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Yeah, deliberate attacks on civilians are wrong, every time, and counter productive anyway.

All it does is make your opponent more determined and reduce what sympathy may exist for your cause in the population you are attacking.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
UN estimates mean nothing. The organization is completely biased against Israel.

Why would that be? Because they all hate Jews? Or could it be that they are disgusted by what Israel has done?

Mind you the second option is a bit on the ludicrous side as well, since not a one of those nations can claim to have passed through history without getting some dirt on their lily white gloves, some more than others. Great Britain comes to mind as a rather egregious offender having done things that make Israel look pretty tame by comparison. Germany, nuff said. France did things in Africa that would curl your hair. Spain has it's own skeletons lurking in closets. The list continues dirtying the reputations of all those nations.

Israels one staunch defender, my own nation, has plenty of blood on their hands. Three little letters, CIA, wrap it up in a horrifying bundle of international douche baggery. (sorry if that is one the banned list, nothing else sums it up so well) Perhaps that's why they are more accepting of Israels horrific record and even ignore the fact that Israel attacked one of our warships in international waters. (USS Liberty, if you don't know about it use Google)

The question you have to ask yourself, no matter your side of the Israel debate, is how much blood on your hands is too much? If you can accept the WWII generation used terror bombing campaigns to soften up the enemy then can you really judge Israel that harshly? If you can't accept Israels trail of blood then how can you accept the blood your own nation has spilled over it's history? Is your disgust of Israel based on the fact it's happening in your lifetime? If so why that horror and not the hundred other horror shows playing out across the world?

People suck. It's that simple. They are fully capable of doing the most horrific atrocities against their neighbors for the most flimsy of reasons. They can support their nations involvement in a blood bath because of the promises of politicians, a breed notorious for dishonesty. Given the slightest of reasons they can return to the wild animals from which they evolved and commit horrible atrocities of their very own. Governments are simply the distillation of human desires and if humans are so flawed why wouldn't their governments be flawed as well?

Now, having said that I will admit my own biases in this debate run toward the economic. I only wish my nation let Israel rise or fall on its own, cutting off the foreign aid not because of moral reasons but selfish ones. I'd rather that money be spent on our own needs than Israels. I am consistent in my ideas, I want all foreign aid to stop.

Smells like supper so I will end this here.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't give a flying feth if one side in a war has no hope of possibly defeating the other side, if they deliberately and explicitly aim to kill innocent non combatant civilians then they are by definition fething EVIL.

So the world is evil. Cool. I always thought humanity sucked, nice to have someone share the viewpoint.

BTW, not going for moral relativism. Just saying trying to say one is evil while whitewashing history for another is dishonest.

In regards to the 2014 Isreal Gaza conflict: the loss of life in that region of the world is horrifying; however, I can't honestly blame Isreal for the bulk of the Gaza dead. Did the Israelis hit civilian structures? Yes. Did they kill civilians? Yes. Did they directly target those structures with the express purpose of killing civilians? No. That's the critical part of this whole affair, for me. Hamas fired the rockets from those structures in the hopes that the civilians would wither service as human shields or as a way to garner sympathy from weak stomached westerners.They (Hamas) are the reason this people were killed, and it's them who deserve the blame. To blame Isreal for this is to say that they do not have the right to defend their people, which is fraking nuts. Which one of our nations wouldn't respond the exact same way if they were in that situation? If the people of Gaza want to stop this sort of thing then they need to start policing their people and removing groups like Hamas. Nothing will happen until that's done. That being said, the entire region has huge problems with thousands of marauding nuts raping and murdering their way through the countryside in the name of some form of religious bullhonky, so the entire Islamic world could do with a good kick in the rear end when it comes to keeping their whackos under control.

As far as this tax revenue: Unfortunately for the people in the Palestinian Territories, this is something of a bitting the hand that feeds to sort of deal. Yes, it's the Palestinian Authorities' money, but they're dependent upon Israeli cooperation to get that revenue. The more they agitate Israel the less likely they are to get the money. Sucks, but those are the breaks.

Me Like Burnaz wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
UN estimates mean nothing. The organization is completely biased against Israel.

Why would that be? Because they all hate Jews? Or could it be that they are disgusted by what Israel has done?

Mind you the second option is a bit on the ludicrous side as well, since not a one of those nations can claim to have passed through history without getting some dirt on their lily white gloves, some more than others. Great Britain comes to mind as a rather egregious offender having done things that make Israel look pretty tame by comparison. Germany, nuff said. France did things in Africa that would curl your hair. Spain has it's own skeletons lurking in closets. The list continues dirtying the reputations of all those nations.

Israels one staunch defender, my own nation, has plenty of blood on their hands. Three little letters, CIA, wrap it up in a horrifying bundle of international douche baggery. (sorry if that is one the banned list, nothing else sums it up so well) Perhaps that's why they are more accepting of Israels horrific record and even ignore the fact that Israel attacked one of our warships in international waters. (USS Liberty, if you don't know about it use Google)

The question you have to ask yourself, no matter your side of the Israel debate, is how much blood on your hands is too much? If you can accept the WWII generation used terror bombing campaigns to soften up the enemy then can you really judge Israel that harshly? If you can't accept Israels trail of blood then how can you accept the blood your own nation has spilled over it's history? Is your disgust of Israel based on the fact it's happening in your lifetime? If so why that horror and not the hundred other horror shows playing out across the world?

People suck. It's that simple. They are fully capable of doing the most horrific atrocities against their neighbors for the most flimsy of reasons. They can support their nations involvement in a blood bath because of the promises of politicians, a breed notorious for dishonesty. Given the slightest of reasons they can return to the wild animals from which they evolved and commit horrible atrocities of their very own. Governments are simply the distillation of human desires and if humans are so flawed why wouldn't their governments be flawed as well?

Now, having said that I will admit my own biases in this debate run toward the economic. I only wish my nation let Israel rise or fall on its own, cutting off the foreign aid not because of moral reasons but selfish ones. I'd rather that money be spent on our own needs than Israels. I am consistent in my ideas, I want all foreign aid to stop.

Smells like supper so I will end this here.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't give a flying feth if one side in a war has no hope of possibly defeating the other side, if they deliberately and explicitly aim to kill innocent non combatant civilians then they are by definition fething EVIL.

So the world is evil. Cool. I always thought humanity sucked, nice to have someone share the viewpoint.

BTW, not going for moral relativism. Just saying trying to say one is evil while whitewashing history for another is dishonest.

It could be for any number of reasons. I suspect that the main reason is that the UNHRC is, year after year, ironically staffed by some of the greatest abusers of human rights on earth. Blaming Israel for everything that's wrong with the world conceals their own countries' transgressions which, individually and annually, far exceed those of Israel in its entire history.

On the issue of foreign aid, as an American citizen I completely agree with you. As someone with an interest in Israel's prosperity, I also agree with you. My cognitive dissonance regarding US aid to Israel comes from the fact that my reasons behind opposing aid as a member of those two identities are essentially opposed - as an American, I don't think that we should be throwing money we don't have at people who either don't need it (Israel), or don't deserve it (insert random country that hates us here), but as an IDF veteran and a Jew I realize that US aid to Israel keeps Israel "on the leash" where the country's military and trade opportunities would be far greater without US aid. And the problem is that Israel exploring those opportunities is bad for America. It's a very complicated issue.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
... but as an IDF veteran and a Jew. I realize that US aid to Israel keeps Israel "on the leash" where the country's military and trade opportunities would be far greater without US aid. And the problem is that Israel exploring those opportunities is bad for America. It's a very complicated issue.

So you want to be an Israeli, an American, and a Jew all at the same time; after having served in the IDF? That doesn't really work, in my opinion. There are too many demonstrated conflicts of interest.

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
... but as an IDF veteran and a Jew. I realize that US aid to Israel keeps Israel "on the leash" where the country's military and trade opportunities would be far greater without US aid. And the problem is that Israel exploring those opportunities is bad for America. It's a very complicated issue.

So you want to be an Israeli, an American, and a Jew all at the same time? That doesn't really work.

Sure it does.

The IDF accepts foreign volunteers through a variety of programs, both in a combat and non-combat capacity.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Sure it does.

The IDF accepts foreign volunteers through a variety of programs, both in a combat and non-combat capacity.

I know, but service in a foreign military has historically been considered tacit to opting out of US citizenship. Additionally, a personal conflict of interest was the subject of my comment.

 dogma wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Sure it does.

The IDF accepts foreign volunteers through a variety of programs, both in a combat and non-combat capacity.

I know, but service in a foreign military has historically been considered tacit to opting out of US citizenship. Additionally, a personal conflict of interest was the subject of my comment.

It's not, at least it hasn't been for some time. The United States recognizes the right of an American citizen that holds dual citizenship to serve in the armed forces of that country, so long as they do not engage in hostilities against the United States. This has more or less been the case since Afroyim v. Rusk in 1967. Israel isn't alone in this regard either as both Australia and New Zealand have programs that accept Americans into their armed forces as well. Of course, non-state actors (like terrorist groups) that accept Americans are generally frowned upon by the State Department.

Israel is a somewhat special case because their Law of Return grants Jews citizenship (which the US recognizes), therefore making them eligible for conscription into the IDF.

Where are you seeing a conflict of interest? If anything, it gives him a much more nuanced view of United States-Israeli relations, which I think he demonstrated in his post.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Israel is a somewhat special case because their Law of Return grants Jews citizenship (which the US recognizes), therefore making them eligible for conscription into the IDF.

That's false. You are only under the force of the laws requiring mandatory service once you have exercised the right of return granted by the Law of Return, thereby becoming an Israeli citizen. You are not an Israeli citizen simply because you are a Jew.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Where are you seeing a conflict of interest? If anything, it gives him a much more nuanced view of United States-Israeli relations, which I think he demonstrated in his post.

The maintenance of a dual citizenship, including military service, which could easily be argued to go against the interests of the US.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Sure it does.

The IDF accepts foreign volunteers through a variety of programs, both in a combat and non-combat capacity.

I know, but service in a foreign military has historically been considered tacit to opting out of US citizenship. Additionally, a personal conflict of interest was the subject of my comment.

It's not, at least it hasn't been for some time. The United States recognizes the right of an American citizen that holds dual citizenship to serve in the armed forces of that country, so long as they do not engage in hostilities against the United States. This has more or less been the case since Afroyim v. Rusk in 1967. Israel isn't alone in this regard either as both Australia and New Zealand have programs that accept Americans into their armed forces as well. Of course, non-state actors (like terrorist groups) that accept Americans are generally frowned upon by the State Department.

Israel is a somewhat special case because their Law of Return grants Jews citizenship (which the US recognizes), therefore making them eligible for conscription into the IDF.

Where are you seeing a conflict of interest? If anything, it gives him a much more nuanced view of United States-Israeli relations, which I think he demonstrated in his post.

Individual has to renounce their Citizenship in front of Consulate officer and must be current on his/her taxes five years past

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Yeah, deliberate attacks on civilians are wrong, every time, and counter productive anyway.

All it does is make your opponent more determined and reduce what sympathy may exist for your cause in the population you are attacking.

They are counterproductive ONLY if you don't wipe out the civilian population or their society.
History is replete where attacks on civilians worked just fine.*



*Frazzled is not advocating this, unless you include cats and squirrels. As Rodney the wiener dog says: "the only good cat is a dead cat. "


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
... but as an IDF veteran and a Jew. I realize that US aid to Israel keeps Israel "on the leash" where the country's military and trade opportunities would be far greater without US aid. And the problem is that Israel exploring those opportunities is bad for America. It's a very complicated issue.

So you want to be an Israeli, an American, and a Jew all at the same time; after having served in the IDF? That doesn't really work, in my opinion. There are too many demonstrated conflicts of interest.

Yea buddy. You either like TexMex, or you're don't (and you're then by default the spawn of satan). he who controls the TexMex controls the universe!

Me Like Burnaz wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
UN estimates mean nothing. The organization is completely biased against Israel.

Why would that be? Because they all hate Jews? Or could it be that they are disgusted by what Israel has done?

A scary amount of the world is still anti-semitic, and surprisingly enough, represented on the UN. Many other countries people are culturally inclined towards being anti-semitic due to a leftover collective/public memory (although thankfully, this is beginning to fade in many of them as generations pass).

It should be noted here that the UN quite regularly uncritically accepts body counts from the likes of Hamas every time there's an Israeli strike, even though names are often duplicated or suspicious, and absolutely no cross checking is done to identify the accuracy of such reports. Yet when Israel launches an investigation into an alleged incident, with a paper trail and evidence gathering, the UN disregards/poo poos it.

That's not to say casualty figures are completely bogus, but merely to illustrate an example as to where the UN gives certain parties an easy ride, and others not so much. Unfortunately, being the United Nations does not equate to being neutral.

So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

Cats and dogs living together under one roof!

Its easy actually, Just envision every other country bordering another country peacefully.

Step one. Don't kill each other.
Step two. Respect each other's borders.
Step Three: Repeat.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

I would think that a two-state solution of some sort would probably be ideal. What a sustainable version of that would actually look like, I'm not sure. It would be nice to see it happen in my lifetime, but I don't know if that is realistic.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

A two state, or one state solution would work, the two state probably being more ideal.

While as a 3rd party a one step seems ideal, the political realities make that untenable for Israel, at least in our lifetime, or until the Zombies come.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

A temporary ceasefire. Punctuated by rocket fire.

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
... but as an IDF veteran and a Jew. I realize that US aid to Israel keeps Israel "on the leash" where the country's military and trade opportunities would be far greater without US aid. And the problem is that Israel exploring those opportunities is bad for America. It's a very complicated issue.

So you want to be an Israeli, an American, and a Jew all at the same time; after having served in the IDF? That doesn't really work, in my opinion. There are too many demonstrated conflicts of interest.

So I don't have your permission? Do you have any idea how smug that is?

Legally speaking there is no problem with being all of the above. If you enlist with the intent of renouncing your citizenship or become an officer, then it becomes a problem.

 Jihadin wrote:

Individual has to renounce their Citizenship in front of Consulate officer and must be current on his/her taxes five years past

Most of the time. Technically you can't take an oath under the authority of a foreign government and remain a US citizen which, as I understand, is required of people who serve in the IDF.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians are not free, and they have an entitlement to self determination and freedom.

First this needs to be sorted out, then the other matters can be addressed.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

So I don't have your permission? Do you have any idea how smug that is?

Yes, but I also know I care more about the US than I do about Israel and that I don't like the fact that the US essentially gives a free pass US citizens who want to go fight with the IDF.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
... but as an IDF veteran and a Jew. I realize that US aid to Israel keeps Israel "on the leash" where the country's military and trade opportunities would be far greater without US aid. And the problem is that Israel exploring those opportunities is bad for America. It's a very complicated issue.

So you want to be an Israeli, an American, and a Jew all at the same time; after having served in the IDF? That doesn't really work, in my opinion. There are too many demonstrated conflicts of interest.

So I don't have your permission? Do you have any idea how smug that is?

Legally speaking there is no problem with being all of the above. If you enlist with the intent of renouncing your citizenship or become an officer, then it becomes a problem.

Again the essential question is simple. Do you like TexMex, or are you one of those godless commie pinkoes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
The bottom line is that the Palestinians are not free, and they have an entitlement to self determination and freedom.

First this needs to be sorted out, then the other matters can be addressed.

only if they quit killing the other guys. If they were an independent country, Israel could legally declare declare war against them for aggressions, well, daily.

You can't be independent and still attack your neighbors without a response.

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

So I don't have your permission? Do you have any idea how smug that is?

Yes, but I also know I care more about the US than I do about Israel and that I don't like the fact that the US essentially gives a free pass US citizens who want to go fight with the IDF.

US citizens have a free pass to join any non-hostile foreign military as long as they abide by those restrictions.

Also you might be surprised to hear the reasons people have for fighting in the IDF as opposed to the US military. Most of the Americans in my unit returned to the US after serving. Everyone has their own reasons...mine were mainly practical rather than ideological or political.


Frazzled, of course I like TexMex. I like it even better if it comes from a grimy food cart! 'Merica

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

Israel moves to Montana or South Dakota. Seriously, the whole country could move into one of those states and it would be twenty years before any of the locals noticed the new people. Meanwhile, the governments of the Middle East (including Hamas) have to come to terms with the fact that using Israel as a scapegoat to deflect criticism and focus hatred on doesn't work when Israel isn't there anymore...

squidhills wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what would people on this forum envisage peace between Israelis and Palestinians to look like?

Israel moves to Montana or South Dakota. Seriously, the whole country could move into one of those states and it would be twenty years before any of the locals noticed the new people. Meanwhile, the governments of the Middle East (including Hamas) have to come to terms with the fact that using Israel as a scapegoat to deflect criticism and focus hatred on doesn't work when Israel isn't there anymore...

I proposed McAllen myself. Its hot, with beach property, two neutral borders, and Israel could fit onto the King Ranch with room to spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

So I don't have your permission? Do you have any idea how smug that is?

Yes, but I also know I care more about the US than I do about Israel and that I don't like the fact that the US essentially gives a free pass US citizens who want to go fight with the IDF.

US citizens have a free pass to join any non-hostile foreign military as long as they abide by those restrictions.

Also you might be surprised to hear the reasons people have for fighting in the IDF as opposed to the US military. Most of the Americans in my unit returned to the US after serving. Everyone has their own reasons...mine were mainly practical rather than ideological or political.

Here's a question as you're closer to the source. What keeps Israel from deconstructing the Wailing Wall and reconstructing it somewhere else, say, south of Fredricksburg?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

So I don't have your permission? Do you have any idea how smug that is?

Yes, but I also know I care more about the US than I do about Israel and that I don't like the fact that the US essentially gives a free pass US citizens who want to go fight with the IDF.

US citizens have a free pass to join any non-hostile foreign military as long as they abide by those restrictions.

Also you might be surprised to hear the reasons people have for fighting in the IDF as opposed to the US military. Most of the Americans in my unit returned to the US after serving. Everyone has their own reasons...mine were mainly practical rather than ideological or political.


Frazzled, of course I like TexMex. I like it even better if it comes from a grimy food cart! 'Merica

Grimy food carts are the best... I'm so hungry now.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
The bottom line is that the Palestinians are not free, and they have an entitlement to self determination and freedom.

First this needs to be sorted out, then the other matters can be addressed.

only if they quit killing the other guys. If they were an independent country, Israel could legally declare declare war against them for aggressions, well, daily.

You can't be independent and still attack your neighbors without a response.

Frazzie, Israel is attacked by small numbers of very angry people, who have been left with nothing and living under oppression for far longer than most Dakkaites have been alive.
Israel is a state however, an it launches brutal attacks as a nation state, often against civilians and non participants of violence. Some are bombed, some are shot, some have their homes bulldozed.
Also not all of Israels attacks are responses to rockets, Israel also uses its intelligence apparatus to remove Palestinians and other opponents that don't want.

Lets look at it another way:
Imagine for a moment that Texas was powerless and the Mexicans were able to overfly your home, bomb your neighbours, and bulldoze your house. Perhaps your neighbours were killed as a result of this, some maybe were Texan militants with a religious hate for Mexicans, but most victims were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So Frazzie, you have lost your family to an airstrike, your Weiner Dogs too, nd your home has been systemically bulldozed because it was in the other sides way. You are denied access to most of the infrastructure that makes life worth living.

Would you settle for that, would it be ok? Keeping in mind most Palestinians have been living under subjugation since 1967.
This is the kicker, most of us have very little recognance of the level of subjugation and state sanctioned bigotry involved, so much so it may be difficult to conceptualise the plight of the Palestianisn for themselves.

The sooner that Palestinians get human rights, the better. Israel is a alleged western democracy, they are supposed to have higher standards than terrorists, not the same or in all probability lower.

There is so much wrong with that post, I don't even know where to start.

Frazzie, Israel is attacked by small numbers of very angry people, who have been left with nothing and living under oppression for far longer than most Dakkaites have been alive.
Israel is a state however, an it launches brutal attacks as a nation state, often against civilians and non participants of violence. Some are bombed, some are shot, some have their homes bulldozed.
Also not all of Israels attacks are responses to rockets, Israel also uses its intelligence apparatus to remove Palestinians and other opponents that don't want.

Lets look at it another way:
Imagine for a moment that Texas was powerless and the Mexicans were able to overfly your home, bomb your neighbours, and bulldoze your house. Perhaps your neighbours were killed as a result of this, some maybe were Texan militants with a religious hate for Mexicans, but most victims were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So Frazzie, you have lost your family to an airstrike, your Weiner Dogs too, nd your home has been systemically bulldozed because it was in the other sides way. You are denied access to most of the infrastructure that makes life worth living.

Would you settle for that, would it be ok? Keeping in mind most Palestinians have been living under subjugation since 1967.
This is the kicker, most of us have very little recognance of the level of subjugation and state sanctioned bigotry involved, so much so it may be difficult to conceptualise the plight of the Palestianisn for themselves.

The sooner that Palestinians get human rights, the better. Israel is a alleged western democracy, they are supposed to have higher standards than terrorists, not the same or in all probability lower.

And with that mentaility nothing will change until everyone on one side is dead. Eventually Israel will tire of the endless tit for tat and finish it ISIS style or they will be nuked and nuke everyone else. Everyone has a grievous from some time in that part of the world. Its an excuse, and that region has never needed much of an excuse to commit mass homicide.

Or everyone can just stop now.