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I said the lychguard strike first, its just that after he takes a wound from the TH he is reduced to I1 for the next combat

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:assuming WS4 for the Lychguard they are extremely even, the Lychguard strikes first but the Terminator wounds him easier, both have almost the exact same save with a 3++ vs 4++ and 5++. Prolonged combat sees favors the terminator as the Lychguard would be swinging at the same time because of the thunderhammer.

Actually he would be striking first. Lychguard are I2, not I1

But if he hits with the thunderhammer it makes them I1 for the next combat round.

I'm wanting to play a large chunk of shield+warsythe Lychguard, so I'm very interested in the Termi vs. Lych.

Zachilles wrote:I said the lychguard strike first, its just that after he takes a wound from the TH he is reduced to I1 for the next combat

Isn't that unsaved wounds though?

Anyway, I just ran a vassal test. They do seem to be pretty evenly matched.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:I said the lychguard strike first, its just that after he takes a wound from the TH he is reduced to I1 for the next combat

Isn't that unsaved wounds though?

Anyway, I just ran a vassal test. They do seem to be pretty evenly matched.

And the rumored cost of a Lychguard is ~40 points? I may be looking at a monolith Lychguard army.

Yeah it is unsaved wounds, I was assuming that failing his invuln but passing his WBB would count as suffering an unsaved wound

Zachilles wrote:Yeah it is unsaved wounds, I was assuming that failing his invuln but passing his WBB would count as suffering an unsaved wound

We'll have to see how it's worded, but I'm assuming it would still be unsaved? Man I wish they would release that codex already!

Swara wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:assuming WS4 for the Lychguard they are extremely even, the Lychguard strikes first but the Terminator wounds him easier, both have almost the exact same save with a 3++ vs 4++ and 5++. Prolonged combat sees favors the terminator as the Lychguard would be swinging at the same time because of the thunderhammer.

Actually he would be striking first. Lychguard are I2, not I1

But if he hits with the thunderhammer it makes them I1 for the next combat round.

I'm wanting to play a large chunk of shield+warsythe Lychguard, so I'm very interested in the Termi vs. Lych.

Not sure you could take the Shield and a Warscythe. isn't the Warscythe a 2 handed weapon? You'd have to take the VoidBlades (i think).........Aren't they Entropic as well? So any wounds that didn't kill would also negate the terminators armour?

Praxiss wrote:

Swara wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:assuming WS4 for the Lychguard they are extremely even, the Lychguard strikes first but the Terminator wounds him easier, both have almost the exact same save with a 3++ vs 4++ and 5++. Prolonged combat sees favors the terminator as the Lychguard would be swinging at the same time because of the thunderhammer.

Actually he would be striking first. Lychguard are I2, not I1

But if he hits with the thunderhammer it makes them I1 for the next combat round.

I'm wanting to play a large chunk of shield+warsythe Lychguard, so I'm very interested in the Termi vs. Lych.

Not sure you could take the Shield and a Warscythe. isn't the Warscythe a 2 handed weapon? You'd have to take the VoidBlades (i think).........Aren't they Entropic as well? So any wounds that didn't kill would also negate the terminators armour?

I am assuming he meant a Squad of Shields and a squad of scythes. Also, Lyches take Hyperphase swords, not voidblades.

Math Hammer wise, even without the res orb, 3++ is exactly equivalent to 4++ and an aditional 5+: 66%.

So, assume 5 TH/SS termies vs. 5 Hyperphase/Shield Lychgard,

First, Start with Worst Case Scenario: Termies get the charge.

Lyches hit first, at I2. Unsure of attack stat, but, assuming since their elite, 2 attacks each base.

10 attacks at a likely WS4, so, 5 hits.
5 hits at STR 5 vs T4, so, 3.33 power weapon wounds
3.33 Wounds makes 1.11 unsaved wounds
1 dead Termie average.

So, 4 termies left at I1, 2 attacks each with 1 more for the charge, 12 attacks

12 attacks at WS 4, makes 6 hits
6 hits at str 8 vs. T5 makes 5 wounds.
5 wounds with 4++ makes 2.5 unsaved wounds
Also, given the toughness of the models otherwise, assuming 1W each
2.5 models die, and termies win the combat by 1.38 wounds,

Necrons must make a leadership test VS 8 or 9, which they will on average win
2.5 x 1/3 is .8333 models stand back up (without res orb, as I haven't factored a Lord into the combat)

So, combat results:

3.88 Termies remain
3.33 Lychgard remain

Be back in a min with if Lyches get the charge

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

Swara wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:assuming WS4 for the Lychguard they are extremely even, the Lychguard strikes first but the Terminator wounds him easier, both have almost the exact same save with a 3++ vs 4++ and 5++. Prolonged combat sees favors the terminator as the Lychguard would be swinging at the same time because of the thunderhammer.

Actually he would be striking first. Lychguard are I2, not I1

But if he hits with the thunderhammer it makes them I1 for the next combat round.

I'm wanting to play a large chunk of shield+warsythe Lychguard, so I'm very interested in the Termi vs. Lych.

Not sure you could take the Shield and a Warscythe. isn't the Warscythe a 2 handed weapon? You'd have to take the VoidBlades (i think).........Aren't they Entropic as well? So any wounds that didn't kill would also negate the terminators armour?

I am assuming he meant a Squad of Shields and a squad of scythes. Also, Lyches take Hyperphase swords, not voidblades.

Yeah a group of shield men in the front with scythes in the back. Would look awesome. That and with the special character (the honor one), give them furious charge.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

Swara wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:assuming WS4 for the Lychguard they are extremely even, the Lychguard strikes first but the Terminator wounds him easier, both have almost the exact same save with a 3++ vs 4++ and 5++. Prolonged combat sees favors the terminator as the Lychguard would be swinging at the same time because of the thunderhammer.

Actually he would be striking first. Lychguard are I2, not I1

But if he hits with the thunderhammer it makes them I1 for the next combat round.

I'm wanting to play a large chunk of shield+warsythe Lychguard, so I'm very interested in the Termi vs. Lych.

Not sure you could take the Shield and a Warscythe. isn't the Warscythe a 2 handed weapon? You'd have to take the VoidBlades (i think).........Aren't they Entropic as well? So any wounds that didn't kill would also negate the terminators armour?

I am assuming he meant a Squad of Shields and a squad of scythes. Also, Lyches take Hyperphase swords, not voidblades.

My bad, i was getting confused between them and the Praetorians.

Now, if the Lyches get the assault,

15 attacks at I2
7.5 hits
5 wounds
1.66 unsaved
1-2 dead termies

3.5 Termies swing, 7 attacks
3.5 hits
2.91 Wounds
1.45 Dead Lyches

Combat likely a tie, no leadership

1.45 x 1/3 = .48 stand back up

1.66 dead termies
~1 dead lych

So, without a lord /w res orb, could be a pretty ugly fight either way

I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

chaos0xomega wrote:I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

Aww c'mon, let them have their fun. I'm enjoying it personally.
If it bothers you that much, there are a few other threads around Dakka. You may be interested in: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403555.page. I am.

chaos0xomega wrote:I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

Well, seeing that these guys are pretty close to TH/SS termies for the same points actually helps me enjoy the codex a bit more. I had actually kinda discounted this unit for some time, now I'm actually pretty psyched that the baddass models actually have some potency to them.

Then again, The Termies are pretty good AT, whereas the Lyches can only pen transports on 6's. Welp, can't have everything.

KarlPedder wrote:Our transports are flimsy and we can't assault out of them and we can't assault out the Monolith and the only unit that can use the Ghost Ark that would be worth assaulting with will likely get FAQed into not being able to use it.

I'm still new to Warhammer 40k, but are these new transports really that flimsy? I play Orks right now, and our Trukks aren't exactly overpowered bastions of safety. I think the word ramshackle is even written in there somewhere. Rhinos and Chimeras don't strike me as mobile Storm Shields either. I admit I know little about Tau or Eldar armies, but it seems that a transport starting out with AV 13 plus the fact that it's a skimmer (which means it can basically hop over some terrain featuers insteady of having to go around, right?) puts Necrons ahead of many other transports. Well... other than things like Landraiders. That's not really a transport though as much as it is a tank with a chauffeur's license.

I dunno. Seems like a silly thing to say to me, but like I said, I'm new to this game still.

BTW, thanks to Kroot and Yak for giving us stuff to talk about instead of doing work!

chaos0xomega wrote:
I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

Different people enjoy the game different ways, crazy how that works

So it is known that a Lynch guard shield only gives a 4++ nor a 3++? You would think necron tech would at least be as good as a strom shield.

Well, they get the resurrection roll as well, so it's a 4++ then a 5++, so same thing as a 3++. 3++ and 5++ would be a little much.

and they can bounce shots back at people, so overall I say their tech is well above storm shields

haroon wrote:So it is known that a Lynch guard shield only gives a 4++ nor a 3++? You would think necron tech would at least be as good as a strom shield.

I think it bounces enemy shooting back at other enemy units within 6" though. Very nasty if someone volleys you with lascannons/plasma to soften you up for a termi assualt and you bounce all that ap2 back at them!

haroon wrote:So it is known that a Lynch guard shield only gives a 4++ nor a 3++? You would think necron tech would at least be as good as a strom shield.

Well, it seems that Necrons are more vindictive in this case (not unsurprisingly). They seem to have sacrificed the possible 3++ save such a bit of tech could have for a 4++, in exchange for reflecting shots back onto their enemies. Not to mention that the 'crons can stand back up, and the head actuaries deemed 33% to be acceptable losses.

Zachilles wrote:and they can bounce shots back at people, so overall I say their tech is well above storm shields

I Guess but how often are you 6in away and not in combat? I guess it keeps your oppenet from shooting before he charges you.

haroon wrote:

Zachilles wrote:and they can bounce shots back at people, so overall I say their tech is well above storm shields

I Guess but how often are you 6in away and not in combat? I guess it keeps your oppenet from shooting before he charges you.

If I was looking to charge a bunch of terminators, I'd want to lascannon/darklance/Rokkit/Dakkagun them first, to soften them up. The reflection effectively negates this shooting, or, turns the whole business into a multiturn maneuver, and tips the opponent's hand enough to be able to counter in the intervening turn, as troops that aren't beast/cav or fleet would need to be within 6, and would be easy targets for the kind of fire that'd be reflected.

chaos0xomega wrote:I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

It's amazing how many different ways there are to enjoy this hobby, and all of its facets. Would you quit condescending to people who don't think and enjoy things just like you?

First post says Flayed Ones cost 36,- euros. That should probably be 26,- right?

Otherwise that is one expensive box of buttfugly stuff

TBD wrote:First post says Flayed Ones cost 36,- euros. That should probably be 26,- right?

Otherwise that is one expensive box of buttfugly stuff

Glad I already own 20 (metal) non-buttfugly Flayed Ones.

MVBrandt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

It's amazing how many different ways there are to enjoy this hobby, and all of its facets. Would you quit condescending to people who don't think and enjoy things just like you?

True, but you don't agree that trying to mathhammer things that haven't even been released (and may not be accurate) is a bit. . .futile?

puma713 wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:I disappear for a day and I come back to see mathhammering... would you people quit trying to optimize things that haven't even been released and just enjoy the game already?

It's amazing how many different ways there are to enjoy this hobby, and all of its facets. Would you quit condescending to people who don't think and enjoy things just like you?

True, but you don't agree that trying to mathhammer things that haven't even been released (and may not be accurate) is a bit. . .futile?

It's all in good fun. Hold us over a little bit longer.

puma713 wrote:
True, but you don't agree that trying to mathhammer things that haven't even been released (and may not be accurate) is a bit. . .futile?

Not really - Yakface has given the essential stats, so running scenarios how that unit would fare against certain staple assault units that appear all the time is something that's no more futile than this entire thread.