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 Medium of Death wrote:
Part of me thinks it would be best just to expatriate Palestinians into the surrounding countries.

I don't think there's ever going to be a good solution to this problem and I think it takes up far too much international time.

The other countries don't want them.

 djones520 wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Part of me thinks it would be best just to expatriate Palestinians into the surrounding countries.

I don't think there's ever going to be a good solution to this problem and I think it takes up far too much international time.

The other countries don't want them.

So true

Like I said, oil rigs that can get through three feet of radioactive glass and radiation suits for oil workers that don't kill them from heat prostration.

Either that or develop the technology to get us to Mars and colonize it effectively. Then those of us in the 21st century can leave this planet for those trapped in the 16th century.

I think the first is far more likely given the current economic and scientific climate in the world. After all, we already have the nukes.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Part of me thinks it would be best just to expatriate Palestinians into the surrounding countries.

I don't think there's ever going to be a good solution to this problem and I think it takes up far too much international time.

They don't want them.

Remember the West Bank was Jordan. Jordan doesn't want it back.
Gaza was Egypt. They DEFINITELY don't want it back.

The other countries in the Gulf refuse to let the immigrate. They'll hire them as temporary (CHEAP) labor pool but thats it. They're like the Phillipines of the ME.

Thats the big problem, even if they formed a new nation, they'd still go almost automatically to "failed state" level.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Part of me thinks it would be best just to expatriate Palestinians into the surrounding countries.

I don't think there's ever going to be a good solution to this problem and I think it takes up far too much international time.

They don't want them.

Remember the West Bank was Jordan. Jordan doesn't want it back.
Gaza was Egypt. They DEFINITELY don't want it back.

The other countries in the Gulf refuse to let the immigrate. They'll hire them as temporary (CHEAP) labor pool but thats it. They're like the Phillipines of the ME.

Thats the big problem, even if they formed a new nation, they'd still go almost automatically to "failed state" level.

Forgot Golan Heights that Syria said "No Return"

Syria doesn't want Golan Heights? Really? Wow ok thats new to me. That really is strategically important. I'm surprised.

 Frazzled wrote:
Syria doesn't want Golan Heights? Really? Wow ok thats new to me. That really is strategically important. I'm surprised.

Syria wants the Heights back, they just are not convinced of their ability to achieve this.

Me Like Burnaz wrote:


It was the films of the concentration and death camps that turned the tide for most of the first world. However many people, myself included, feel that Israel has overplayed their hand where it comes to the guilt the first world feels for allowing the slaughter of the Jews. The tide is turning, after all you can only play the victim card for so long before people get tired. The US still accepts the victim-hood status for some reason. I think it's because we like to root for an underdog and the Israel lobby has done a great job of making them seem like the underdog in the region.

I think you're making the mistake of seeing this with a bit of a contemporary perspective, which doesn't acknowledge the psychologies involved.

For the longest time, Israel was the underdog in the region. They had to fight tooth and nail to prevent themselves being swarmed under for the following thirty years after they came into existence, and had genuine worries about further invasions/hostilities for the next twenty. Their security/domination of the region is a relatively recent thing. Living under that kind of pressure impacts psychologically on a culture to an amazing degree, and just because the children of today live in relative peace of mind where security is concerned, their parents (and the people who run the country) do not.

What's more, the Israeli Government is made up of Jews, and the Jews have lived through thousands of years of discrimination and persecution long before Hitler or Israel came around. That kind of cultural conditioning has impacted upon the Israeli psychology, and solidified even further the paranoid mindset provided by the 1950-1990 period. These 'Nobody likes us, we don't care', & 'Take care of your own and let the world hang' mentalities have become so ingrained that just pointing to the Israelis and saying, 'They need to drop the victim complex' simply doesn't take into account the level and complexity of cultural and historical conditioning at play here.

On 19 June 1967, the Israeli cabinet voted to return the Golan to Syria in exchange for a peace agreement. Such overtures were dismissed by the Arab world with the Khartoum Resolution on September 1, 1967.[12][13] In the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel agreed to return about 5% of the territory to Syrian civilian control. This part was incorporated into a demilitarised zone that runs along the ceasefire line and extends eastward. This strip is under the military control of UN peace keeping forces.

I knew Israel took Golan Heights from Syria. Its like a bread basket region I think. I also l found out just now why Syria didn't take it back so I clicked a link on the Resolution mention above

The Khartoum Resolution of September 1, 1967 was issued at the conclusion of 1967 Arab League summit convened in the wake of the Six-Day War, in Khartoum, the capital of Sudan. The summit lasted from August 29 to September 1 and was attended by eight Arab heads of state: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, and Sudan.[1] The resolution called for: a continued state of belligerency with Israel, ending the Arab oil boycott declared during the Six-Day War, an end to the North Yemen Civil War, and economic assistance for Egypt and Jordan. It is famous for containing (in the third paragraph) what became known as the "Three No's": "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it..."[2]

I highly doubt now though that Israel will return that portion of land back in this time frame and in the future

 Frazzled wrote:
[

Here's a question as you're closer to the source. What keeps Israel from deconstructing the Wailing Wall and reconstructing it somewhere else, say, south of Fredricksburg?

Wish I knew - I'm not a religious scholar so I don't really know. My guess is, that it'd be "really really hard."

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
[

Here's a question as you're closer to the source. What keeps Israel from deconstructing the Wailing Wall and reconstructing it somewhere else, say, south of Fredricksburg?

Wish I knew - I'm not a religious scholar so I don't really know. My guess is, that it'd be "really really hard."

What's behind the Wall....

 Frazzled wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Part of me thinks it would be best just to expatriate Palestinians into the surrounding countries.

I don't think there's ever going to be a good solution to this problem and I think it takes up far too much international time.

They don't want them.

Remember the West Bank was Jordan. Jordan doesn't want it back.
Gaza was Egypt. They DEFINITELY don't want it back.

The other countries in the Gulf refuse to let the immigrate. They'll hire them as temporary (CHEAP) labor pool but thats it. They're like the Phillipines of the ME.

Thats the big problem, even if they formed a new nation, they'd still go almost automatically to "failed state" level.

Unfortunately the only real solution is for the Egyptians to manage Gaza and the Jordanians to manage the West Bank. That way a real nation with something to lose is held accountable for these terrorists' actions.

The Egyptians don't want a war and neither do the Jordanians. They will keep the Palestinians in check. Their methods would be far more brutal than those that Israel ever used, and the international community would say absolutely nothing since they only care about Arabs being killed when Jews are doing it. And at the end of the day, there'd be peace.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
[

Here's a question as you're closer to the source. What keeps Israel from deconstructing the Wailing Wall and reconstructing it somewhere else, say, south of Fredricksburg?

Wish I knew - I'm not a religious scholar so I don't really know. My guess is, that it'd be "really really hard."

Uh... if they deconstructed the wall... what happens to the Mosque above? I thought it wasn't possible...

 Jihadin wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
[

Here's a question as you're closer to the source. What keeps Israel from deconstructing the Wailing Wall and reconstructing it somewhere else, say, south of Fredricksburg?

Wish I knew - I'm not a religious scholar so I don't really know. My guess is, that it'd be "really really hard."

What's behind the Wall....

Yeah that's a good point as well...as a nation Israel is mostly high tech startups, military companies...things that can be moved. Their livelihood is mainly intellectual property. On the other hand, there is a deeply religious minority with a disproportionate amount of sway that would never OK that.

Why people want to move the Israelis is beyond me anyway - it's far too late for that. Like EVERY nation, they fought for (and earned) every inch of land that is now the state of Israel. Nobody who seriously proposes relocating Israelis is worth taking seriously.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
[

Here's a question as you're closer to the source. What keeps Israel from deconstructing the Wailing Wall and reconstructing it somewhere else, say, south of Fredricksburg?

Wish I knew - I'm not a religious scholar so I don't really know. My guess is, that it'd be "really really hard."

What's behind the Wall....

Yeah that's a good point as well...as a nation Israel is mostly high tech startups, military companies...things that can be moved. Their livelihood is mainly intellectual property. On the other hand, there is a deeply religious minority with a disproportionate amount of sway that would never OK that.

Why people want to move the Israelis is beyond me anyway - it's far too late for that. Like EVERY nation, they fought for (and earned) every inch of land that is now the state of Israel. Nobody who seriously proposes relocating Israelis is worth taking seriously.

I'm not worth taking seriously? Thanks!
If I were Israeli, I'd look long about getting to the US or Canada. I don't see the fighting ending there, and who knows if Iran ever decides just make everything go boom. The problem with a theocracy with The Bomb is they might use it.

 Frazzled wrote:


I'm not worth taking seriously? Thanks!
If I were Israeli, I'd look long about getting to the US or Canada. I don't see the fighting ending there, and who knows if Iran ever decides just make everything go boom. The problem with a theocracy with The Bomb is they might use it.

I wouldn't make the assumption that you'd actually propose, with a straight face, evicting millions of people who shed blood and worked for the land on which they built their homes.

Don't get me wrong - I have zero interest in living in Israel, but they did build a first-world country out of absolutely nothing. Who am I to tell them to move? As for Iran, I really don't think they're going to use the bomb. Ahmadinejad talks a big game but I think the buck stops there...the actual leaders of that country aren't stupid. Israel likely has the full nuclear triad, and would glass Iran and the entire Islamic world if it came down to it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


I'm not worth taking seriously? Thanks!
If I were Israeli, I'd look long about getting to the US or Canada. I don't see the fighting ending there, and who knows if Iran ever decides just make everything go boom. The problem with a theocracy with The Bomb is they might use it.

I wouldn't make the assumption that you'd actually propose, with a straight face, evicting millions of people who shed blood and worked for the land on which they built their homes.

Don't get me wrong - I have zero interest in living in Israel, but they did build a first-world country out of absolutely nothing. Who am I to tell them to move? As for Iran, I really don't think they're going to use the bomb. Ahmadinejad talks a big game but I think the buck stops there...the actual leaders of that country aren't stupid. Israel likely has the full nuclear triad, and would glass Iran and the entire Islamic world if it came down to it.

Ahmadinejad retired. Theres a new lunatic in charge of the asylum.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


I'm not worth taking seriously? Thanks!
If I were Israeli, I'd look long about getting to the US or Canada. I don't see the fighting ending there, and who knows if Iran ever decides just make everything go boom. The problem with a theocracy with The Bomb is they might use it.

I wouldn't make the assumption that you'd actually propose, with a straight face, evicting millions of people who shed blood and worked for the land on which they built their homes.

Don't get me wrong - I have zero interest in living in Israel, but they did build a first-world country out of absolutely nothing. Who am I to tell them to move? As for Iran, I really don't think they're going to use the bomb. Ahmadinejad talks a big game but I think the buck stops there...the actual leaders of that country aren't stupid. Israel likely has the full nuclear triad, and would glass Iran and the entire Islamic world if it came down to it.

Evict? Heck no.

Voluntarily get the heck out of there as an entire nation? You betcha. Population is not that big. Run for the Hills baby, the Texas Hill Country to be more precise. We havt Tex Mex. Come on you know you want it.

If they irradiate the land first and made it a barren inhospitable wasteland, then I could support that.

 Ketara wrote:
pointing to the Israelis and saying, 'They need to drop the victim complex' simply doesn't take into account the level and complexity of cultural and historical conditioning at play here.

I understand why they don't want to do it. I'm just saying why the world seems to be getting sick and tired of the attitude. We mock the Muslims for living in the 16th century, it seems the Israelis are living in the 16th century BC with their mentality. Maybe they need to join the rest of us in the 21st century and get over themselves. Not saying they will want to, heck we have our own problems with the political dinosaurs from the boomer generation holding us back but at least they are only holding onto the 50's and 60's of the last century not the last 5,000 years...

I get that the Jews have had a rough road over the last 5,000 years, some of it for the silliest of reasons (religion) but a lot of it they brought on themselves (picking a fight with Rome comes to mind). I don't think they will get over it and move on but they need to if they want to turn the tide of public opinion in the 1st world. By and large we've (1st world) all overcame our histories, the US and Britain get along even though we had to fight a couple of bloody wars in the last couple hundred years. Even Germany and France are playing nice and their history of bloodshed is less than 100 years old. The time has come for Israel to do the same.

You can learn from history, but you can't live in your history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If they irradiate the land first and made it a barren inhospitable wasteland, then I could support that.

I think at some point it's going to come down to that no matter what we do.

Americans look at the Middle East and wonder why the Muslims can't just drop the whole Koran thing and join the 21st century like the rest of us. They wonder why the Muslims wallow in the 16th century following the laws set forth in the 8th century by a delusional Arab who thought Allah was talking to him. But a majority of Americans and almost every American politician to one degree follows a set of rules from around 5,000 BC which were somewhat updated between the 4th and 9th century AD and depending on their level of devotion endeavors to make the rest of the nation follow some or all of them as well. So the pot is calling the kettle black. Superstition is superstition no matter what robes and hats the charlatans who push it wear. They can no more drop their superstitions and move on than anyone else. While their particular flavor of charlatans pushing their superstitions say that their holy book says they are the chosen people and they must convert or kill everyone else is that significantly different than the Israeli charlatans who claim their followers are the chosen people? Is it different than the American charlatans of various flavors who try through all manner of sneaky means to increase the size of their flocks?

What is my point? I had one laying around here somewhere....

Oh yes! The point of all this is to say no one is going to significantly change their attitudes in the next 50 years. The hatred between Jews and Muslims can only get worse and with the prevalence of nukes on the world and the region someone is going to wind up tossing one at some point and everything will hit the fan.

Like I've said before, the solution lies in either the technology to colonize the stars and leave this planet to those obsessed with their silly superstitions to fight over the scraps and determine who are the "chosen" people or the technology to drill for oil in a radioactive wasteland.

I'd prefer #1 but I think we will wind up neck deep in #2....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Voluntarily get the heck out of there as an entire nation? You betcha. Population is not that big. Run for the Hills baby

But their particular set of superstitions and holy books tell them it is the land given to them by their imaginary friend. They can't leave without abandoning their entire set of superstitious beliefs. That's not going to happen. Humans cling to their superstitions.

 Frazzled wrote:
the Texas Hill Country to be more precise. We have Tex Mex. Come on you know you want it.

I thought Texans were trying to keep immigrants out...

Massive oversimplification is massive

I understand where you're coming from. I don't feel honestly like Israel is living in the past though. I feel like they have learned from their past. They've learned that slinking away doesn't solve the problem. In fact, it leads to eventual extinction of their culture. You can say the Jews have a persocution complex but it's because historically (literally for millenia(sp?)) they were persocuted. The world really is out to get them

I don't agree with everything Israel does. I tend to land on their side on many issues but there isn't a right answer to the problem unfortunately. At least not one that is going to be considered and approved by both sides. Both have done bad things and both don't want to give up what they feel they are entitled to/have worked for.

Additionally while you can say people follow "ancient" superstitions the values and interpretations of those superstitions isn't ancient. It's evolving. Muslims are in the same phase that Jews and Christians went through. It's just unfortunate they are going thru the phase when nukes are around.