.
6) Require Line Sight. They have to stand out in the open and take return fire to contribute in any way.
While some of the lesser units in the Tyranid codex are situationally useful, (Trygon Prime, Lictors, Genestealers, Warriors, Impaler Cannon Hive Guard), I can't summon to mind a situation where haywire Hive guard are better than normal hive guard. I've played against a 3 land raider list on several occasions, and I'm winning most of those games, and Haywire Hive Guard would make a victory harder. If they had made them Assault 2, ignore cover, then Haywire Hive guard might be useful, or maybe made it a 36" large blast. But with their current stats, no thanks.
2014/08/15 16:34:07
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Ratius wrote: Guys do you think this list would work? The idea is a deepstrike based theme.
1500 roughly
Tyrant with wings, AG and dev + hive commander
Deathleaper
Lictor
Lictor
Tervigon (outflanking)
30 gants
20 Gargoyles
4 Raveners with devs with Red Terror
3 Raveners with devs
Mawloc
Mawloc
This list doesn't really work because there isn't near enough Synapse. A good rule of thumb is 1 Synapse per 500 points. All you have is the Tervigon, and that is simply not enough. On the plus side, if you change the Raveners to Shrikes, you might be ok. It isn't a high powered list, but it might be functional. Your main problem is keeping the gants from running off the board when they fail synapse. I have a really, really successful (12-0-1) fast 1500 point list that I built based on Ductvader's Turn Two Tsunami list, and it has some similar models, so you might like it:
Spoiler:
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Venom -> You might replace replace all the Elites with 2 Malenthropes and drop a Ravener to free up the points
Zoey
Zoey
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
I ran the following list on saturday against Eldar.
Spoiler:
Nidzilla Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
He tends to run Wraith Themed lists, but his list looked something like this:
Spoiler:
Gunline Eldar Farseer
Farseer
5 Wraith Guard in a Waveserpent (Scatter Lasers, Surican Catapult, Holo Fields, Crystal Targetting Matrix, Vectored Engines)
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
10 Swooping Hawks
10 Warp Spiders
10 Warp Spiders
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
It was vanguard deployment. I got master of Ambush, and thought long and hard about if I should infiltrate the Dimas or the Carnifexes. I ended up going with the Carnifexes as they give me a much, much more powerful alpha strike, and I had 1st turn.
On my first turn the Carnifexes killed 5 of the 6 artillery pieces, and one critical Guardian which took his warlord (manning the quad gun) out of coherence, and allowed my Flyrant to kill him. He rolled really poorly on his turn 2, and I only lost a few gargoyles, and the game went down hill for him from there. He conceded on turn 4.
The Dimas were clear under performers. They contributed nearly nothing. One spent the entire game running, because my shooting completely wiped out one flank. The other one failed a 6" charge (with fleet), and then made a charge and killed 5 jetbikes. Meanwhile, the Tervigon also failed a short charge and Kill 5 Jetbikes, and spawned 17 Gaunts.
No matter how low my expectations for the Dima's are, they still fail to meet them. Perhaps if I had infiltrated them instead, it would have been a different story. I'm still going to run them against a wraith themed list eventually, and I'll give JY2's flying circus with Dima's a shot as well, but my answer to your question, is yes, I've proxied them in 3 games so far. They failed to affect the outcome of any of the games in which they participated, and failed to make back 1/2 of their points in each game. They are not a useful unit; lacking speed and shooting, and reliability, and because my Meta is dominated by gunlines, I will not be purchasing the model.
2014/08/19 12:39:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
I ran the following list on saturday against Eldar.
[spoiler]Nidzilla Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
He tends to run Wraith Themed lists, but his list looked something like this:
Spoiler:
Gunline Eldar Farseer
Farseer
5 Wraith Guard in a Waveserpent (Scatter Lasers, Surican Catapult, Holo Fields, Crystal Targetting Matrix, Vectored Engines)
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
10 Swooping Hawks
10 Warp Spiders
10 Warp Spiders
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
It was vanguard deployment. I got master of Ambush, and thought long and hard about if I should infiltrate the Dimas or the Carnifexes. I ended up going with the Carnifexes as they give me a much, much more powerful alpha strike, and I had 1st turn.
On my first turn the Carnifexes killed 5 of the 6 artillery pieces, and one critical Guardian which took his warlord (manning the quad gun) out of coherence, and allowed my Flyrant to kill him. He rolled really poorly on his turn 2, and I only lost a few gargoyles, and the game went down hill for him from there. He conceded on turn 4.
The Dimas were clear under performers. They contributed nearly nothing. One spent the entire game running, because my shooting completely wiped out one flank. The other one failed a 6" charge (with fleet), and then made a charge and killed 5 jetbikes. Meanwhile, the Tervigon also failed a short charge and Kill 5 Jetbikes, and spawned 17 Gaunts.
No matter how low my expectations for the Dima's are, they still fail to meet them. Perhaps if I had infiltrated them instead, it would have been a different story. I'm still going to run them against a wraith themed list eventually, and I'll give JY2's flying circus with Dima's a shot as well, but my answer to your question, is yes, I've proxied them in 3 games so far. They failed to affect the outcome of any of the games in which they participated, and failed to make back 1/2 of their points in each game. They are not a useful unit; lacking speed and shooting, and reliability, and because my Meta is dominated by gunlines, I will not be purchasing the model.
[/spoiler]Did the Dimas underperform, or did you just over-perform with your Fexes? Kinda seems like they took out the vast majority and left scraps for everyone else.
You make a fair point. My Carnifexes Killed a ton of stuff. My Exocrine essentially made his points back, and got unlucky dying to warp spider overwatch. My Tervigon Made his points between killing 5 jet bikes and spawning 17 gants who did some stuff. My Flyrant was unkillable. Turn 1 he lost 3 hit points, he lasted for 3 turns on 1 hit point despite being shot at twice by a quad gun, and twice by a wave serpent, and once by 5 Wraith Guard. But he was trying that whole time to kill the wave serpent and failed. His main contribution was killing the warlord, and a psychic scream that hit wraith guard and Swooping Hawks, and my opponent rolled Box Cars twice which was epic.
Based on the lists and deployment, the Dima was bound to under perform. The only thing I thought they might contribute is smash the warp spiders. Unfortunately, 1 group of warp spiders never came in, and the other one knew to fear the Dima, so they came in on a flank and used their bonus moves to get far out of charge range from anything but the exocrine which they tried to kill.
This was a bad matchup for the Dima, but the reason he is not a useful unit is that there are many, many bad matchups for him. He is probably situationally useful (Orks?, Drop Pod Marines?). The only time he is going to shine is when you have an opponent that wants to close with you.
There is a demon player that runs 2 Great unclean ones, and 9 beasts of Nurgle. I'll run a Dima list against him eventually.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 15:41:34
2014/08/19 15:37:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
This was a bad matchup for the Dima, but the reason he is not a useful unit is that there are many, many bad matchups for him. He is probably situationally useful (Orks?, Drop Pod Marines?). The only time he is going to shine is when you have an opponent that wants to close with you.
Which should be a 100% of Maelstrom games, no?
My game against eldar was 100% Maelstrom. That is the only reason the Dimas killed anything at all. Jet Bikes were flying around claiming objectives.
2014/08/19 17:39:10
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Addaran wrote: Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?
I'm selling a collection for a retiring player right now that included 2 metal Pyrovores. The first one sold for $35. The current one has a $10 bid on it. He was using it as a "Counts as" Biovore, and they look really similar.
2014/08/19 19:01:06
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
syypher wrote: Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Point for point, Gargoyles are a much better tarpit. Perhaps 3 times as good. I think Shuppet was being a bit hyperbolic, and discounting gargoyles because they die easier to shooting.
syypher wrote: Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
There are three Tyranid dataslates. They each include 5 Tyranid formations. The formations break down something like this:
2014/08/20 12:48:41
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
ductvader wrote: Has anyone actually played the lictor forest brood?
IF...your opponent cannot ignore cover, they're ridiculous. I made my opponent fire half their army into it and then still had enough lictors alive to roll a unit or two in combat.
And Deathleaper's Assassin's Brood is moderate.
Synaptic Swarm is not "very weak"
Where did all of these "ratings" come from?
The ratings came from the Top of my head, and I haven't used Lictor Forest brood yet. I have 2 Lictors, but will be ordering deathleaper and 3 more next month, so I will give it a shot eventually.
Deathleaper's assassin brood took a serious nerf from 7th. I figured that dropped its usefulness enough to drop it from moderate to weak.
As far as Synaptic Swarm. Perhaps it should have been "weak" instead of very weak. It requires you to take a lot of models that you would not otherwise take, and gives you limited benifit for doing so. It was unclear to me what list it would work well in. Perhaps large point lists that need extra synapse, or multiple formation lists for Endless Swarm. Perhaps you could share a list with Synaptic Swarm that you think would work well.
ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 12:54:55
2014/08/20 13:18:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
ductvader wrote: ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.
People don't feel bad taking advantage of rules involving terrain when they can (such as placing units on the 2nd story of a ruin so our Mawlocs can't hurt them) so I wouldn't worry so much about throwing a forest or two on the table. If you're REALLY worried about negative perception...start playing with forests a few games BEFORE fielding the lector forest brood. It won't feel so obvious...
My only issue is I don't have enough Lictor models...I like, in theory, both the Forest Brood and the Deathleaper Assassin Squad.
If someone added a multi-level terrain because he was bringing Devastators, and feared I might have a Mawloc, I would be pissed. Picking Terrain for advantage seems wrong.
2014/08/20 15:45:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.
A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.
I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.
Pretty much what pinecone said. The Garg might actually be the better all round tarpit in a vacuum where we just look at what tarp it's the best, in practice though the Mawloc fulfills so much more utlity and threat power that I feel it's the better tarpit. Then taking into account competitive nids really has nothing but the minimum amount of infantry, taking a 20+ Garg blob is going to die much easier than everything and just gives a really cost effective target for flames or other dedicated anti-infantry, that would otherwise be wasted on MCs. Mawloc being the most cost effective MC in your army to shoot at, it's no hyperbole when I say Mawloc is the better tarpit unit, the logic behind it is just rather a bit indirectly related to the differences between the models, but hopefully this helps clear up my standpoint on it as this May not all apply to you, and if it doesn't than it's quite possible Gargoyles are the unit you are looking for in your build! Use your better judgement (Mawlocs are great though )
List some units that you are likely to tarpit and I will run the stats, and we can use math to settle it.
Here are some units I regularly tarpit.
Riptide
Broadsides (3 man squad)
Devastators (5 man Squad)
Wraith Knight
Crisis Suites (3 Man squad)
Long Fangs (5 man squad)
Marine Command Squads (5 man squad)
Marine Command Squad with Vulkan
Marine Command Squad with Chapter Master
Broadsides with Buffmander
Sternguard (10 Man Squad)
Thunderfire Cannon
Dreadnought
Ironclad Deradnought
Librarian Dreadnoughts
Obliterators
Defilers (or other CSM Walkers)
War Walkers
Automatically Appended Next Post:
syypher wrote: Thanks everyone for helping me with whats in and out of Tyranids now. (For those of you just tuning in I loved playing Nids but the last time I really played 40k Nids was 5e)
I got a few more questions...
1) The Hive Crone... is it usually taken for the Haywire? That's it's main purpose right? And it's also a FMC for awesomeness? Does anyone take Harpies?
Haywire is not the main reason to take the Crone. It is S8 AP2 vector strike, and S6 AP4 Flame template. I ran a game with 2 Crones last night. I only fired 3 of the 8 Haywire missiles all game, and one was in overwatch against a charging Marine character.
syypher wrote: 2) How are Genestealer Broods now a days? I LOVED running them in a congo line back to something that gave them cover back in 5th. They tore ANYTHING I threw them at up! I didn't have too much a hard time getting them into CC but with all the changes and insane weight of fire power across the board now... it seems more impossible.
Genestealers are not a good unit. They cost way, way too much. They die to a stiff wind, and are too slow to be all that useful as an assault unit. If you want to use them, take a large squad (15-20). Infiltrate it into a ruins midfield and conga-line it back to your deployment zone so that they get Shrouded from a venomthrope, and watch out for flamers.
syypher wrote: 3) How many Gargoyle Broods for Tarpitting? And how many in each Brood? @1500? @1850? I'm wanting to build TAC lists and Gargoyles seem like the best way to keep something bogged down a couple turns. How many should I have? Will 2x 15 be enough to take shots going in and still hold my target for a turn or 2? This is for general purposes so I don't really have any examples of what I'd be holding with them.
I almost always run 1 squad of 20. That usually gets you a screen that can cover your entire army for deployment, and one good tarpit. As the number in the squad goes down, the tarpit effectiveness falls as well. 2 squads of 15 might work, but remember gargoyles are not going to be doing much damage. You might consider going with 1 squad, and a Squad of Hormagaunts who are nearly as fast, better in CC, and have objective secured.
syypher wrote: 4) How many Flyrants is enough @1850 to keep my opponent honest and pressured? I was thinking 3. But I'd have to ally another Tyranid detachment which I don't mind.
It depends entirely on your meta. In my meta, two Flyrants overwhelm almost any opponent I run into that isn't Tau. No-one is running anti-air in my area at all for some reason. I would say that for a Top tier Tyranid list you need 2. 3 is also good. If you take 4, you are running a slightly less balanced list that will have great success against many, many armies, but also has more hard counters, because you don't have enough left for support units like tarpitting gargoyles.
syypher wrote: 5) How do you guys win on objectives for those of you that use Ripper Swarms as your Troop choices? I know they have Objective secured but with just 2x min units to maximize the rest of our lists... if any of our enemies Objective Secured Super Scoring units survive we'd have a hard time contesting... Seems like Ripper Swarms could easily just be removed and then they proceed to win by 1 Obj.
I disagree with the ripper love. Every single game I've ever taken rippers, I've regretted it. Gants are so much better. That being said, Tyranid troops suck. They are terrible. Really, Really bad. Thankfully, everything is scoring. In an objective game, you might manage to steal one objective away from someone with objective secured, but mainly you will be scoring by eliminating enemy units and then claiming objectives with non-troops.
I honestly think that a good portion of the Ripper love is about playing faster. They are fewer models, and deep strike, so you don't have to deploy them, or move them on early turns. Since gants aren't very good to begin with taken an even worse unit in exchange for a faster game is probably a trade off that many people are willing to take. There is also a band wagoning effect going on, I expect game experiences to start turning people back to Gants eventually.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 16:09:15
2014/08/21 21:31:45
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
jy2 wrote: 1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.
I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.
jy2 wrote: 2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.
I consider Rippers bad, but Tervigons are worse. If those are your only two options, I don't blame you for running Rippers. But there is no reason that has to be. Consider for instance: 10 TGants + 10 HGants. The same price as Rippers, plus they can screen you on turn 1, they can get support from the Malanthrope, and they are more of an offensive threat / tarpit. If someone decides to shoot at them, they are choosing not to shoot at more valuable units. Or 10 HGaunts + 3 Rippers. 5 points more, and you've still got your deep striking troop, but you've also got more deployment flexibility, and early game scoring options. I agree with you that Rippers are cheap. But Gants are also cheap. And, unlike Rippers, gants can contribute throughout the game instead of only at the end, and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.
[Rant]The Tervigon: We've got to get away from 5th edition thinking where Tervigons were boss. They are over costed, and extremely so if you are taking them with the Gaunt tax. Outflanking Devil gants is an attempt to turn lemons into lemonade, but still does not justify the Tervigon. Putting Crushing Claws on a Tervigon gives it a role, but there are other, cheaper options that can fill that role. For the same price as a Tervigon you could take a Dakkafex + 11 Termagants. Which seems like a better usage of your points? The Tervigon is a remnant of an age that is passed. Perhaps we can recall fondly the exploits of the Tervigon, but in 7th edition we cannot recreate them. It is time we let go, and forever banish the idea that a Tervigon is a competitive troop selection for a Tyranid list.[/Rant]
2014/08/22 06:54:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
syypher wrote: What does the living artillery formation do? Where do you get the data slate for this?
Living Artillery
1 Excocrine, 3 Biovores, 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood and comes with Organic Bombardment which gives all ranged weapons pinning and the ability to re-roll scatter dice on blast and barrage weapons.
Chaplain Sam wrote: Do y'all think that Living Artillery has surpassed Skyblight as the best formation with the changes to FMCs? I've been extremely underwhelmed with crones and harpies in the new edition.
Double flyrants, LAN formation, 4 dakkafexen, 1 or 2 malanthropes, and screening guants seems like a solid build to me.
Thoughts?
Crones are still a useful unit. Basically a more mobile Tyrannofex. Harpies are the real tax of skyblight. On the other hand skyblight has Objective secured, recycling gargoyles. Since gargoyles are one of our better units, that is a very cool thing.
Living Artillery is the way I'm going, but I think Tourneys will still see Skyblight often. It blows people out, and there are few hard counters (Serpent spam, Tau). Tau is seeing a downward trend, and so the main fear is serpent spam. The reason Skyblight is likely to still perform better in tourneys is that it can rack up a much larger margin of victory than Living Artillery. In tourneys where battle points matter, skyblight will continue to perform well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/22 07:04:07
It's more of an additional feature. 
)