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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/02 16:10:22


 
   
Made in us
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




TX, US

I run AS, so a Seraphim unit with 4 Infernos works well for me… T2 they deepstrike in cover and hidden for secondaries, T3 they move 12 and advance (D6” + 1”) close to something, then shoot it with a reroll. Or just use it as a board harassment / denial unit.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

But 22% is a big cost increase and most of that the deepstrike for secondaries the board denial and even some harassment you can accomplish without the pistols
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I know there's been a good bit of talk about Seraphim being mostly useless now, but I've been having good success with them.

I have 5 from the collector's set, so a plasma pistol and power sword Superior, and 4 bolt pistol seraphim, and I've been starting them on the board. I usually use a hymn from a nearby Dialogus to boost their invuln to a 4+ and then they run to center board to claim an objective (usually the Sacred Shrine for our secondary Defend the Shrine).

With the 4++ and using terrain, I've been pleased by their performance each time, and they attract a good bit of firepower. A very worthwhile unit in my opinion for skirmishing on objectives early game while the rest of your army gets in to position.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I cant see how a hyper mobile unit with a flame attack is useless, especially at their points.

Name of the game is scoring secondaries, and seraphim will do that quite well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/06 17:09:32


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Lootloader wrote:
I know there's been a good bit of talk about Seraphim being mostly useless now, but I've been having good success with them.

I have 5 from the collector's set, so a plasma pistol and power sword Superior, and 4 bolt pistol seraphim, and I've been starting them on the board. I usually use a hymn from a nearby Dialogus to boost their invuln to a 4+ and then they run to center board to claim an objective (usually the Sacred Shrine for our secondary Defend the Shrine).

With the 4++ and using terrain, I've been pleased by their performance each time, and they attract a good bit of firepower. A very worthwhile unit in my opinion for skirmishing on objectives early game while the rest of your army gets in to position.

It's mostly Inferno Pistol Seraphim that are essentially useless (or at the very least sub-optimal). 70pts for a bare-bones squad, or 90pts for a squad with dual Hand Flamers are a solid unit for the cost IMHO. They mainly suffer from being inessential, after your Canoness, Battle Sisters, Retributors, Repentia, etc you're going to have to free up some points to take them over some other choice.

   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





U02dah4 wrote:
Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Terrain on a table should not allow rets to see the board entirely, so you are restricted there.
I don't expect 4 infernos to kill a healthy target, but finishing off a wounded unit trying to hide is well within their task
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Terrain on a table should not allow rets to see the board entirely, so you are restricted there.
I don't expect 4 infernos to kill a healthy target, but finishing off a wounded unit trying to hide is well within their task


I think the inferno pistols have a place as well as that starter skirmishing unit. They can run up to a mid-board objective, score some points, and then if the opponent has ignored them, fly in to a weak target and finish them. Conversely if you go second, and your opponent moves to the mid-board objectives, starting off your assault on their units with inferno seraphim is not the worst thing in the world against elite-style armies.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Terrain on a table should not allow rets to see the board entirely, so you are restricted there.
I don't expect 4 infernos to kill a healthy target, but finishing off a wounded unit trying to hide is well within their task


Most boards including GW terrain examples with rets coming in from both sides you'll get a line to most large targets sure infantry will hide but your not targeting them

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/metawatch-warhammer-40000-building-beautiful-balanced-battlefields-for-grand-tournament-play/

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/06 21:47:10


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Sisters take the win at the Call to Arms 5-round RTT in New Zealand.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-rumblings-down-under/

Looks like Valorous Heart is still plenty viable despite my misgivings, and the 20-model BSS seems to have worked well. What's interesting to me is that the list has a lot of melee threats; really just as many as in a Bloody Rose list. I could see Sacresants or especially Zephyrim working well even outside of BR, but this list had not one but TWO big units of Repentia in addition to those. Mortifiers and Pengines, of course, don't care about Orders and are therefore good in any list, and we see that borne out here. One thing I really love about the list is the tanky Canoness, with the VH warlord trait, the Mantle of Ophelia, and The Emperor's Grace blessing.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Repentia are fine w/o BR.

BR are just the only order that actually buff them.

*usually runs them in min VH squads in smaller, casual games*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it, the more I like the big sister blob. It's a terrible waste of points, but I think that's what makes it work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/08 08:57:14


   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Lammia wrote:
Repentia are fine w/o BR.

BR are just the only order that actually buff them.

*usually runs them in min VH squads in smaller, casual games*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it, the more I like the big sister blob. It's a terrible waste of points, but I think that's what makes it work.

I like the idea of big sister blobs, 4 special weapons (5 if you slap a combi-weapon on the Superior) is nothing to scoff at, especially if you plan on hitting them with Defenders of the Faith and getting them on a crucial objective. They're also more efficient for stacking buffs on with the amount of real estate they can take up. I feel like they work best with Our Martyred Lady though, because then they can maximize the bonuses for being below starting strength without too much of a hit to their effectiveness. Valorous Heart seem like the 2nd best option for these big blobs though. That said, I'm thinking of running my OoOML Sisters in primarily 10-woman units to be a bit more point- and resource-efficient, with a couple smaller, 5-woman units for sacrificial purposes or backfield objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/08 13:51:38


   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Damage output with big blob doesn't matter too much. In my mind, you take the big blob and Vahl for 'While we stand, we fight' and 'Defend the Shrine'. Making the other player make the choice of killing good stuff or stopping you score a lot of free secondary points.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sisters take the win at the Call to Arms 5-round RTT in New Zealand.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-rumblings-down-under/

Looks like Valorous Heart is still plenty viable despite my misgivings, and the 20-model BSS seems to have worked well. What's interesting to me is that the list has a lot of melee threats; really just as many as in a Bloody Rose list. I could see Sacresants or especially Zephyrim working well even outside of BR, but this list had not one but TWO big units of Repentia in addition to those. Mortifiers and Pengines, of course, don't care about Orders and are therefore good in any list, and we see that borne out here. One thing I really love about the list is the tanky Canoness, with the VH warlord trait, the Mantle of Ophelia, and The Emperor's Grace blessing.


My guess is that those melee options rely on the fact that most of Admech and Drukhari's objective camping options are made out of tissue paper and rely on speed.
Without Bloody Rose, Repentia and Zephyrim both barely scratch anything with a decent save/wound count. He was banking on killing witches and incubi and it appears that he lucked out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 14:03:07


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Without br those repentia are still putting out 27A (with a priest) hitting 75% wounding on 2's vs most things with a repentia superior ap3 d2 that's not light weight (Sure 36 is better but it's mostly overkill) I mean 27 on avg kill 14 intercessors

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/09 15:20:45


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

ERJAK wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sisters take the win at the Call to Arms 5-round RTT in New Zealand.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-rumblings-down-under/

Looks like Valorous Heart is still plenty viable despite my misgivings, and the 20-model BSS seems to have worked well. What's interesting to me is that the list has a lot of melee threats; really just as many as in a Bloody Rose list. I could see Sacresants or especially Zephyrim working well even outside of BR, but this list had not one but TWO big units of Repentia in addition to those. Mortifiers and Pengines, of course, don't care about Orders and are therefore good in any list, and we see that borne out here. One thing I really love about the list is the tanky Canoness, with the VH warlord trait, the Mantle of Ophelia, and The Emperor's Grace blessing.


My guess is that those melee options rely on the fact that most of Admech and Drukhari's objective camping options are made out of tissue paper and rely on speed.
Without Bloody Rose, Repentia and Zephyrim both barely scratch anything with a decent save/wound count. He was banking on killing witches and incubi and it appears that he lucked out.

10 Zephyrim put out 31 attacks, and that's without being Bloody Rose or having a Priest use War Hymn on them. That's kinda good, especially with the Zephyrim-specific strat (that is not order-locked). That's why I think they are a very strong melee unit. Repentia do seem subpar in a non-BR list, but mostly that's down to having too few attacks to kill anything big. War Hymn can at least partially solve that problem as the poster above pointed out (although they are only wounding on 2's against small gribblies), and as he stated they are very mean to Marines (who despite being less powerful than the new hotness armies are still very very popular).

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




I mean, a non-BR Repentia Squad with just a Superior doesn't one shot a Knight. But it will wipe anything smaller...

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I'm just thinking of catapulting them into front lines and s6 +1 to wound is 2+ up to t5
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




U02dah4 wrote:
Without br those repentia are still putting out 27A (with a priest) hitting 75% wounding on 2's vs most things with a repentia superior ap3 d2 that's not light weight (Sure 36 is better but it's mostly overkill) I mean 27 on avg kill 14 intercessors


Yes, if you dedicate 65pts and a CP to them, they DO have the ability to be almost as good as baseline bloody rose repentia. I agree.

As for comments on Zephyrim, 31 attacks at S4 is fine for killing witches and blowing 2CP on them will give them a shot against intercessors.

Ultimately VH repentia(which is a thing that makes me throw up in my mouth a little) and VH Zephyrim were as successful as they were because the armies that are meta right now don't require big heavy hitters to kill them (or for the invincible Skittarii brick, still shrug off heavy hitters). For the Zephyrim especially, if you can already kill your targets with their baseline output, using your conviction on bolstering their defense is absolutely the most efficient option.

Just keep in mind that GK and Tsons are coming up soon and those are both armies that traditionally make strong deathstars that may well demand the extra damage.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I am still a fan of the Ebon Chalice option. Still being able to guarantee at least 1 6 on the charge when necessary is pretty powerful, especially if you are building around more independent unit operations.

Especially since they get two sacred rites, which can be pretty significant. +1 advance and charge combined with the ability to guarantee a 6 means a minimum of 8 and native reroll from the banner for zephyrim. Add on exploding 6s and I think the combination means they are in a solid place compared to Bloody rose just because of the reliability of making a charge.

Also a guaranteed 6 at the start of the game is really good for the miraculous ability range.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/10 01:26:09


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Has anyone else looked at the new OoML rules? I need to gauge someone else's initial reaction beyond the generally saccharine Goonhammer.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The new rules are good - makes OoML better without making them an auto take, power wise I think they landed in a really good spot. It could also mean we see more variety in lists as you're encouraged to build really differently with OoML.

The relic blade + WL trait cannoness I think has genuine play - no one will want to go anywhere near her and it's another solid mortal wound option. I don't think she's an auto take, but I think she's worth considering in a lot of lists.
Also, while obviously not as good, it finally gives a smash palatine option, which is fun at least.

Some of the shooting out of turn tools are potentially really interesting, and give a few more ways to get the 3pt turn on the miracle dice secondary, although feel a bit too unreliable to make a strategy around. Sometimes your Retributors will shoot back and murder something, sometimes you'll roll low and feel bad...

All in all it feels a lot like the Sisters book in generally to me - it seems almost underwhelming to be getting well balanced rules at the same time as Admech get even sillier (I with 11 pt battle sisters were as good as 10pt veteran Skitarii...) but once people start playing it I think they'll be happy with where it lands. And Skitarii can't stay so cheap forever right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/10 16:11:50


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




shabadoit wrote:
The new rules are good - makes OoML better without making them an auto take, power wise I think they landed in a really good spot. It could also mean we see more variety in lists as you're encouraged to build really differently with OoML.

The relic blade + WL trait cannoness I think has genuine play - no one will want to go anywhere near her and it's another solid mortal wound option. I don't think she's an auto take, but I think she's worth considering in a lot of lists.
Also, while obviously not as good, it finally gives a smash palatine option, which is fun at least.

Some of the shooting out of turn tools are potentially really interesting, and give a few more ways to get the 3pt turn on the miracle dice secondary, although feel a bit too unreliable to make a strategy around. Sometimes your Retributors will shoot back and murder something, sometimes you'll roll low and feel bad...

All in all it feels a lot like the Sisters book in generally to me - it seems almost underwhelming to be getting well balanced rules at the same time as Admech get even sillier (I with 11 pt battle sisters were as good as 10pt veteran Skitarii...) but once people start playing it I think they'll be happy with where it lands. And Skitarii can't stay so cheap forever right?


See this is interesting and goes to show the different perspectives people can have on the same rules because my initial reaction, which I admit might be in the minority, is that the rules presented for OoML range from 'does nothing' to 'maybe for the memes?'.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





My SR rose has 2x5 Repentia. maybe they will kill something, great if they don't, but dying gives me a nice MD to recycle.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

OoML is probably the best miracle dice generator still but you have to remember the new ooml supplement is out next week and this will likely improve them
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Not sure the new book helps us all that much. Martyred Lady does get slightly better, but there's nothing there that's amazing. And that's a good thing for list variety; we don't need any auto-include stuff because it leads to cookie-cutter armies.

I do like the Imagifier relic though; it makes it so you can pretend you're Bloody Rose for a turn with the extra attacks. Will it be enough to turn Martyred Lady into a melee Order? Definitely not, but powering up your Sacresants/Repentia for a turn can't be a bad thing.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 ZergSmasher wrote:
Not sure the new book helps us all that much. Martyred Lady does get slightly better, but there's nothing there that's amazing. And that's a good thing for list variety; we don't need any auto-include stuff because it leads to cookie-cutter armies.

I do like the Imagifier relic though; it makes it so you can pretend you're Bloody Rose for a turn with the extra attacks. Will it be enough to turn Martyred Lady into a melee Order? Definitely not, but powering up your Sacresants/Repentia for a turn can't be a bad thing.


The big problem with it is that it makes you take an imagifier in OoML.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Has the new supplement been spoiled somewhere?
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

U02dah4 wrote:
Has the new supplement been spoiled somewhere?

Goonhammer has done a review at least of the Imperial stuff in there, and I suspect others have as well.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




ERJAK wrote:
shabadoit wrote:
The new rules are good - makes OoML better without making them an auto take, power wise I think they landed in a really good spot. It could also mean we see more variety in lists as you're encouraged to build really differently with OoML.

The relic blade + WL trait cannoness I think has genuine play - no one will want to go anywhere near her and it's another solid mortal wound option. I don't think she's an auto take, but I think she's worth considering in a lot of lists.
Also, while obviously not as good, it finally gives a smash palatine option, which is fun at least.

Some of the shooting out of turn tools are potentially really interesting, and give a few more ways to get the 3pt turn on the miracle dice secondary, although feel a bit too unreliable to make a strategy around. Sometimes your Retributors will shoot back and murder something, sometimes you'll roll low and feel bad...

All in all it feels a lot like the Sisters book in generally to me - it seems almost underwhelming to be getting well balanced rules at the same time as Admech get even sillier (I with 11 pt battle sisters were as good as 10pt veteran Skitarii...) but once people start playing it I think they'll be happy with where it lands. And Skitarii can't stay so cheap forever right?


See this is interesting and goes to show the different perspectives people can have on the same rules because my initial reaction, which I admit might be in the minority, is that the rules presented for OoML range from 'does nothing' to 'maybe for the memes?'.
I think they are solidly in 'maybe for the memes?'

I think VH's undying Canoness is both more powerful and funnier than MW OoOML Canoness. Out of turn attacks look interesting, but I've never felt like I've done anything with it by using it on anything short of an Immolator/Exocist, which are bad.

   
 
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