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 Da Boss wrote:
They were offered all the marginal land, while Israel was established on the prime agricultural land and coastline. Look at the crazy way the land is divided into two chunks of "palestinian" land - the division favoured Israel and disregarded the Palestinians.

Thats because they didn't want to cooexist with Jews.

We could have had one nation state with that land being everyones.

 Da Boss wrote:
They were offered all the marginal land, while Israel was established on the prime agricultural land and coastline. Look at the crazy way the land is divided into two chunks of "palestinian" land - the division favoured Israel and disregarded the Palestinians.

They could have lived in Israel as well. They could have been Israeli. There were no nations there before. Everyone gets pissed because Israel just sprang out of "thing air". Well, Iraq did the same thing. Jordan did the same thing. Syria did the same thing. Lebanon did the same thing. Where is the anger out of these nations just coming into existence?

It was their irrational hatred of all things Jewish though that drove it to where we are today.

Grey Templar- I will admit antisemitism was a big part of it, and still is (very sadly), but that is far to simplistic a view on the creation of Israel. It wasn't like people were offering the Palestinians much of a choice about anything, they were a complete afterthought.

Djones520: The stated purpose of the creation of Israel was as an explicitly Jewish state! The guys that started out the Zionist movement wanted a Jewish state. The ones who founded Israel were hardliners, who had committed many terrorist acts before they got their way. If I had been a muslim living there, I'd have been TERRIFIED of these guys! They never said "Oh hey, let's make a mixed Jewish and Islamic state" and to suggest they did is disingenuous in the extreme.

I mean, say we took a whole pile of mexicans and transplanted them into Austin Texas and told the texans there that this was a mexican state now. Do you think the Texans would take that lying down? I certainly don't! The whole thing was a total mess in how it was conceived and implemented. There is no innocent party in it. Or hell, turn the Mexicans in my example into Muslims from Nigeria. Think the cultural differences wouldn't matter?

 Da Boss wrote:

Djones520: The stated purpose of the creation of Israel was as an explicitly Jewish state! The guys that started out the Zionist movement wanted a Jewish state. The ones who founded Israel were hardliners, who had committed many terrorist acts before they got their way. If I had been a muslim living there, I'd have been TERRIFIED of these guys! They never said "Oh hey, let's make a mixed Jewish and Islamic state" and to suggest they did is disingenuous in the extreme.

The people who ran the Zionist movement did not create or found the State of Israel, or transplant most of the European Jewry there.


Having said that, there are so many 'sides' to this particular blood-stained coin, that nobody comes off clean anymore. The term 'cycle of hatred' has never been more appropriate.

I am not saying (and I think I was pretty clear on that but whatever) that they created or founded Israel, I'm saying that they were active in the region putting pressure on the British government well before the state was founded. Hardline Zionists DEFINITELY had a major hand in the founding. They were also buying up plenty of land and properties in the area - exactly the sort of thing that causes anti-immigration panic in our own nations today.

I agree with you about the second sentence I suppose, which is why it annoys me that Israel gets a free pass from the US in this. I wish Hamas as an organisation was dismantled and the peaceful political approach had worked. But it didn't, largely due to israel's refusal to co-operate.

 Da Boss wrote:
I am not saying (and I think I was pretty clear on that but whatever) that they created or founded Israel, I'm saying that they were active in the region putting pressure on the British government well before the state was founded. Hardline Zionists DEFINITELY had a major hand in the founding. They were also buying up plenty of land and properties in the area - exactly the sort of thing that causes anti-immigration panic in our own nations today.

I agree with you about the second sentence I suppose, which is why it annoys me that Israel gets a free pass from the US in this. I wish Hamas as an organisation was dismantled and the peaceful political approach had worked. But it didn't, largely due to israel's refusal to co-operate.

Fair enough, perhaps I misread.

I know that Israel gets a free pass in the US, but I often feel that it is the complete opposite over here in the UK. The media machine here is so intrinsically pro-Arab on absolutely anything involving Israel that it genuinely annoys me. So I suppose there's a balance maintained?

I would also ask you what time point you're alleging Israel is mainly responsible for the failure of the peace process. Because that's been going on for a long time now, to the point whereby I'm not sure you could ever point to a specific point and say, 'it should have stopped there', let alone attribute blame to one side primarily.

Should have someone mention Reparation

To go back to the OP the group the Israelis are withholding funds from is the PNA, not Palestinians in general. Israel never funded any other Palestinian political group.

That doesn't make it any better, because the PNA is basically seeking further international recognition and trying to become a state in doing so, but that's what is happening. There's also the attempted Fatah-Hamas agreement which, justifiably, has Israel scared.

Ketara - Because it's such a long running process, I agree that you can't point to any one point and say "Here, if they'd just done something HERE, it would have been okay!" but from the couple of books I've read on the topic it looks to me that Israel has blocked settlement more often than Palestine, simply because it has far more to lose and far less to gain from any change to the status quo.

 Ketara wrote:
Having said that, there are so many 'sides' to this particular blood-stained coin, that nobody comes off clean anymore. The term 'cycle of hatred' has never been more appropriate.

Well, that's really the worst thing in it. A Palestinian group fires some rockets, Israel dumps a few bombs. An Israeli settlement enlargement levels a Palestinian village, some of the displaced villagers go suicide bomber. And the Israeli military sure do get a lot of "get out of jail" cards for destroying houses where a suspected terrorist might have lived. The Palestinians at least have the excuse that attacks are conducted by extremist groups that can't be controlled by the weak central authority. The things that the military of a well-run democratic state does can't be something the nation disapproves of, can it?

But the worst part is both sides have people who don't want peace. Palestinians want to wipe out Israel? Sure, many do. But many Israeli hardliners also want to "get rid" of the non-Israeli population in the occupied areas. They just don't do it by killing everyone, they build new houses and send in the army if the filthy arabs don't understand to move away. You can't rule Israel if you don't want to get rid of the Palestinians (at least not if you like not getting assassinated). You can't rule the Palestinians if you don't - at the very least - want Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders.

What were the options for Jews after WW2? Many had no family or property to go home to after the war, and programs that saw the murders of yet more Jews were already starting back up as early as 1946 in places like Poland. They certainly had good reason to fear trying to live again in Germany and places like France, where they were turned in by neighbors or rounded up in raids.
Europe, in their minds, where the Jewish population was scattered and easy prey for whatever mood gripped the main populace, was fast becoming a good place to get out of.
The relocation could clearly have been handled better, but it needed to happen

Well, I'd argue that's debateable - that it needed to happen, but I can certainly understand why the survivors wanted to get the hell out and not be under the thumb of anyone else ever again.

In any case, it happened. It can't be undone, and it's a bloody mess.

 Da Boss wrote:


In any case, it happened. It can't be undone, and it's a bloody mess.

Too bloody right.

Setting the place straight would require gallons of neutral blood and piles of cash, and nobody is prepared to sacrifice so much for a dustbowl in the Middle-East. The willpower simply isn't there.

So next year, we'll have a couple more homes demolished, and a few more suicide bombers. That'll happen every year until Hamas rebuilds its missile supply, and comes up with a way of launching chlorine gas into israel or something, at which point there'll be another bloody and short conflict. Rinse and repeat.

Meanwhile, more and more people hate each other more and more. Fortress Israel puts up more walls and discrimination, and radical Palestine keeps coming up with new ways to undermine them.

What a waste.

Does everyone forget the 2008 deal that the PA rejected? I mean that was probably the best they could get but Abbas said no, after that I don't think the PA has any right to complain and moan about anything.

Hah! This is what me and Ketara were talking about- how many proposals has Israel shot down? You can't easily point at one incident like that and say "Okay, from now on THAT side is in the wrong entirely!"

 Da Boss wrote:
Hah! This is what me and Ketara were talking about- how many proposals has Israel shot down? You can't easily point at one incident like that and say "Okay, from now on THAT side is in the wrong entirely!"

Except Abbas, the PA/Hamas do not want peace with Israel.

Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

Lol, okay.

So...a terrorist organisation wants to join an International Criminal Court...does anyone else see the irony here? Let Palestine join the ICC I say. And prosecute BOTH sides, but especially Hamas, for any and all crimes committed by their respective government's.

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

That's not exactly true...

They just don't want to carve up the existing Israeli state for a new Palistine.

In fact, there's also the subject of the "Right of Return" too... which isn't easy to resolve.

Did Israel recognise Palestinian statehood while I wasn't paying attention or something?

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

That's not exactly true...

They just don't want to carve up the existing Israeli state for a new Palistine.

In fact, there's also the subject of the "Right of Return" too... which isn't easy to resolve.

Not to mention the fact they seem to want to expand their state with that wall they're building.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

That's not exactly true...

They just don't want to carve up the existing Israeli state for a new Palistine.

In fact, there's also the subject of the "Right of Return" too... which isn't easy to resolve.

Not to mention the fact they seem to want to expand their state with that wall they're building.

The irony that a brit is saying this is hilarious.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So Israel attempts to block the Palestinians from joining the ICC in order to bring legal action against Israel for their conduct in the recent hostilities by collectively punishing the entire palestinian people through the withholding of funding. Really gonna persuade people that you didn't do anything wrong...

Don't worry, there will always be people who will apologize for mans inhumanity to man no matter where it happens. There are people trying to say the Jewish Holocaust never happened and that's about the biggest attempt I've ever heard of. I'm sure somewhere there are people trying to claim the African slave trade never happened and the Potato Famine was just an agricultural problem. If there were not such people war could never happen since it is the ultimate expression of inhumanity, murder on a mass scale, and we wouldn't have war-games emulating the concept to play.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Israel doesn't target civilians.

Maybe not, but they do practice something called Collective Punishment. If someone takes a potshot at Israelis the IDF happily takes out a few houses "to make sure it doesn't happen again". And they often do quite dickish moves when after a suspect, such as demolishing his home (or the home of his parents). If that leaves 20 people homeless, well, serves them right for being related to the guy. As they say on the West Bank - you're not innocent until proven guilty, you're guilty until dead.

You can forgive them for being heavy handed sometimes. They are surrounded by people who would enjoy nothing better than the complete extermination of all Jews.

Actually no, I can't. They'd probably find less people wanted them dead if they didn't punish innocent people for happening to live close to someone who fired a rocket at them.

Collective punishment is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva conventions.

Another part of the laws of war which Israel may have breached is that of proportionality.

A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(b)(iv)).

In the most recent conflict, the UN estimates the number of Palestinian militants killed as 557. In contrast to that they estimate the deaths of 1,500 civilians (including 490 children). So 69% of casualties were civilian. Then there are estimates to 11,00 palestinians wounded, 500,000 displaced, 20,000 homes destroyed.

In the instance of the attack on the hospital which they claimed was being used to store rockets they killed 5 patients and injured 70 people, including 30 medical personnel. Was that proportionate to the small military advantage of possibly removing a small rocket stockpile? Considering that it didn't seemingly reduce Hamas' ability to launch rocket attacks, at all?

UN estimates mean nothing. The organization is completely biased against Israel.

Don't want to get your hospital blown up? Don't store rockets in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

They already have their own state. It's called Jordan.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...a terrorist organisation wants to join an International Criminal Court...does anyone else see the irony here? Let Palestine join the ICC I say. And prosecute BOTH sides, but especially Hamas, for any and all crimes committed by their respective government's.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. When facing a military force you have no hope of defeating on the open field you resort to tactics the larger force will always call terrorism.

And don't pull the "attacks on civilian populations are terrorism" argument to equate them to evil. What do you think the Firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were all about? The "good guys" use terror tactics as well.

No one comes out of history smelling like a rose...

Me Like Burnaz wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...a terrorist organisation wants to join an International Criminal Court...does anyone else see the irony here? Let Palestine join the ICC I say. And prosecute BOTH sides, but especially Hamas, for any and all crimes committed by their respective government's.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. When facing a military force you have no hope of defeating on the open field you resort to tactics the larger force will always call terrorism.

And don't pull the "attacks on civilian populations are terrorism" argument to equate them to evil. What do you think the Firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were all about? The "good guys" use terror tactics as well.

No one comes out of history smelling like a rose...

So a world recognized terrorist organization isn't a terrorist organization

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

They already have their own state. It's called Jordan.

Since you bring Jordan into this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Relapse wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Because Israel does not want them to have their own state It's not rocket science or anything.

They already have their own state. It's called Jordan.

Since you bring Jordan into this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

And thats why they aren't allowed to leave refugee camps now.

Me Like Burnaz wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...a terrorist organisation wants to join an International Criminal Court...does anyone else see the irony here? Let Palestine join the ICC I say. And prosecute BOTH sides, but especially Hamas, for any and all crimes committed by their respective government's.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. When facing a military force you have no hope of defeating on the open field you resort to tactics the larger force will always call terrorism.

And don't pull the "attacks on civilian populations are terrorism" argument to equate them to evil. What do you think the Firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were all about? The "good guys" use terror tactics as well.

No one comes out of history smelling like a rose...

Did I say the Allies in world war 2 were the good guys? I'm of the opinion that Dresden and the atomic bombings were war crimes. (And the Blitz, and Warsaw, and so on). So please don't try to play that particular straw man card as if it's an actual valid argument against me.

I don't give a flying feth if one side in a war has no hope of possibly defeating the other side, if they deliberately and explicitly aim to kill innocent non combatant civilians then they are by definition fething EVIL. This applies to Hamas. ISIS. Pretty much all nations in WW2 that carried out indiscriminate bombing campaigns and other campaigns of deliberate violence against non combatent civilian populations. The IRA and Loyalist paramilitary groups.

It is the act itself that it is evil. If you commit evil acts, then you become evil.

I'm sorry, but I just do not share your moral relativism.