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2015/10/20 03:36:41
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
If it were a state Israel could have already annihilated it.
Firstly, this has absolutely nothing to do with what has been said previously.
The point is that Palestine would be less of a target for illegal Israeli activities if it achieved greater international recognition. Why are you talking about annihilating it?
Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that it would be a viable political move for Israel to openly annex all of Palestine? Total nonsense, but also unnecessary due to the current situation.
It makes far more sense for them to carry on as they currently are: taking all the fertile land and water sources slowly as international help is blocked, and degrading the Palestinians down to a sub-human level, forcing them to live in camps, and making them beg for food and water.
Isn't history ironic?
2015/10/20 05:18:05
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Let me summarize that video for you in a single quote. "I don't think that there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza"
I don't see how Kemp can make that comment. In one week of operations in Gaza the IDF killed far more collateral civilian casualties than the British army did in Northern Ireland over a course of several decades. They were also out of synch with casualty figures from the Basra occupation in the last decade. This only accounts the British and recent history and thus doesn't look at the record in Malaysia either. Going for the 'history of warfare' on more than one occasion whole nations have been taken over with less overall casualties than the collateral Palestinian casualties of the campaign he was speaking about, which were well over 2000.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 05:25:55
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
The Geneva Conventions (Article 19, 4th Convention) explicitly state that the presence of enemies or weapons in a hospital is not a valid reason for an attack, and not adhering to the Geneva Conventions is a warcrime.
And I highly suggest you go read the Geneva convention instead of just posting bits and pieces. It specifically says that enemy personnel can be there, and small arms that are going to be turned into the proper authorities. Utilizing a hospital/school to store military equipment is specifically forbidden by the Geneva convention and you would know that if you had spent 10 minutes reading instead of cherry picking.
Iron_Captain is not cherry picking, he is right in his interpretation of the law.
Irregular fighters might store weapons in a hospital, that is illegal, but it is what irregular fighters do. The culpability is local and individual. The IDF is a national armed force though, operating directly from a nation state with command resources, it has a conscious governmental control. Thus the conscious decision to bomb a hospital is not only a crime, it is a worse crime. It is a national war crime.
Also storing weapons and directing large scale ordnance are two different things. If the hospital contained WMD there would be some leeway.
The thing is those opposing terrorists are expected to be better than the terrorists, not on a par, or in this case worse. and apologists for hospital bombings share the guilt.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Dont worry Atheism is catching up fast. Fanatics of the cult of no-god, as found in revolutionary communism are making up for not having a powerbase in the last three millenia by murdering more people in one century than the crusades killed over their entire history. And are still racking up a body count of deaths, and numerous more imprisonments of people who express a faith in, China, Tibet and North Korea in the current day. You might claim as a defence that you are not a communist Peter Wiggin, but then any Moslem or Jew here is also not necessarily an extremist either.
Just have to lay this one out for you in case you like to propogate the myth that removing organised religion removes the violence of religion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/20 05:36:09
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 05:41:40
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Just have to lay this one out for you in case you like to propogate the myth that removing organised religion removes the violence of religion.
Oh no, let me be very very clear. I'm not talking about "organized religion", I am specifically pointing the finger at the Abrahamic faiths as being an absolute blight on humanity. Humans are violent by their very nature, and Abrahamic faith is the perfect steroid for that violence. I sincerely wish that the billions of people who hold those faiths were capable of letting go of them.
Hope that makes my position crystal clear, since you want to try and sound smart/snarky.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/20 05:41:51
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
2015/10/20 06:07:06
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Just have to lay this one out for you in case you like to propogate the myth that removing organised religion removes the violence of religion.
Oh no, let me be very very clear. I'm not talking about "organized religion", I am specifically pointing the finger at the Abrahamic faiths as being an absolute blight on humanity. Humans are violent by their very nature, and Abrahamic faith is the perfect steroid for that violence. I sincerely wish that the billions of people who hold those faiths were capable of letting go of them.
Hope that makes my position crystal clear, since you want to try and sound smart/snarky.
Thankyou for clarifying. Though I saw that as your position.
So the Abrahamic faiths are a blight are they. Ok, its not snarky to call you out on that. You wouldn't have to go far from your home in Europe or America to find a Jewish, a Christian and a Moslem community that want nothing more than to be left alone. I cant say there wont be any extremists lurking within, but the majority will be opposed to them. Also those communities and indidivuals would have nothing to gain by being forced into 'letting go' of theri faiths because atheists want them to. Surely the choice is theirs. Neverthless If theses faith groups are are a 'blight' nonetheless what solution do you have to end it. The shining light of Atheism?
Do you really think that because people say 'we are Atheists' this is a pass that means they are immune to religious hatred or violence. History will disagree with you. In fact Dakka will disagree with you, if it was honest with itself. You are far from the only person here who wishes religion went away and is very vocal in their opposition to it, to the point where in some cases the anti-relgious comments are frequent and fervent enough one could fairly question if they have a hate issue. Sure you might not be the type to round up religious people when the revolution comes, but sad to say many other people thought so too. A lot of atheism is already radicalised, and motivated to end religion, there are quotes from atheist leaders which in come ways mimic the words of extremist Islamic hate preachers, and differ only in the target. Sure you wont join a hate mob, just as most Moslems wont either, but some would.
You also need to look at the herd mentality of humans and how people groups are dehumanised by it. An open minded educated society can be turned into hate filled fanatics in a few years, I wont Godwin the thread with examples.
I am not saying that a militant atheist rise is on the horizon, our society is more robust than that.
What I am saying is that the same hatreds poisoning religious extremists such as hardline Zionists, militant Islamists and Christian extremists is also found amongst hardcore atheists who want nothing more than for religion to go away.
One of the cruelest spiritual self deceptions in the western world today is the idea that Reason and Atheism are intertwined. Reason is a state of mind and one can be a man of reason and a man of faith, just as one can be reasoned and be an atheist or choose to be an atheist or not without being reasoned.. Reason is sadly a watchword hijacked for atheism and many atheists are brainwashed into believing that because they are atheists they are also by definition men of reason. Meanwhile for a porion of those who are not their raging and their hating gets worse and worse, fueled by a self deception of believing themselves entirely rational.
The Soviet Union and its satellite states had an identical phenomenon, and those who were deluded enough to be militant atheists convinced of their own superior rationality were easy to channel into becoming violent tools of the oppressor state.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/20 06:15:34
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 06:24:29
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Just have to lay this one out for you in case you like to propogate the myth that removing organised religion removes the violence of religion.
Oh no, let me be very very clear. I'm not talking about "organized religion", I am specifically pointing the finger at the Abrahamic faiths as being an absolute blight on humanity. Humans are violent by their very nature, and Abrahamic faith is the perfect steroid for that violence. I sincerely wish that the billions of people who hold those faiths were capable of letting go of them.
Hope that makes my position crystal clear, since you want to try and sound smart/snarky.
Blame it on human stupidity.
Scientia potentia est.
In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
2015/10/20 06:38:53
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
I could go with that. A portion of people of any religious persuasion including the choice not to believe in any gods are subject to irrational hatred of those who follow a different belief system. the proportion of those affected by these hatreds can vary based on how society is organised and if hate ideologies are propagated.
This is part of human nature and it is as you say 'human stupidity' to be so led. Atheism is not immune to this and is no different from any other faith choice.
However some people believe their milieu is inherently superior, as opposed to being right, anyone can think they are right, those who think they are superior are more dangerous. As superiority measn they have no obligation to respect the opinions or lives of others.
This illusion of superiority manifests in different ways, and is normally a radicalisation of a mundane message of the creed. So the ideal of Jews being a chosen people can lead hardcore Zionists to beleive that only Jewish life has any value, and thus dehumanise non-Jews. Militant Islamist Jihadists, those who took the Crusader oath, some militant Hindu and Buddhist sects also believed they were a special chosen.
In the case of Atheism the superiority came from being super-right. Marxism and Maoism and their offshoots are atheist doctrines. Marx is pure rationalism, as is atheism in the eyes of the Party doctrine. It was super-right and the Party elite being more correct than anyone else had the power and authority to pass judgement......
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 06:46:21
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
The majority of atheists don't, and it's wildly off topic. So stop it now. This topic is bad enough as it is without THAT whole kettle of fish being injected for some unknown reason.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2015/10/20 07:17:13
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
motyak wrote: The majority of atheists don't, and it's wildly off topic. So stop it now. This topic is bad enough as it is without THAT whole kettle of fish being injected for some unknown reason.
Sorry about that.
Scientia potentia est.
In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
2015/10/20 07:21:52
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Just to be clear that wasn't directed at you, but the general course of the thread not needing to head that way. It just got posted then so it was right below yours by chance rather than design
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2015/10/20 11:59:45
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state. The reason for each of these wars was ostensibly to "Free the Palestinians" while at the same time the leaders of most Muslims countries would make inflammatory speeches about destroying the jews and removing the Jewish faith from the Muslim holy lands. So the conflict centered around religion at the exact same time that the idea of a independent Israel was mentioned, not when it existed, but when it was first thought of after WWII.
Iron_Captain is not cherry picking, he is right in his interpretation of the law.
Irregular fighters might store weapons in a hospital, that is illegal, but it is what irregular fighters do. The culpability is local and individual. The IDF is a national armed force though, operating directly from a nation state with command resources, it has a conscious governmental control. Thus the conscious decision to bomb a hospital is not only a crime, it is a worse crime. It is a national war crime.
Also storing weapons and directing large scale ordnance are two different things. If the hospital contained WMD there would be some leeway.
The thing is those opposing terrorists are expected to be better than the terrorists, not on a par, or in this case worse. and apologists for hospital bombings share the guilt.
He is in fact cherry picking, which is different from what you are doing. You either didn't bother to read the geneva convention as well or you think that you can modify what the convention means based on the size of a countries army and how it operates in conflict. It doesn't matter that Israel has better weapons or a stronger military, the second you utilize a hospital to store weapons and munitions that hospital or school loses its protection under the Geneva convention. Hamas not only knows this,they count on it, because what looks better in the news "Israel destroys Weapons Cache" Or "Jews destroy Hospital". Hamas doesn't want military victories they want publicity victories which when people like you propagate the myth that the Israeli's slaughter thousands of innocent Palestinians, your giving them that victory on a platter.
So by your own admission then, Hamas is a terrorist organization " those opposing terrorists are expected to be better than the terrorists" and further more, I would say that Israel broadcasting its intentions internationally and then sending written warnings, phone calls and even text messages to those about to be bombed is sufficient warning. But heres the thing, not only does Israel Broadcast its intentions, put out radio warnings, send phone calls and text messages but it also will fire a single mortar infront of the target as a last warning. Then and only after every ridiculous precaution has been taken do the Israeli's bomb the target.
Do you know what most western armies do in those situations? Declare their intentions IE were here to fight in this area. And then blow up whatever the hell they want because guess what? that is how armed conflict is. Israel hamstrings itself trying to avoid casualties, HAMAS hates that and forces its own people to die so it can have its publicity wins.
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
2015/10/20 14:00:28
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
motyak wrote: The majority of atheists don't, and it's wildly off topic. So stop it now. This topic is bad enough as it is without THAT whole kettle of fish being injected for some unknown reason.
Here we go again.
Why is it off topic?
This thread is about religious violence in Israel and the occupied territories, this is inseparable from the religions concerned. Some have hypothecised that religion in general is to blame and that religion should be removed aka mandatory atheism. If those comments are allowed to stand then there should be fair reply to them.
If you want to moderate what is and what is not off topic you need to understand basic causality. This isn't an 'unknown reason' its direct chain of logic. Allow me to explain: If criticising atheism is off topic then proposing atheism is off topic which means wholecloth criticism of religion is off topic. However you didn't seem to have a problem with those comments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/20 14:42:24
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 14:31:19
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
Its pretty obvious by one specific pro-Israeli source doesnt make it pretty obvious.
Iron_Captain is not cherry picking, he is right in his interpretation of the law.
Irregular fighters might store weapons in a hospital, that is illegal, but it is what irregular fighters do. The culpability is local and individual. The IDF is a national armed force though, operating directly from a nation state with command resources, it has a conscious governmental control. Thus the conscious decision to bomb a hospital is not only a crime, it is a worse crime. It is a national war crime.
Also storing weapons and directing large scale ordnance are two different things. If the hospital contained WMD there would be some leeway.
The thing is those opposing terrorists are expected to be better than the terrorists, not on a par, or in this case worse. and apologists for hospital bombings share the guilt.
He is in fact cherry picking, which is different from what you are doing.
You either didn't bother to read the geneva convention as well or you think that you can modify what the convention means based on the size of a countries army and how it operates in conflict.
I didn't make that point. I made the point that morally there is a higher bar for a nation state over an individual. Individual terrorists do individual things, it needds to be handled like crime. A state run army however is a corporate national body and has a higher duty.
It doesn't matter that Israel has better weapons or a stronger military, the second you utilize a hospital to store weapons and munitions that hospital or school loses its protection under the Geneva convention.
Actually that isnt true. The moment terrorists store weapons in a hospital is the moment you can send in police, or soldiers in a policing role. It doesn't make the hospital a free fire target for bombing and never will.
By keeping a moral par with the terrorists by overacting as a state Israel as a society is keeping a moral par with the worst of Hamas, not even its regular members or Palestinian civilians. Can't you yet see what that means.
Hamas not only knows this,they count on it, because what looks better in the news "Israel destroys Weapons Cache" Or "Jews destroy Hospital".
Actually it would be IDF destroys hospital. Also as the IDF has been transparently been seen victimising peoples in buildings without any weapons inside by their bulldozer campaign, there is no moral high ground here.
Hamas doesn't want military victories they want publicity victories which when people like you propagate the myth that the Israeli's slaughter thousands of innocent Palestinians, your giving them that victory on a platter.
The death toll is only a myth if you are corrupted to the extent where you no longer see the dead Palestinians as human suffering. A figure for over two thousand collateral civilians deaths was given earlier on Dakka. Explain how this is not 'Israeli's slaughter thousands of innocent Palestinians'. Remember that they are also under illegal occupation.
So by your own admission then, Hamas is a terrorist organization " those opposing terrorists are expected to be better than the terrorists" and further more,
There are terrorists in Hamas, I cant speak of the organisation as a whole, not do I want to. Hamas also has a political wing, and it is unrealistic to brush them all as terrorists, especially when it is just for convenience. There was also war criminals in Israel who launch airstrikes and artillery at hospitals, knowing they are hospitals. So here is your moral high ground?
I would say that Israel broadcasting its intentions internationally and then sending written warnings, phone calls and even text messages to those about to be bombed is sufficient warning. But heres the thing, not only does Israel Broadcast its intentions, put out radio warnings, send phone calls and text messages but it also will fire a single mortar infront of the target as a last warning. Then and only after every ridiculous precaution has been taken do the Israeli's bomb the target.
How does that help those stuck in hospital beds? Where would they go. Also it doesnt in any way justify large scale infrastructure destruction, which is what Israel policy is about.
Do you know what most western armies do in those situations? Declare their intentions IE were here to fight in this area. And then blow up whatever the hell they want because guess what? that is how armed conflict is.
That isnt necessarily so. In fact that would not be excusable if there is a hospital in the area. A warning may be given, but troops would be sent in and avoid places where fighting is prohibited.
Israel hamstrings itself trying to avoid casualties,
No it doesn't. It demolished infrastructure wholescale. It bulldozes entire neighbourhoods and leaves the people with nowhere to go. Also obviously unarmed people stay to try and plead for their homes to be spared. And event witnessed directly by the worlds press, on its own, not only via Hamas.
This doesn't avoid casualties, in the case of those dispossessed fact it just changes the death from wounds to cholera. UIt also escalates further conflict.
If Israel was actually serious about avoiding casualties they would pursue a different policy. Their policy however is working, but its goal is to keep Hamas riled enough that the Palestinians are in no position to suit down for peace. Gaza is essentially a prison and most amenities the Palestinians erect to provide a quality of life are systemically reduced to rubble. This keeps the residents permanently pissed off and readily recruitable for extremism. The Israeli government doesn't fear Hamas, they fear a Ghandiesque figure rising amongst the Palestinians calling for a peaceful protest. Israel would lose their excuses to bulldoze and landgrab then, which is all this is about.
HAMAS hates that and forces its own people to die so it can have its publicity wins.
Neutral citation please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/20 14:34:40
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 15:23:20
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
It's a fact. Naming book titles which you clearly haven't read or understood doesn't mean anything.
Religious differences helped to alienate Israel from its neighbors, but it is was not a reason for the conflict.
These reasons were entirely geopolitical and secular.
2015/10/20 15:30:52
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
It's a fact. Naming book titles which you clearly haven't read or understood doesn't mean anything.
Religious differences helped to alienate Israel from its neighbors, but it is was not a reason for the conflict.
These reasons were entirely geopolitical and secular.
Clarify why you think its geopolitical and secular.
Clarify the reason(s) you think cause the conflict
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2015/10/20 15:37:54
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
It's a fact. Naming book titles which you clearly haven't read or understood doesn't mean anything.
Religious differences helped to alienate Israel from its neighbors, but it is was not a reason for the conflict.
These reasons were entirely geopolitical and secular.
Clarify why you think its geopolitical and secular.
Clarify the reason(s) you think cause the conflict
Clarify why it's not.
I'm not going to explain the whole history to you. Open a book or use google.
2015/10/20 15:40:55
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Maybe I have more in depth knowledge since NCOPD's involved courses on that subject matter.
Since you seem to be the Subject Matter Expert on this I leave you be
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2015/10/20 15:43:27
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
The situation in the levant is not separable from the three Abrahamic religions.
However there are many geopolitical and secular arguments.
All of the Levant was carved out of the Ottoman Empire and had been Arab land for longer than most western countries including European ones had been around.
Israel is a land claim which had lapsed for two thousand years, and while there was good reason for the return of Jews to Palestine a lot of secular thinking of the time was to create a homeland for Jews from a portion of Germany. Parceling out German land was happening at the time, and the Germans were responsible for the fate of the Jews which had garnered them most sympathy. Also most Jews were Europeanised.
On a purely secular level there was a reason to do this, and it was proposed as an alternate to creating the state of Israel.
Personally I think creating Israel where it was was the right decision, but that decision was controversial on many levels.
As for geopolitics:. When you add in J-street lobbying, OPEC, Suez, etc etc yes it is a geopolitical issue.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 15:55:14
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Jihadin wrote: Maybe I have more in depth knowledge since NCOPD's involved courses on that subject matter.
Since you seem to be the Subject Matter Expert on this I leave you be
Appeal to authority all you like, I've studied it at university too, so you are not impressing anyone with your snide comments.
Does the NCOPD seriously consider this a conflict primarily caused by religion? Seriously?
Religion has since become more prominent since the 1980's, and has always been part of the background, but saying it is a primary cause of the conflict is ridiculous.
2015/10/20 16:03:16
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
It doesn't matter that Israel has better weapons or a stronger military, the second you utilize a hospital to store weapons and munitions that hospital or school loses its protection under the Geneva convention.
Actually that isnt true. The moment terrorists store weapons in a hospital is the moment you can send in police, or soldiers in a policing role. It doesn't make the hospital a free fire target for bombing and never will.
I guess America didn't get that memo...remember that Afghan hospital they bombed?
2015/10/20 16:22:49
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
It's a fact. Naming book titles which you clearly haven't read or understood doesn't mean anything.
Religious differences helped to alienate Israel from its neighbors, but it is was not a reason for the conflict.
These reasons were entirely geopolitical and secular.
Clarify why you think its geopolitical and secular.
Clarify the reason(s) you think cause the conflict
Clarify why it's not.
I'm not going to explain the whole history to you. Open a book or use google.
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
It's a fact. Naming book titles which you clearly haven't read or understood doesn't mean anything.
Religious differences helped to alienate Israel from its neighbors, but it is was not a reason for the conflict.
These reasons were entirely geopolitical and secular.
Clarify why you think its geopolitical and secular.
Clarify the reason(s) you think cause the conflict
Clarify why it's not.
I'm not going to explain the whole history to you. Open a book or use google.
Burden of proof is on you
Because? Love to hear your logic on this one. I'll humour you never the less.
For a quick example open up the wikipedia page on the article and scan through firstly for the history, so you can learn why this was originally a political problem, and secondly for anything pertaining to religion as a cause for the conflict.
Hint for the second part: You won't find it.
Almost all other books on the source material which are not written by Israelis trying to make themselves out as a victim follow the pattern.
2015/10/20 17:06:13
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
I cant see any argument for the Israeli-Arab conflict not being geopolitical.
It involves all of the worlds major powers on some level, it is heavily tied in with the oil states than their foreign policy. It is tied directly into massive lobbying blocs in the US and some European countries and the lobbying cannot be separated from the will of the elected governments of those countries.
It also links to European Holocaust guilt, Islamophobia, immigration, and extremism.
The Arab Israeli conflicts touch the entire globe either directly or indirectly. It is very clearly geopolitical.
I will leave for others to claim it is entirely religious or entirely secular. It is obvious at least to me that it is both, but I will be happy to hear arguments either way.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2015/10/20 17:09:58
Subject: Re:Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Peter Wiggin wrote: I blame it on the respective Abrahamic faiths involved. Another example of how god so loved the world that he gave it humanity.
Ugh.
Modern conflict around Israel and Palestine didn't heavily centre around religion until the 1980's, which saw a rise of Islamism in the region.
Whilst religious sites and groups have always played key roles in the conflict, the heart of the issue has always been secular.
Groups like Hamas (which was formed in 1988) have benefitted from the conflict, as they offer the dejected Palestinian people an alternative to the main politicians, politicians who have been unable to make any progress due to their actions being blocked by both Israel and the US. If diplomacy was actually given a chance, then the number of extremist-religious groups would decrease.
Lets start with this one....WRONG. Go read "Six Days of War" and "The Yom Kippur War" by MIchael Oren and Abraham Rabinovich. Its pretty obvious that the entire conflict involving Israel and the entirety of the Middle East, has been because the Israeli's are Jewish, and the Muslims of the region can't allow another religion to exist in any kind of free state.
It's a fact. Naming book titles which you clearly haven't read or understood doesn't mean anything.
Religious differences helped to alienate Israel from its neighbors, but it is was not a reason for the conflict.
These reasons were entirely geopolitical and secular.
Clarify why you think its geopolitical and secular.
Clarify the reason(s) you think cause the conflict
Clarify why it's not.
I'm not going to explain the whole history to you. Open a book or use google.
Burden of proof is on you
Because? Love to hear your logic on this one. I'll humour you never the less.
For a quick example open up the wikipedia page on the article and scan through firstly for the history, so you can learn why this was originally a political problem, and secondly for anything pertaining to religion as a cause for the conflict.
Hint for the second part: You won't find it.
Almost all other books on the source material which are not written by Israelis trying to make themselves out as a victim follow the pattern.
Because it's basic fething manners in a debate. If you make a claim, you back it up. Otherwise everyone has the right to dismiss it out of hand.
As for Geopolitical vs religion...It's both, and always has been.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/20 17:12:43
2015/10/20 17:57:36
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Orlanth, your personal feelings and beliefs aren't worth a damn in a debate so keep them out of this. If you are going to state facts that don't exist then stop. Also if your going to quote to me how i am wrong about the geneva convention then you need to back it up with facts instead of how you think the geneva convention states it. Also HAMAS is listed as a terrorist organization, yes it does have a political wing, but the problem is that the political wing instigates rebellion and acts of terrorism. Hence the entire organization is listed as a TERRORIST organization.
Big Blind Bill, not only do I own those two books, I have read them several times. my copy of the Yom Kippur war is actually destroyed basically, but luckily for me I have the hardback version of Six Days of War and I can literally see it on my book shelf from where im sitting. I also have "History of Israel's War of Independence Vol III.
If your going to throw my evidence out the window because it was written by a Jewish author and then state your position as fact because you read it on Wikipedia im going to have to tell you that your argument holds no water. I have credible sources of known academic backgrounds, you have Wikipedia.
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
2015/10/20 19:13:20
Subject: Recent terrorism wave of knife attacks in Israel
Ghazkuul wrote: Orlanth, your personal feelings and beliefs aren't worth a damn in a debate so keep them out of this.
Sorry I didnt know this thread was for Zionists only.
By the way are you trying to argue that you are not personally engaged and are posting from a genuine bias free neutral point of view. I would like to see how you back that one up.
If you are going to state facts that don't exist then stop.
My facts did exist. For example, Dakka was able to back up with facts that Israel has killed several thousands Palestinian civilians in its campaign as collateral damage.
Also if your going to quote to me how i am wrong about the geneva convention then you need to back it up with facts instead of how you think the geneva convention states it.
I didn't think I needed to prove to anyone that bombing hospital would be considered a war crime. You have to provide proof that a hospital not only had enemy combatants in it, but that they were firing from that location.
Having armed Hamas in a hospital is not a crime, a hospital related to a faction can have armed guards.
In fact it is the duty of hospital staff and guards to defend their patients. A lot of medical staff in front line hospitals don't know this, I recall tales that some were shocked when told of this stipulation in the Geneva conventions by ICRC legal professionals in military law, when I spoke to one of them on the subject.
So far all you have said was that Israel bombed a Palestinian hospital because Hamas had weapons stored there. You made no proofs that the weapons were illegal, and certainly gave no testimony to suggest that the hospital itself was uased as a figing platform. The only circumstancs in which an attack can be orchestrated legally, and then with caveats.
Also HAMAS is listed as a terrorist organization, yes it does have a political wing, but the problem is that the political wing instigates rebellion and acts of terrorism. Hence the entire organization is listed as a TERRORIST organization.
Actually no. For example Sinn Fein is a political wing of the Provisional IRA. Because Sinn Fein of itself doesnt commit attacks it is a political wing and not a terrorist organisation.
Hamas political wing can claim the same.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
The Undying Spawn of Shub-Niggurath 
