Switch Theme:

" One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

He can't know frequencies with gear alone.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Sure he can. Grab the receiver. Start tapping the mouthpiece whilst you use your Power Armour to scan. And that’s assuming it’s not written or otherwise displayed on the unit.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

It wouldn't be written or displayed, that's a huge breach of security. And he would have millions if not more frequencies to look through, and then he would have to find the right channel to listen in. That leaves him needing to constantly test things from the Vox, also requires the Vox not to run out of battery through the long and tedious process of the scan. The scan is not a magical be-all end-all button that will just reveal the information he needs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/03 20:15:12


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Imperial vox traffic can be encrypted - e.g. marines are forever switching onto private channels to chat to each other.

Encrypted radio traffic (and especially data links, which they also use) aren’t just single frequency transmissions, they’re spread over a whole section of the spectrum in a way that is essentially just noise unless both transmitter and receiver are using the same key.

Switching between pre-programmed channels is more about choosing which key to use then analogue frequency hopping.

That said, this potentially puts the marine at an advantage - if the guardsman has not zeroed the vox or comm bead before dying then the keys will be already coded in and selectable. And if there’s a pass code needed to ‘log in’ then the marine can potentially learn it by eating the operator’s brains.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

I love how ridiculously granular those threads can get. Now we're talking about vox frequencies???


My take is that any argument to the effect that a Space Marine can butcher endless waves of guardsmen is very much a "spherical cows in a vacuum" kind of deal which ignores a myriad factors such as supplies, environment, ingenuity, change in tactics, self-preservation, the inexorable march of time, the actual objective of the battle beyond killing the enemy, and so on. "Ah, but Marines can fight smarter/dirtier," you might say. Well, believe it or not, so can Guardsmen. The PC-vs.-NPCs video game mentality on display in this thread doesn't really translate into any realistic or semi-realistic war scenarios.

The fact of the matter is that if a Space Marine finds himself outnumbered 10,000 to one (or even 100 to one), he probably screwed up pretty badly somewhere along the way.

A Marine can conceivably be worth 10,000 men in the wider war effort, if his power is applied in a very surgical way (e.g. as part of a sabotage, assassination or rescue operation). That doesn't mean he could defeat 10,000 men in a fair or unfair fight.

Plus, a single anti-aircraft missile can blast a Thunderhawk out of the sky and send all the Marines inside crashing to their deaths. Lopsided situations, where one side inflicts disproportionate losses to the other, can go both ways. Marines' low numbers means they tend to put a lot of eggs in one basket.

.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/10/03 20:49:23


Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Argent Shroud), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Goes down in time? Whilst the Guardsmen are watching the Marine gut their fellow at staggering speed and with contemptuous ease?
Yah. They shoot him. They shoot him fast because it's readily apparent that they need to shoot him fast. They don't stand there gakking their pants because A: They're trained and B: despite this whole "transhuman dread" thing even the Space Marine centric novels show GEQ and rabble cultists happily firing away at Space Marines loyalist or traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Guardsman- wrote:

A Marine can conceivably be worth 10,000 men in the wider war effort, if his power is applied in a very surgical way (e.g. as part of a sabotage, assassination or rescue operation). That doesn't mean he could defeat 10,000 men in a fair or unfair fight.
.

^this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's how the Space Marine is defeated. The 10,000 Guardsmen split into 1,000 work crews of 10 and dig 1,000 trap-pits that immediately crumble under 600 pounds of Space Marine. Space Marine falls in pit, Guardsmen Frag marine to death.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/03 21:11:34


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ro
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I love how the goal posts have shifted to the Guardsman being a mix of Stephen Hawking and Jason Bourne, and the Space Marine is suddenly Gomer Pyle. He's dumb as gak but has a gun and is slightly dangerous.
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





From the Space Marine literally being so fast and strong that Guardsmen piss and gak themselves the moment they start fighting? I think hyperbole meets hyperbole.

Just as Transhuman Dread may be canon, so is a human killing a Chaos Marine with a Chain Sword by accident.

I think I'm starting to fall to the line of preferring Tabletop as a better representation of power than actual lore.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

TT is a good indicator, used to be better in previous edition because of initiative and AP and what not, but it was, imo, a good representation that Marines were faster/tougher/stronger than humans, with a large, but not unsurmountable advantage. Same with a lot of things.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 TheBestBucketHead wrote:

Just as Transhuman Dread may be canon, so is a human killing a Chaos Marine with a Chain Sword by accident.

Barely even qualifies as canon based on that one quotation people repeatedly post (and certainly doesn't belong in discussions relating to combat, where, y'know, human vs. human warfare already instills dread, but nevertheless occurs [while also leaving aside the fact that Carnifex Dread, Superheavy Skimmer Dread, Scarab Swarm Dread, Squig Dread, etc., are not concepts parroted by over-literal weirdos]). Unless there's a depiction of it occurring, during battle, written from an omniscient pov, it goes directly into the unreliable narrator bucket, and we're left to understand the concept as mostly applying to interpersonal interactions with astartes, where it is indeed observable in many sources.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I love how the goal posts have shifted to the Guardsman being a mix of Stephen Hawking and Jason Bourne, and the Space Marine is suddenly Gomer Pyle. He's dumb as gak but has a gun and is slightly dangerous.
Yes. . . the same techniques that primitive humans used to hunt Mammoths with, digging holes, totally the equivalent of Stephen Hawking . . .

Also Space Marines are extremely well trained, but they're not exactly all Archimedes intellects. There's a lot of variation by individual.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






I haven't read nearly everything in this topic, but one point that always pops up in my brain when these discussions come up:

What do Space Marines use to kill other (Chaos) Space Marines? (Heavy) bolters, meltas, plasma, missile launchers, krank grenades and power weapons.
What does Guard have plenty of? Exactly these weapons. I mean they have it on a squad level in a lot of regiments. Not all of course, but a lot. I assume that there are anti tank infantry regiments that run around with Krak Grenades on each individual and Rough Riders have at least one Explosive lance tip each.

So while I'm willing to believe that a Space Marines could kill 10.000 Guardsman in naked, unarmed combat and is in a lot of situations worth more tactically, the average Space marine in his average equipment (Power Armor, usual weapons loadout, usual vehicle) would have to be incredibly lucky to kill a 10.000 number of average guardsmen with their average equipment on a battlefield. While those Guardsmen only have to be lucky once.

Also as good as Power armor and Weapons are: I don't know how much punishment the lenses, sensors and rebreather can take. You can't do everything out of ceramite and even lasguns will likely blind a lense after a couple of thousands shots. So the Space Marine will get worse while he slaugthers away... until there comes that lucky plasma shot from the special gunner, the lucky cut from the sarges power sword or the Krak grenade getting slammed in his jet pack outlet...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 06:26:04


~7300 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think another thing to put into perspective is how the marines have vehicles that don’t benefit from the transhuman dread, impossible to perceive speed or just general invincibility that marine infantry allegedly has. If marines are so awesome at being armored ninjas, what does a Predator tank do? Who needs a Rhino? Just run there, it’ll be faster and safer. What do dreadnoughts actually bring to the table? Even the bolt gun is unnecessary, apparently.
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...

And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...

~7300 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




This is where hyperbole gets dangerous. If 1 Custodian is worth a 100 SM, and 1 SM is worth a 100 Guard soldiers, does that make the Dark Eldar guy that made a chair out of Custodian Corpses worth 1 million guard? No.

Just by sheer weight of numbers, the SM obviously loses. But just by the fact that we are even having this discussion alone, you are granting the fact that SM are THAT good. That is the level you have to put them on to even start the thread.

Can 1 Custodian take on 10000 Guard? Possibly. Because you have to grant the Custodian's lore.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Insectum7 wrote:
Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.


Jesus H Lucifer, are you just being a contrarian to every single point in the thread? What is the point of your posts? You don't seem to be taking a side, just calling everyone wrong for no reason.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






According to Imperial Law, every battle the Custodes participate in is listed as a victory regardless of outcome. Therefore Custodes win against everything otherwise its illegal.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

 Pyroalchi wrote:
What do Space Marines use to kill other (Chaos) Space Marines? (Heavy) bolters, meltas, plasma, missile launchers, krank grenades and power weapons.
What does Guard have plenty of? Exactly these weapons.

Very good point. The best Imperial Guard weapons are every bit as powerful as the basic Space Marine weapons, and the basic Space Marine weapons are good enough to kill most things, including Chaos Marines. In fact it should put an end to this stupid argument, unless someone tries to claim that Imperial Guard meltaguns can't melt steel beams power armor.

"Space Marines too scawy" is just plain BS. Yes, the sight of a Space Marine in combat may be unsettling, but so are slavering tyranid monsters, clanking ork walkers, and a million other things that Guardsmen frequently square off against. Guardsmen may be comparatively weak but they are no cowards. If you can hold the line against a Carnifex, you can hold the line against a Space Marine.

.

Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Argent Shroud), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.


Jesus H Lucifer, are you just being a contrarian to every single point in the thread? What is the point of your posts? You don't seem to be taking a side, just calling everyone wrong for no reason.
Well, why is a Custodes worth 100 Space Marines? You posted it, and I'm just curious as to why that would be the case. They seem marginally better for force concentration in CC and that's about it in terms of combat advantage. Otherwise they seem more like a figurehead organization.

As for "sides" I think I've explained my position pretty well so far. A Marine might be worth 10000 Guardsmen within the full context of their modus operandi and typical assets in theatre, but the fan-wankery of a Marine soloing 10000 Guardsmen is just crap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 17:20:58


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 Pyroalchi wrote:
I haven't read nearly everything in this topic, but one point that always pops up in my brain when these discussions come up:

What do Space Marines use to kill other (Chaos) Space Marines? (Heavy) bolters, meltas, plasma, missile launchers, krank grenades and power weapons.
What does Guard have plenty of? Exactly these weapons. I mean they have it on a squad level in a lot of regiments. Not all of course, but a lot. I assume that there are anti tank infantry regiments that run around with Krak Grenades on each individual and Rough Riders have at least one Explosive lance tip each.

So while I'm willing to believe that a Space Marines could kill 10.000 Guardsman in naked, unarmed combat and is in a lot of situations worth more tactically, the average Space marine in his average equipment (Power Armor, usual weapons loadout, usual vehicle) would have to be incredibly lucky to kill a 10.000 number of average guardsmen with their average equipment on a battlefield. While those Guardsmen only have to be lucky once.

Also as good as Power armor and Weapons are: I don't know how much punishment the lenses, sensors and rebreather can take. You can't do everything out of ceramite and even lasguns will likely blind a lense after a couple of thousands shots. So the Space Marine will get worse while he slaugthers away... until there comes that lucky plasma shot from the special gunner, the lucky cut from the sarges power sword or the Krak grenade getting slammed in his jet pack outlet...


You beat me to it, I was thinking "what about krak grenades" when the whole melee discussion was going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...

And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...


Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").

Not sure what SM might have as far as anti-hoard weaponry (if we are considering guardsmen having their specialized man-portable equipment, seems like it might also be interesting to see what might happen if the SM has specialized equipment). Flamer comes to mind, but that seems like it might be more of a danger than a help for the lone SM.

Personally, I'm on the side of thinking the 10k guard will win unless the circumstances heavily favor the SM.

To be fair (and as many have already said) picking the battle that heavily favors the SM is what the SM would do. That said, we could also consider whether the guard chain of command would be able to out maneuver the lone SM (in b4 the SM just kills the chain of command before they can choose...what...do you hate lore discussions or something?)

And finally (on a silly note), if one of those guardsmen happens to be Sly Marbo, we all know that the lone SM would sacrifice himself rather than commit patricide

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 17:49:29


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Asenion wrote:
There is a Japanese term for this " Duty has the weight of a mountain, while death is as light as a feather." The Emperor, above all, has earned a reprieve.


I can't imagine the Emperor's ego would let him actually give a gak about the psykers he noms. Dante, on the other hand, probably has more than a bit of a death wish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I know plenty, thank you.

Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech. And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.


Are they now? That doesn't match up with what we know of the setting. If that were true, I'm sure you'd have some evidence in the books you could cite in your favor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Simple matter of Authority.

The PDF and Imperial Guard simply cannot order the Ad Mech about. Even their commanders have to liaise with the Priesthood, who are by no means beholden to fulfil any request. The PDF and Guard will have no idea how to activate the weapons without the Ad Mech, because they’re not trained or educated in the Mysteries of the Omnissiah.

A Space Marine on an Astartes vessel, crewed by Chapter Serfs? Even if they’re simply a Battle Brother? Obeyed without question, barring a higher ranking Marine being in charge.


Enginseers are seconded to IG regiments and bound to follow their commander's orders. Imperial Guard regiments have AdMech personnel in them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A Chapter Master (the required One Space Marine) is begging no-one. He is ordering his fleet into action. Those aren’t allies. They are Chapter resources. His to direct as he sees fit. Ergo, a single Space Marine can wipe out entire planets, as they have the authority and resources to order Exterminatus if they so wish - and no other Space Marine, though they’d be present, would take an active part of that, as they don’t crew the fleet in that manner.


Considering that certain Imperial Guard commanders have been given command over fleet assets and forces strong enough to conquer entire sectors at various times (Macharius, Creed, Yarrick, etc) the same would apply in reverse. Sorry, not sorry, you're twisting the truth and nobody here's taking you seriously.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now, as for Vraks. Just been skim reading Vol 1, and whilst yes it has Defence Lasers, I’m yet to read where Guardsmen or PDF are operating them. If you could provide a volume and page ref, that’d be appreciated.


Where does it say they're operated by AdMech personnel?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It doesn't really matter though, because the Departament Munitorum would label them traitor guard for attacking a space marine, and then literally everyone would be executed, so in a way, the space marine wins?

You attack a space marine, they ALL die, no ifs ands, or butts. just straight to the Blams.


That's totally what happened during the Badab War, amirite?

Nah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Power setting? Before or after you’ve wet yourself due to the mind breaking sight of the Marine in action, closing the ground far faster than your brain will allow such a creature to move.


Yeah that isn't a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can a marine kill 10k guard troops by himself?

Yes.



Nope, still no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bobthehero wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
. There is a heavily damaged one they snipe or Bragg takes out with an AC, but other than that, a real standup fight, even with stealth experts like the Ghosts, would go VERY badly for anyone not wearing power armor.


Wrong, a team of 12 Ghosts ambush 5 CSMs in swamps with the help of locals. The Ghosts survive, the Marines do not (and neither do most other locals). Transhuman dread seems to be mostly in Marine books, as almost any books I've read from the IG point of view mentions nothing of the sort. There's deference and respect, but that's about it.


Yeah, the fear is more the fear of the Astartes as being terrifyingly efficient troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So now we are to believe that SM are the same speed as humans, are likely armored in tissue paper, and every single guard soldier is an experience vet of no less than 4 black crusades.


No, stop strawmanning people you ninny.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or we can believe the lore inherent in the setting. SM are mildly terrifying to general humans. They are strong enough to hold and fire tank mounted human weapons. They are faster than the human eye can perceive.


Humans are faster than the human eye can perceive, too, in the case of the fastest punchers in the world. Space Marines can't *run* faster than the human eye can perceive because the human eye can perceive things moving hundreds of miles an hour.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Without retreating to whataboutisms, I would simply ask, which is more likely true; The lore in a codex/BRB, or the lore presented by an author trying to make his personal protagonist/s look cool?


None of the codexes jerk Astartes off to the degree you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can 1 Custodian take on 10000 Guard? Possibly. Because you have to grant the Custodian's lore.


No. The Custodes are clearly high on their own farts. They've been defeated by clowns and the Sons of Horus (now Black Legion) before. But they don't write it down or talk about it.

The Guard are the best land-based fighting force the Imperium has. Not by headcount, of course, but by absolute power. If you need something or someone on a planet flattened and aren't willing to use voidships to do it? Use Guard artillery. Artillery wins wars.

1 Custodes can't defeat ten thousand guardsman in a battle. Pprobably not even 100, depending on what the guardsman are armed with and whether they have any armor. But that's fine, because they don't need to. That's not their job. Custodes are the fantasy/Sci Fi version of CIA wetworks teams who have goals that are both military and political.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.


They're not. Also they seem to lack that spark of humanity that Astartes have that pushes them to heroism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Guardsman- wrote:

Very good point. The best Imperial Guard weapons are every bit as powerful as the basic Space Marine weapons, and the basic Space Marine weapons are good enough to kill most things, including Chaos Marines. In fact it should put an end to this stupid argument, unless someone tries to claim that Imperial Guard meltaguns can't melt steel beams power armor.


Actually Astartes weapons are typically higher quality than what the Guard have access too, but it's a matter of degree and not kind. An old AK-47 is still an assault rifle and will still kill you just fine, even if it isn't as fancy as a modern M27.

-Guardsman- wrote:

"Space Marines too scawy" is just plain BS. Yes, the sight of a Space Marine in combat may be unsettling, but so are slavering tyranid monsters, clanking ork walkers, and a million other things that Guardsmen frequently square off against. Guardsmen may be comparatively weak but they are no cowards. If you can hold the line against a Carnifex, you can hold the line against a Space Marine.


Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").


Definitely depends on the regiment; plasma guns in particular are more common among Cadian (and presumably now Cadian diaspora) regiments. They require more specialized training to not cook yourself than the other fire support weapons.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2022/10/04 18:21:00


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...

And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...

Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").


Actually we can shed a little light on the commonality of Special weapons with the 3.5/4th ed IG codex, which lists a number of IG regiments and their proclivities, doctrines and uniforms. One of the categories is "Preferred Special Weapon". Two out of the twelve regiments listed have "Plasma Gun", (Tallarn and Harakoni Warhawks). No specific numbers are listed, but the fact that regiments can have Plasma (or Melta) as "preferred" would suggest that the frequency of Plasma Guns could be pretty dang high.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, why is a Custodes worth 100 Space Marines? You posted it, and I'm just curious as to why that would be the case. They seem marginally better for force concentration in CC and that's about it in terms of combat advantage. Otherwise they seem more like a figurehead organization.

As for "sides" I think I've explained my position pretty well so far. A Marine might be worth 10000 Guardsmen within the full context of their modus operandi and typical assets in theatre, but the fan-wankery of a Marine soloing 10000 Guardsmen is just crap.


Because they are strong and fast enough to tear through groups of average Marines as easily as Marines do guardsmen or even better, have the best equipment the Imperium can muster, and to boot also are much better shots and with much better guns than Marines.

1,000 Custodians killed over 100,000 Orks led by Gharkull Blackfang in moments. Valdor with a squad of Custodians cut through hundreds of Thousand Sons without suffering a single injury in the Battle of Prospero.

Your beef with Custodes is kind of amusing but sadly not especially backed up by the fluff. You can find a few counter examples sure, but Custodes are considerably superior to Astartes. As good as 100 of them? Idk where that claim comes from per say but there could be an argument for it.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

Hecaton wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Without retreating to whataboutisms, I would simply ask, which is more likely true; The lore in a codex/BRB, or the lore presented by an author trying to make his personal protagonist/s look cool?


None of the codexes jerk Astartes off to the degree you are.

lol

Also let's not pretend Codex writers are any more objective about their faction than Black Library authors are about their protags. A lot of 40k lore was written by geeks trying to one-up one another about "who would win in a fight". You can't expect any kind of consistency. That's why it's important to take it all with a grain of salt and apply some common sense.

Common sense says three things:
1. Guardsmen have access to guns that can penetrate power armor.
2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.
3. Ergo, a Guardsman with the right gun, at the right place, at the right time, could take down a Space Marine with relative ease.

Of course, in 40k lore, Space Marines are protected not only by power armor but also, frequently, by plot armor. And even a cyclonic torpedo can't punch a hole through plot armor.



Hecaton wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:

Very good point. The best Imperial Guard weapons are every bit as powerful as the basic Space Marine weapons, and the basic Space Marine weapons are good enough to kill most things, including Chaos Marines. In fact it should put an end to this stupid argument, unless someone tries to claim that Imperial Guard meltaguns can't melt steel beams power armor.


Actually Astartes weapons are typically higher quality than what the Guard have access too, but it's a matter of degree and not kind. An old AK-47 is still an assault rifle and will still kill you just fine, even if it isn't as fancy as a modern M27.

Sorry, I meant to say that IG special and heavy weapons (plasma, melta and so on) are at least as powerful as SM boltguns and bolt pistols. If a SM boltgun can kill a Chaos Marine, so can an IG meltagun.

Good point about the AK-47, though.

.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 20:29:55


Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Argent Shroud), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




-Guardsman- wrote:

Sorry, I meant to say that IG special and heavy weapons (plasma, melta and so on) are at least as powerful as SM boltguns and bolt pistols. If a SM boltgun can kill a Chaos Marine, so can an IG meltagun.

Good point about the AK-47, though.

.


Ah ok, sure. I was comparing, say, an IG heavy bolter vs. an Astartes heavy bolter. The Astartes version is likely to be a bit fancier and better maintained, but they still are high RoF rpg launchers.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 Insectum7 wrote:
DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...

And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...

Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").


Actually we can shed a little light on the commonality of Special weapons with the 3.5/4th ed IG codex, which lists a number of IG regiments and their proclivities, doctrines and uniforms. One of the categories is "Preferred Special Weapon". Two out of the twelve regiments listed have "Plasma Gun", (Tallarn and Harakoni Warhawks). No specific numbers are listed, but the fact that regiments can have Plasma (or Melta) as "preferred" would suggest that the frequency of Plasma Guns could be pretty dang high.

Thanks for point me to that...now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go lose myself in the old IG codices
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

-Guardsman- wrote:

2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.

.


I could probably find you several dozen examples of them doing just that. I can think of at least one example of a human doing it (Eisenhorn).

Hate it all you want but it isn't like claims like that came out of nowhere. Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Yeah, not gonna lie. There are countless examples of Space Marines being fast enough to dodge projectiles. The rational for most of the SM hyperbole stems from the fact that a small team of them can completely overwhelm and destroy much larger, harder targets, IE Traitor Guard HQs (Reagents Shadow), boarding actions on space hulks(Cain Books), or holding off an entire Ork WAAAHHH (Grimaldus) or storm the HQ and kill a small band of Heretic Marines (Brothers of the Snake)

If only 5-7 can do these, then what can a single one do? Well, he can take out the entire raiding party of Dark Eldar by himself with just a combat knife and a bolter (Brothers of the Snake) or get stepped on by a literal titan, and shrug it off. (https://pastebin.com/cUPVJrju (Not sure the book))


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cato Sicarius won a starring contest with a helmet in the armory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 23:06:35


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, not gonna lie. There are countless examples of Space Marines being fast enough to dodge projectiles. The rational for most of the SM hyperbole stems from the fact that a small team of them can completely overwhelm and destroy much larger, harder targets, IE Traitor Guard HQs (Reagents Shadow), boarding actions on space hulks(Cain Books), or holding off an entire Ork WAAAHHH (Grimaldus) or storm the HQ and kill a small band of Heretic Marines (Brothers of the Snake)

If only 5-7 can do these, then what can a single one do? Well, he can take out the entire raiding party of Dark Eldar by himself with just a combat knife and a bolter (Brothers of the Snake) or get stepped on by a literal titan, and shrug it off. (https://pastebin.com/cUPVJrju (Not sure the book))


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cato Sicarius won a starring contest with a helmet in the armory.


Except there's much more material that contradicts this and is more restrained. So we go with the more sensible examples. You also haven't addressed all the outright lying you were doing about IG command structure, anti-orbital emplacements, and so on earlier in the thread.

Dodging bullets, nah. Successfully evading the firer's field of fire? Sure.

Keep in mind that this is also heroic fantasy, so Imperial Guard Hero > Space Marine or even Custodes, even if regular Space Marine > regular Guardsman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 23:13:14


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: