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Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

chaos0xomega wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
The two look exactly the same...which is kinda my point.
There's zero possibility they will not allow for you to build a minimum sized unit out of the box if you build the HQ.


If by "zero" you mean "every".

Want a Big Mek in Mega Armor? Build it from the Meganobz box and you have 2 left over Meganobz that aren't big enough to be a minimum sized unit.
Want a Flesh Eater Courts Crypt Haunter/Flayer Courtier? Build it from a box of Crypt Haunters/Flayers, you have 2 left over Haunters/Flayers that aren't big enough to be a minimum sized unit.
Want a FEC Crypt Ghast Courtier? Build from a box of Crypt Ghouls, leaving you 19 other Crypt Ghouls, which is big enough for a minimum sized unit of 10, but gives you 9 extra Ghouls that you won't want to field short of a full sized unit.
How about if you want an Adeptus Custodes Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike? Gotta buy a box of Vertus Praetors to build it, leaving you 2 leftover Custodes on Jetbikes that you can't field as part of a minimum unit. Same with Shield Captains wearing Allarus Terminator armor, gotta buy the box of Allarus Terminators, leaving you 2 leftover dudes that you can't field as a min unit.

Black Templars Sword Brethren are 5 model boxed set, minimum unit size of 4 because you can build a hero.
Stormdrake Guard and Fulminators literally got a unique unit of 1 model that is tied to you fielding the alt build of a hero from a box.
Evocators (on foot and Dracoline) used to have a 4 and 2 model unit but no longer do.

We'll have to wait and see if Maggotkin get a similar rule for Pusgoyle Blightlords.
   
Made in gb
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

My guess is Vigilators (the sword-armed SoS), who are staying as an Elites choice, are going to be min-4 units (and maybe also have better stats), while the bolter (Troops) and flamer (FA) versions stay as min-5.

“By striving to do the impossible, man has always achieved what is possible. Those who have cautiously done no more than they believed possible have never taken a single step forward.” - Mikhail Bakunin

If your response to "Nazis are bad!" is "No, no! It's BLM and Antifa and Sigmarxism that are the real problem!" then you are the real problem. 
   
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Germany

GW would literally rather return to making rules for units without models than stop making Marines for a second, huh?

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
If by "zero" you mean "every".
Black Templars Sword Brethren are 5 model boxed set, minimum unit size of 4 because you can build a hero.
Stormdrake Guard and Fulminators literally got a unique unit of 1 model that is tied to you fielding the alt build of a hero from a box.
Evocators (on foot and Dracoline) used to have a 4 and 2 model unit but no longer do.
So you found examples where they have, and he found examples where they haven't. That means you're both right, and both wrong.

The only consistency is GW's inconsistency.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
GW would literally rather return to making rules for units without models than stop making Marines for a second, huh?
Custodes aren't Marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/01 00:12:29


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Tampa,FL USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
GW would literally rather return to making rules for units without models than stop making Marines for a second, huh?
Custodes aren't Marines.



Much as Wha-Mu annoys me, that was kind of their point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 00:16:47


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






While it is indeed a shame that GW can't be bothered to make an actual model for the Sisters leader, I wouldn't ever complain about getting such expanded unit options. Even if it's just done by relabeling a squad leader.

GW has real consistency issues, as H.B.M.C. is so fond of pointing out, and I'd rather see a lot more armies win the rules lottery like this than get the dodgy upgrade option limitations some units got in the last year.

Hurray for (inconsistent, possibly accidental) baby steps!

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Katah rules are garbage. Why do they think that 'pick x options from a list pre game before you know pretty much anything about how the game is going and then hope you didn't pick badly' is good rules design?

I genuinely didn't think they could come up with an army wide rule as bad as command protocols for necrons and to be fair these are not as bad. Dear god it was close though.


Drugs? Insanity? Drug-induced insanity?

If that isn't your default answer to what the current rules designers do, you're being gracious.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

 Geifer wrote:
If that isn't your default answer to what the current rules designers do, you're being gracious.

No, as was explained to me when I went to work for GW, the actual answer is "We hire for attitude/enthusiasm, not skills/ability/experience."

That's not to say they deliberately hire incompetent fanboys, but they're not trying to recruit the best of the best, either. They'll take a barely-competent, inexperienced designer who absolutely loves, lives and breathes Warhammer, rather than a highly-skilled and experienced designer who only vaguely knows what a Space Marine is.

So we get rules that are just about functional, but 'fluffy', not the sparklingly elegant, finely balanced, cutting-edge-of-modern-game-design system that a lot of Dakka-ites seem to want.

“By striving to do the impossible, man has always achieved what is possible. Those who have cautiously done no more than they believed possible have never taken a single step forward.” - Mikhail Bakunin

If your response to "Nazis are bad!" is "No, no! It's BLM and Antifa and Sigmarxism that are the real problem!" then you are the real problem. 
   
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It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
   
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I don't mind a fluff heavy approach and don't really expect a perfectly balanced game but to me if a rule is incredibly situational, too random in how it works, unreliable/rarely triggers then it is not fun and if its not fun then I don't care how fluffy it is.

Command protocols are a perfect example of this. They're fluffy and the bonuses (well, some of them) are decent. However, its very difficult to get them to work reliably (protocol of the eternal guardian only to find you're going first for example) and so more often than not buffs go off at the wrong time and become useless. They're also taxed because you need nobles and characters to make them work and you lose them if those characters die. Living metal and reanimation protocols are similarly fluffy but rarely effectual rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 14:40:35


 
   
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Portland

Yeah, bad rules don't do that much to improve the "feel" of a unit except on paper. That flavorful niche special rule or just poorly thought out and unnecessarily difficult to execute mechanic is more likely IMHO to do the exact opposite of make the unit feel right, in practice. Bad design space is worse than unused design space, as it's information that gets in the way of more intuitively understanding or more quickly reviewing/assessing a unit. It's fine for characters or other rarer units, but such a chore in practice and across armies, worse than bloat even, it tends to just turn into noise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 15:01:22



My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.
   
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Cardiff

 Ordana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.


They do now.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Exalted Beastlord




 Ordana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.


Individual warriors (warrior-philosopher elites or whatever hogwash). GW rarely understands the distinction between soldier and warrior, and Guard are one of the few where it even vaguely feels they've latched onto the idea of 'soldiers' and only because the core of the army concept says they have to. Custodes are about as far from the concept as its possible to be.

That they just bounced on doing a sisters lieutenant (or whatever) is weird and annoying. Would have been better for the Shadowthrone box than 'leather custodes with a hackmaster+12'

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/12/01 15:26:10


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Ordana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.

That was during the Great Crusade and its aftermath...and it was the observations of an Astartes.
   
Made in us
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One password recovery later.

An online friend from the DMC area was not too pleased with this Ka'tah change. His problem was the added complexity, at least pre-game. I, myself, feel it's a flawed mechanic because it rewards you for holding to a rigid battle plan. I, as a Space Wolves player, like to have a pre-game plan for initial deployments and what to do generally. However, I recognize that plans must be able to adapt on the fly. This is such a universal truth it has become a maxim - "No plan survives first contact".

As to whether or not it's thematic, I feel it isn't. While the observation of the Custodes fighting style is indeed from Argel Tal's perspective, I feel that they are supposed to be individual warriors. Each Custodes is a massive investment on the Imperium's part, and they are only committed when circumstances are dire. As the Emperor himself said:

Each one of the Ten Thousand represents genetic lore acquired over many lifetimes. Each one of you is unique, a work of art never to be repeated. I am miserly with your lives, where I would spend so many others without a thought.


Furthermore, each Custodes' individuality is encouraged. They are taught arts, diplomacy, geography, history, etc. They are each forces in their own right, both politically and militarily. This is the nature of the Imperium's superhuman soldiers - compressing the fighting power of perhaps many hundreds of men into a couple of bodies.

Vast unified maneuvers and teamwork are an Astartes thing. They are a "band of brothers", whereas Custodes are quite the opposite.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/01 16:31:10


Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

-Roboute Guilliman
 
   
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 Duskweaver wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
If that isn't your default answer to what the current rules designers do, you're being gracious.

No, as was explained to me when I went to work for GW, the actual answer is "We hire for attitude/enthusiasm, not skills/ability/experience."

That's not to say they deliberately hire incompetent fanboys, but they're not trying to recruit the best of the best, either. They'll take a barely-competent, inexperienced designer who absolutely loves, lives and breathes Warhammer, rather than a highly-skilled and experienced designer who only vaguely knows what a Space Marine is.

So we get rules that are just about functional, but 'fluffy', not the sparklingly elegant, finely balanced, cutting-edge-of-modern-game-design system that a lot of Dakka-ites seem to want.


Let's not forget that if developers are fans they are also less likely to think of themselves as employees offering their expertise against remuneration and more as a "part of the family". Thus being more likely to work more for less, in the name of being paid with "passion".

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.

That was during the Great Crusade and its aftermath...and it was the observations of an Astartes.


No, it's literally all over the 8th edition Custodes book. They're individuals. They fight as individuals, each making their own individual calculations about how to respond in every given situation. This is from literally the first page of text in the codex, second paragraph:

However, where the warriors
of the Adeptus Astartes employ squad-level
tactics, their battle-brothers functioning as
a cohesive whole, the Custodians fight as
individuals.



The idea that these paragons of individuality have to get their boss to write down their tactics on a piece of paper before the battle and then decide ahead of time when he's going to pull out the paper and remind them what their tactics were is beyond silly. The new rules are about as far from fluffy as you could possibly get.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.

That was during the Great Crusade and its aftermath...and it was the observations of an Astartes.

If you're going to play apologetics, at least try not to be so egregiously wrong.

'However, where the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes employ squad-level tactics, their battle-brothers functioning as a cohesive whole, the Custodians fight as individuals.'
Codex: Adeptus Custodes (8th ed.), pg.6
   
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 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
It should also be pointed that getting the "feel" of units / models right, matching the aesthetics and themes developed (pre-rules) by the artists, etc.. is a much higher priority to them then the "balance" a lot of Dakka obsesses about as the alleged primary goal of game design.
But that is part of the problem. The Kata rules do not thematically fit with Custodes, they are not an army that moves and acts as one, all doing the same thing. They are a force of individual soldiers that do not fight as a unit.

That was during the Great Crusade and its aftermath...and it was the observations of an Astartes.

If you're going to play apologetics, at least try not to be so egregiously wrong.

'However, where the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes employ squad-level tactics, their battle-brothers functioning as a cohesive whole, the Custodians fight as individuals.'
Codex: Adeptus Custodes (8th ed.), pg.6


Yeah, and they compare that to "lions" apparently.

Has anyone told a GW writer about lions? how lions do? Because youre either calling adeptus custodes extremely lazy (to be fair, I guess they did sleep for like 10,000 years) or youre calling them...not...people who fight as individuals...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 17:38:42


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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At the Gates of Azyr

Oh BALLS! Seems the Golden Boys fans are in a tizzy!

As a fan myself, I'm willing to give this whole "Kung-Fu" stuff a try with my Custodes. It's really hard to say that this isn't "fluffy" for them. Between reading, the codex (8th), White Dwarf articles, Master of Mankind, Valdor, etc etc I'd agree with HBMC statement of GW's consistent inconsistency.

After 10,000 years of fluff, GW is still trying to find the Custodes "Voice".

It is what it is.....
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Oh BALLS! Seems the Golden Boys fans are in a tizzy!

As a fan myself, I'm willing to give this whole "Kung-Fu" stuff a try with my Custodes. It's really hard to say that this isn't "fluffy" for them. Between reading, the codex (8th), White Dwarf articles, Master of Mankind, Valdor, etc etc I'd agree with HBMC statement of GW's consistent inconsistency.

After 10,000 years of fluff, GW is still trying to find the Custodes "Voice".

It is what it is.....


Please, when you do, write a note for your opponent and tell them they should open it at the start of their third turn. The note should read:

"During your command phase, inform your opponent that their kung fu is weak."

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:


Has anyone told a GW writer about lions? how lions do? Because youre either calling adeptus custodes extremely lazy (to be fair, I guess they did sleep for like 10,000 years) or youre calling them...not...people who fight as individuals...


Lions don't fight at all. They're predators, they run from anything that isn't an easy kill. But putting that aside...

I dunno, I think the comparison actually sort-of works. They're not saying they fight individually, they're saying they fight as individuals even when in a group. I'm not sure that's really wrong re: how lions hunt. I don't think lions have a boss who writes down their tactics on a piece of paper and then pulls out the piece of paper telling the peon lions what to do. They each make their own judgments about what the situation entails. They do it in a coordinated fashion because they're smart and understand the value of working together, but not because anybody's relaying tactics to the other lions. I don't think any lion is raising her paw and telling them to use the Bitey Bitey Kata as opposed to the Run Around in Circles Kata or the Roll Over And Ask For Belly Scratches Kata.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/01 19:20:47


 
   
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Vigo. Spain.

I think the comparison was about MALE lions vs astartes as a wolves pack. That works much better because female lions also hunts as a pack.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


Has anyone told a GW writer about lions? how lions do? Because youre either calling adeptus custodes extremely lazy (to be fair, I guess they did sleep for like 10,000 years) or youre calling them...not...people who fight as individuals...


Lions don't fight at all. They're predators, they run from anything that isn't an easy kill. But putting that aside...

I dunno, I think the comparison actually sort-of works. They're not saying they fight individually, they're saying they fight as individuals even when in a group. I'm not sure that's really wrong re: how lions hunt. I don't think lions have a boss who writes down their tactics on a piece of paper and then pulls out the piece of paper telling the peon lions what to do. They each make their own judgments about what the situation entails. They do it in a coordinated fashion because they're smart and understand the value of working together, but not because anybody's relaying tactics to the other lions. I don't think any lion is raising her paw and telling them to use the Bitey Bitey Kata as opposed to the Run Around in Circles Kata or the Roll Over And Ask For Belly Scratches Kata.


Right. Like every pack animal behaves during a hunt. Including wolves - the thing that theyre being used to 'contrast' against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
I think the comparison was about MALE lions vs astartes as a wolves pack. That works much better because female lions also hunts as a pack.


OK, so it is an apt comparison with how they sat around doing nothing for 99% of their existence then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 19:24:53


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I think they just used Lions because they're similar colours (gold) and bigger than Wolves. Plus the height of masculinity and all that stuff. It's not great, maybe a Bear would have been a better choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 19:28:12


 
   
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Does it matter?
   
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Hellacious Havoc






 Nurglitch wrote:
Does it matter?


Hush you ! I for one could read thousand of posts about the inaccuracy of comparing the psycho-social organisation of large land mammals and an order of fictional golden super men from the 41st millennia. I mean , it's not as if Lion were used as symbols of regal might and authority for centuries and were now shorthand for "strong manly cool man".

I mean, yes it is quite silly.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
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Birmingham, UK

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Does it matter?


Hush you ! I for one could read thousand of posts about the inaccuracy of comparing the psycho-social organisation of large land mammals and an order of fictional golden super men from the 41st millennia. I mean , it's not as if Lion were used as symbols of regal might and authority for centuries and were now shorthand for "strong manly cool man".

I mean, yes it is quite silly.


Think of poor Jeremy the Lion.


   
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

"They're like lions because they either strut around looking magnificently useless, or laze about doing nothing productive, while the females actually do all the fething work." - Tanau Aleya probably

“By striving to do the impossible, man has always achieved what is possible. Those who have cautiously done no more than they believed possible have never taken a single step forward.” - Mikhail Bakunin

If your response to "Nazis are bad!" is "No, no! It's BLM and Antifa and Sigmarxism that are the real problem!" then you are the real problem. 
   
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 Grimskul wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


GOOD fething lord no are you kidding man, GW would have to make a new sculpt for sisters of silence!!!

AND THEY SHALL KNOW. ONE. SPRUEEEE!


It is really funny that GW has like an endless supply of primaris lieutenants sculpts in their closet or something but they can't be bothered with one official clampack HQ model for SoS.


It's economics. How many people would really buy such a model? Given I have NEVER seen SoS on the tabletop, outside of promotional pictures and stuff like that, I have a hard time believing anyone even uses these models in the Custodes book. I doubt that's going to change. SoS seems like the most useless thing when we have SoB already. IMO.
   
 
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