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DC are bad because they usually die after one usage. It doesnt matter how hard they hit grots or guardsmen.

To be fair it sounds like a piloting issue if you can only tag grots and guardsman. They have so much mobility

Do they though? I think you are selling my opponents short. 9+4 spacing defeats descent easily. If you start them on the board, they die instantly.

BA can largely be shut down by clever setup and movement, and it doesnt matter how good the ba player is. Because 8th hates melee.

They do. They can deep strike 9in away with a 3d6 on any turn of the game.

You also have the option of a free move and advance at the start of the game.

By no means are they an auto-win which I may be coming across as making them out to be but they are certainly a terror in the night.

NexAddo wrote:

DC is a waste of points.

Yes a squad that can potential throw out 200 quality attacks in a turn, Mathhammer overkills two knights. Downs Eldar flyers, deals with plague bearers and on top of all that has 3 excellent ways the unit can be delivered. A waste of points sure.....

Blood Angels don't have much going for us but Death Company will kill anything they touch.

In reality your DC will only kill chaff units, or bounce off -2 to hit plague bearers. And then die, the rest will run away, unless you spend 2CP for a handful of remaining models.

NexAddo wrote:
They do. They can deep strike 9in away with a 3d6 on any turn of the game.

You also have the option of a free move and advance at the start of the game.

By no means are they an auto-win which I may be coming across as making them out to be but they are certainly a terror in the night.

You cant declare charges on units more than 12" away. It does not matter how far you roll. The devil is in the details.

At 20 ppm unequipped, they are a joke in the current meta.

9+4 spacing shuts down every ba assault scheme for the most part.

In reality your DC will only kill chaff units, or bounce off -2 to hit plague bearers. And then die, the rest will run away, unless you spend 2CP for a handful of remaining models.

Even at -2 150-200 attacks hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and 2s. Wounding on 2s is still going to do the emperors work. And we are now talking about probably the most durable unit in the entire game.

You cant declare charges on units more than 12" away. It does not matter how far you roll. The devil is in the details.

At 20 ppm unequipped, they are a joke in the current meta.

Wouldn't you just hold back and clear the chaff with the rest of your force first?
Surely you can hide a unit for a few terms out of LOS?

While you are chaff clearing, your list is getting blasted apart. DC in deepstrike waiting are idle points. What if your foe goes first and creates multiple layers?

You cant count on los blockers. Maybe you can hide, but never build around it.

DC regularly fail to shift pb, even buffed. There is no emperors work happening there.

The most attacks im aware of 15 dc having is 105.

NexAddo wrote:

DC is a waste of points.

Yes a squad that can potential throw out 200 quality attacks in a turn, Mathhammer overkills two knights. Downs Eldar flyers, deals with plague bearers and on top of all that has 3 excellent ways the unit can be delivered. A waste of points sure.....

Blood Angels don't have much going for us but Death Company will kill anything they touch.

Well, its a decent unit in cc.
But the problem is to reach cc.
The enemy will target it asap.

The most attacks im aware of 15 dc having is 105.

And you can fight twice.

You can even now through out an average of 5 mortal wounds without attacking. Probably not needed but if someone heroically intervenes..

The survivors fight twice. You cant just double the number. Go look at that guys 5-0 run with ba. DC were not impressive.

The 105 number includes the libby buff and sanguinor, which are far from automatic in every list.

 p5freak wrote:

NexAddo wrote:

A priest ?? Are you serious ? Swords are already 3 pts. more expensive than a fist. A priest with JP is 86 pts. That's 116 pts. in addition for S5 AP-3 D3. With all fists on SG I have S8 AP-3 D3 wounding T7 on 2s without a priest, that's 116 less points. Its -1 to hit, rerolling everything. Your priest is useless when he fails the charge. Or you have to daisy chain back to him, reducing the number of models who can fight.

Also means you are wounding Knights on 2s with powerfists. Swords wound of 4s. He buffs your big Death Company squad as well if you take one (And you should).

So yes... I am serious.

DC is a waste of points.

Care to explain why? I'm genuinely interested to have some feedback why they are bad.

They are too fragile and easily screened out. Their base cost is insane.

NexAddo wrote:
They do. They can deep strike 9in away with a 3d6 on any turn of the game.

You also have the option of a free move and advance at the start of the game.

By no means are they an auto-win which I may be coming across as making them out to be but they are certainly a terror in the night.

Yes. They can deep strike 9.01" from enemy and charge 3d6". They can't charge targets beyond 12" though. So enemy puts important squad behind chaff so that you can't get within 12" of the important target. Ergo even if you roll 18" for your charge you won't kill one model out of the important target.

Then the weak 1 wound T4 3+ models die.

Martel732 wrote:
They are too fragile and easily screened out. Their base cost is insane.

Agreed.

Well, this edition is a shooty one while cc units such as the DC have a hard time to make serious impact.
A DC unit has essentially one turn of cc when it charges. Of course, they can fight twice and inflict even more damage.
But then the enemy might withdraw leaving the DC in the open left and dry. It will hardly survive the enemy return fire.

Well fragility is the main problem with all SM. For 4 extra points you get 6FNP and 1A. Can't tell if it is worth, but it's still something.

About them be easily screened, that is wholly another problem. I never played BA competitively, but I played some tournaments with Orks and I yet to find someone that screen effectively all board. Might not be the best vs psychers heavy lists, but sometimes is enough to tripoint another unit after consolidation in order to survive long enough to get where you wanna get.
Or maybe now is gonna be easier dropping some screen cleaners and than charge with DC? I dunno.

It's not worth it DC are a fluff unit for us now. If you play against a decent opponent it's 300+pts wasted. If they got the same breaks as the vets got then we could talk.

kryczek wrote:
It's not worth it DC are a fluff unit for us now. If you play against a decent opponent it's 300+pts wasted. If they got the same breaks as the vets got then we could talk.

As in? Didn't play them in 8ed so I dunno

 p5freak wrote:

Krull wrote:Hi,

I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.

Tiberius501 wrote:Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?

You should wait until the new free PDF BA rules come out, hopefully in the near future, around the time when the new codex SM is released next saturday.

Well... what should i add to the list?
What dreadnought is the best? so many different ones... (this is the only army that has access to dreadnoughts)
Aggressors are auto include now i guess?
The primaris snipers seem good to.

I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?

Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?

This...

Things like whats going on in the Local Meta may make DC better or worse.

Its still all Knights Romping and Stomping at the tournaments I've been apart of. Orks and CWE have been doing okay.

But against Knights I'm sure I can deal with the Loyal 32. Hide the DC in a Magic box and then make the magic happen.

Krull wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Krull wrote:Hi,

I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.

Tiberius501 wrote:Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?

You should wait until the new free PDF BA rules come out, hopefully in the near future, around the time when the new codex SM is released next saturday.

Well... what should i add to the list?
What dreadnought is the best? so many different ones... (this is the only army that has access to dreadnoughts)
Aggressors are auto include now i guess?
The primaris snipers seem good to.

Well, inceptors got a third wound, which makes them pretty durable. I just dont understand why codex SM inceptors are 41 pts., but BA, SW, DA and SW are still 45. Codex SM tac squads are 60, non codex SM squads are still 65. Contemptor dreads are still the best. BA aggressors arent as good as codex SM aggressors because we dont have special rules like doctrines which allow them to move, but count as stationary. I have no clue about the new primaris units, i refuse to buy any of them, because of their idiotic transport rules.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?

´

Thing about that +1 attack though is that it helps DC where DC don't really need help. Or have you seen DC ever throw too few dice? Me not. Issue is it's hell of an expensive unit that dies to stiff breeze.

It's much like goff clan trait. Gives help where orks don't need help making it rather lackluster clan trait.

did anyone tried to play with 3 eversors to kilI screening units? I was planning on buying at least 1...

tneva82 wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?

´

Thing about that +1 attack though is that it helps DC where DC don't really need help. Or have you seen DC ever throw too few dice? Me not. Issue is it's hell of an expensive unit that dies to stiff breeze.

It's much like goff clan trait. Gives help where orks don't need help making it rather lackluster clan trait.

Agreed. The problem of DC isnt offensive power, its defensive.

Spado wrote:did anyone tried to play with 3 eversors to kilI screening units? I was planning on buying at least 1...

I had good success killing orks with 3 eversors. Screens shouldnt be a problem.

 p5freak wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?

´

Thing about that +1 attack though is that it helps DC where DC don't really need help. Or have you seen DC ever throw too few dice? Me not. Issue is it's hell of an expensive unit that dies to stiff breeze.

It's much like goff clan trait. Gives help where orks don't need help making it rather lackluster clan trait.

Agreed. The problem of DC isnt offensive power, its defensive.

I have to disagree with that. In my experience you can't have enough attacks. Especially not with a chainsword marine. DC has failed me many times even trying to kill some basic goons reliably when you have a bad attack or wound roll. If you feel your DC has to much overkill, just take fewer now, or drop a support character and invest in something else. For me the shock attack rule is a welcomed boost for those men in black and makes them a bit more viable. I take 5 man squads with a single t hammer here and there.

rhavien wrote:

I have to disagree with that. In my experience you can't have enough attacks. Especially not with a chainsword marine. DC has failed me many times even trying to kill some basic goons reliably when you have a bad attack or wound roll. If you feel your DC has to much overkill, just take fewer now, or drop a support character and invest in something else. For me the shock attack rule is a welcomed boost for those men in black and makes them a bit more viable. I take 5 man squads with a single t hammer here and there.

If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.

 p5freak wrote:
If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.

Of course I didn't mean such an scenario. I said I'm using small squads. This is just the ridiculous overkill you should avoid. I'm totally agreeing with you, that your setup isn't much benefitting from the shock attack rule at all, but maybe you should just use less guys? They won't suffer from moral losses in small squads and the enemie maybe wastes wounds while shooting at 3 5-man squads instead of a big one. Also the extra attack is a huge thing for some quality weapons hidden in you squads. A fourth attack for the thunderhammer or power weapon is a welcome improvement.

rhavien wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.

Of course I didn't mean such an scenario. I said I'm using small squads. This is just the ridiculous overkill you should avoid. I'm totally agreeing with you, that your setup isn't much benefitting from the shock attack rule at all, but maybe you should just use less guys? They won't suffer from moral losses in small squads and the enemie maybe wastes wounds while shooting at 3 5-man squads instead of a big one. Also the extra attack is a huge thing for some quality weapons hidden in you squads. A fourth attack for the thunderhammer or power weapon is a welcome improvement.

I am not using DC at all.