Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ryan Lawson

Jan 12-09





Man can never be free of control, for to be free of control is to be controlled by one self. I am a high school student with parents and grand parents who own their own guns and I believe that if a person wants to have a gun then let him have one, after a thorough background check. If the government stops guns from being sold to the average citizen, the only thing that would do is create more crime, and it would take the guns out of the hands of the people who are willing to go through the process of the background check and getting a gun license. What you aren’t doing is taking the guns out of the hands of the people who buy them illegally. Therefore, taking the guns off the market will cause more deaths because people won’t be able to defend themselves against the criminals that buy the guns illegally.

Larry Pratt, the executive director of Gun Owners of America, a no-compromise pro-gun lobbying organization that supports the rights of gun owners guaranteed by the Second Amendment, hosts GAO's weekly radio program Live Fire he said, “…in what was otherwise not a particularly good decision that came down in the 19th century, the court ruled in Cruikshank that rights do not originate from the government having established them, but that rights--such as the right to be armed as stated in the Second Amendment--predated the existence of the American Republic and its Constitution. All the Constitution is doing is observing their reality and endeavoring to protect rights, because that's the way God made us.” I whole heartedly agree with Mr. Pratt, the government does not give us our rights it just protects them, and if the government takes them away from us then the government should be abolished for taking our God given rights.

The funny thing is, every time that a concealed carry law is introduced in a state or is being considered for loosening up the laws, an anti-gunner always says that guns are too dangerous and that they are going to lead to road rage and the deaths of innocents, it never has happened. In fact, people who have concealed carry permits are the ones who commit the fewest crimes of any in the population this includes police and ministers. They should be allowed to carry concealed weapons in their churches so they can respond the way the volunteer security guard did at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs who was able to respond and stop Matthew Murray, before he was able to kill hundreds of people.

Many people have analyzed who gets shot to death, and it turns out that most of the time criminals kill other criminals, and large numbers of criminals are killed each year by gun wielding crime victims. It’s fairly rare for a responsible gun wielding citizen to be killed by an attacker or to shoot a bystander. In almost 97 percent of the defensive gun uses in America , which probably happen roughly two million times a year, nobody's killed, and nobody's wounded.

Some people claim that AK-47-type rifles are being used more and more in American street fights. I have to admit that this is becoming more of a problem, but I have to remind everybody that those guns were obtained illegally. It would be impossible to stop all illegal gun sales in the United States but if congress passes more gun control laws they will be causing the death of more innocents than there are now with the current laws. Let the citizens have some free will, let the individual decide if he or she has a gun, but don’t take the guns from the people.


this is my opinion just wanting to see if any one feels the same as me.

Gun controls laws dramatically lesson the number of home accidents and fatal crimes of passion (involving guns). They don't lesson the number of gang related gun crimes as dramatically as they could, but as most of those guns are obtained in methods that circumvent control in any case it's a non issue.

the only thing that would do is create more crime

I've never seen a statistic that supports this in any but the most vaguely circumstantial way, and I've done a lot of looking. I've also been in a ton of these debates and they devolve into ad hominem and bunk statistical analysis almost immediately. They also tend to be based upon poorly thought out and overly involved logical arguments (such as the argument that fewer guns causes more gun crime).

I'll be in some other thread while that all goes down.

Well we dont have guns and get along just fine- we did have the legal right to have guns till 2 massacres in 80s and 90s made us go WTF and guns were for the most part banned.

Maybe its cos we dont have a codified constitution giving us the right to have them, maybe we are just sheep that do whatever our political overlords tell us...who knows

i also think its that the poloticians think the citizens arent smart enough to do the responsible thing and they think they have to be our nanny and watch every thing we do because they are paranoid that their citizens will overthow them.

I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc. I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

whatwhat wrote:I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc.

Because they are fun, and it is hard to hunt deer (to eat, not for sport) with a fork. They shouldn't be fun, but they are. I watched the Matrix and I know this.

whatwhat wrote:I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

sps? Society of Physics Students?

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc.

Because they are fun, and it is hard to hunt deer (to eat, not for sport) with a fork. They shouldn't be fun, but they are. I watched the Matrix and I know this.

whatwhat wrote:I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

sps? Society of Physics Students?

Considering you find the use of guns "fun" I'd prefer not to reveal the def. of SPS for lack of interest in the ensuing argument.

I'm a gun owner, and an NRA member. In fact, it is probably the only area of politics that I get involved in whatsoever, and certainly the only area where I have any common cause with the American right anymore.

The thing is for all the talk about it, as far as I can tell, it doesn't weigh on the collective consciousness of this nation as much as the activists on either side would have you believe. Even the NRA admits this. For all the 20 or so telephone calls I got prior to the presidential election, the endless mailings requesting just a little more money, and the general fear mongering, the latest issue of American Rifleman has a column talking about "major victories" in elections. This is one issue, mind you, after trying to proclaim Obama the antithesis of all things 2nd amendment. What it gets down to is exactly what they're saying....there are a lot of Republican seats that went to Democrats who are either pro-2nd or just dont have those issues as a priority. Incidentally, somewhat beside the point, but the NRA, like most lobbying organizations, publishes a list of their preferred candidates in elections. Fully a third of the Tennessee politicians running for state legislative office they mentioned were Democrats. In other words, life goes on, and in all probability nothing is going to change concerning this issue.

If you want to know why I feel the way I do, it probably has to do with the fact that I enjoy shooting as a hobby. Firearms are one of the few things in our disposable society that are still designed to last indefinitely when properly cared for. There are plenty of firearms made in the 19th century that are perfectly safe to fire with modern ammunition, and others that can be safely fired using black powder cartridges ( there is a niche market for this by the way). I find autoloading firearms to be fascinating machines. Unlike many shooters, I truly enjoy breaking down my guns and cleaning them. I have an interest in mechanical devices like this in general. I like perfection, and striving to get ever more precise with my shooting.

I'm also an ardent individualist. I've always resented anyone telling me what I can do, with whom, and when.

Hey Ryan, just out of curiosity, was that a high school essay of yours that you’ve copied here. It was very good structurally, although with a slight tendency to rant rather than argue.

Anyhow, just as heads up as to how this thread can be expected to go, some people will make reasoned, moderate arguments that disagree with yours. You and other pro-gun people will make reasoned, moderate arguments in reply. Then someone, whether pro-gun or not, will come in and make a far more extreme statement (saying that people only want to ban guns because they’re afraid, or they only need guns because they’re penis substitutes or something else that’s similarly ridiculous). Then there’ll be a long argument, and at the end of it everyone will have the exact same opinion they had at the beginning.

And for the record, I think guns are great fun. I’ve been shooting on a few occasions and would like to go again. Given the number of studies performed by both sides on gun control, it’s interesting to note how little evidence there is either way that guns increase or decrease the crime rate. Rather, there seems to be little effect. I find it frustrating that so much political capital is spent by both sides on the gun debate, when it could be spent on building systems and methods of lowering violent crime.

whatwhat wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc.

Because they are fun, and it is hard to hunt deer (to eat, not for sport) with a fork. They shouldn't be fun, but they are. I watched the Matrix and I know this.

whatwhat wrote:I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

sps? Society of Physics Students?

Considering you find the use of guns "fun" I'd prefer not to reveal the def. of SPS for lack of interest in the ensuing argument.

Well, why don't you enlighten the rest of us.

I've told you why.

whatwhat wrote:OK!

Yah, that is the only reason that people of many different backgrounds, from all walks of life, would choose to participate in the shooting or gun collecting hobby. I had no idea life could be this simple and straightforward. Thanks.

Did I say it was "the only reason"?

gamefreak wrote:i also think its that the poloticians think the citizens arent smart enough to do the responsible thing and they think they have to be our nanny and watch every thing we do because they are paranoid that their citizens will overthow them.

OK, uh, that is pretty crazy, and kind of diminishes everything you’ve said previously.

Are you suggesting there is a real chance of gun owners in the US overthrowing their government. Are you then saying that this chance is perceived by politicians as being high enough that it affects policy?

And are you or your family purchasing guns with the intent of one day overthrowing government?

whatwhat wrote:I've told you why.

Alright, moving on to someone who has something serious to contribute.

sebster wrote:

gamefreak wrote:i also think its that the poloticians think the citizens arent smart enough to do the responsible thing and they think they have to be our nanny and watch every thing we do because they are paranoid that their citizens will overthow them.

OK, uh, that is pretty crazy, and kind of diminishes everything you’ve said previously.

Are you suggesting there is a real chance of gun owners in the US overthrowing their government. Are you then saying that this chance is perceived by politicians as being high enough that it affects policy?

And are you or your family purchasing guns with the intent of one day overthrowing government?

I think that is symbolic Sebster, it is a matter of trust, not paranoia.

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I've told you why.

Alright, moving on to someone who has something serious to contribute.

It is serious. Why else would someone feel 'empowered' or have fun by using, what is, an instrument of death?

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I've told you why.

Alright, moving on to someone who has something serious to contribute.

It is serious. Why else would someone feel 'empowered' or have fun by using, what is, an instrument of death?

I think I tried to explain that in my post. I never mentioned empowerment, that is your wording.

Grignard wrote:I think I tried to explain that in my post. I never mentioned empowerment, that is your wording.

If you mean the bellow, I can't see how you did really. And I know you didin't use that word, hence the ' instead of ". But it is a word used in this argument a lot.

Grignard wrote:If you want to know why I feel the way I do, it probably has to do with the fact that I enjoy shooting as a hobby. Firearms are one of the few things in our disposable society that are still designed to last indefinitely when properly cared for. There are plenty of firearms made in the 19th century that are perfectly safe to fire with modern ammunition, and others that can be safely fired using black powder cartridges ( there is a niche market for this by the way). I find autoloading firearms to be fascinating machines. Unlike many shooters, I truly enjoy breaking down my guns and cleaning them. I have an interest in mechanical devices like this in general. I like perfection, and striving to get ever more precise with my shooting.

Grignard wrote:Yah, that is the only reason that people of many different backgrounds, from all walks of life, would choose to participate in the shooting or gun collecting hobby. I had no idea life could be this simple and straightforward. Thanks.

Well, I hate to say I said this exact thing would happen. In fact, that’s not true, I quite like saying it.

“Then someone, whether pro-gun or not, will come in and make a far more extreme statement (saying that people only want to ban guns because they’re afraid, or they only need guns because they’re penis substitutes or something else that’s similarly ridiculous)”

So everyone who drives a car has a small penis. Or uses forks.

A car is for transport, a fork is for eating. A gun is for?

sebster wrote:Well, I hate to say I said this exact thing would happen. In fact, that’s not true, I quite like saying it.

“Then someone, whether pro-gun or not, will come in and make a far more extreme statement (saying that people only want to ban guns because they’re afraid, or they only need guns because they’re penis substitutes or something else that’s similarly ridiculous)”

To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:I think I tried to explain that in my post. I never mentioned empowerment, that is your wording.

If you mean the bellow, I can't see how you did really. And I know you didin't use that word, hence the ' instead of ". But it is a word used in this argument a lot.

Grignard wrote:If you want to know why I feel the way I do, it probably has to do with the fact that I enjoy shooting as a hobby. Firearms are one of the few things in our disposable society that are still designed to last indefinitely when properly cared for. There are plenty of firearms made in the 19th century that are perfectly safe to fire with modern ammunition, and others that can be safely fired using black powder cartridges ( there is a niche market for this by the way). I find autoloading firearms to be fascinating machines. Unlike many shooters, I truly enjoy breaking down my guns and cleaning them. I have an interest in mechanical devices like this in general. I like perfection, and striving to get ever more precise with my shooting.

I thought I was telling people why it is fun. I said I enjoyed possessing something that is a durable, valuable, tool, rather than another thing that is produced, wasted, and thrown away. I find the act of trying to get the most accuracy possible to be pleasing. I'm also a hunter, well, a pretty half assed hunter, but I've been successful once or twice. I'm not trying to generalize my experiences to any one else, I'm just explaining to you what I feel is "fun".

Grignard wrote:I think that is symbolic Sebster, it is a matter of trust, not paranoia.

Do you find it strange that the same people who will argue for guns as a means to keep government in control will discredit and write off civil rights activists like the ACLU at every possible opportunity?

I thought I was telling people why it is fun. I said I enjoyed possessing something that is a durable, valuable, tool, rather than another thing that is produced, wasted, and thrown away. I find the act of trying to get the most accuracy possible to be pleasing. I'm also a hunter, well, a pretty half assed hunter, but I've been successful once or twice. I'm not trying to generalize my experiences to any one else, I'm just explaining to you what I feel is "fun".

A screwdriver is a "durable, valuable tool" what makes you like guns more than screwdrivers?

whatwhat wrote:To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

Not really. Do you feel the same about competition archery? It is, after all, the use of a weapon where the only purpose is dealing death.

sebster wrote:

Grignard wrote:I think that is symbolic Sebster, it is a matter of trust, not paranoia.

Do you find it strange that the same people who will argue for guns as a means to keep government in control will discredit and write off civil rights activists like the ACLU at every possible opportunity?

You know, I agree with you here Sebster. It is frustrating for me. I'm not trying to open a separate argument here, I'm trying to draw an analogy, so bear with it. I personally find abortion distasteful, but I find myself leaning toward pro-choice. My reasoning is that I'm sure there are women out there who feel just as passionately about keeping the government from interfering with her reproductive health as I do about my possession of weapons.

A brain is for thinking.

sebster wrote:

whatwhat wrote:To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

Not really. Do you feel the same about competition archery? It is, after all, the use of a weapon who's only purpose is dealing death.

I'm referring more to some people's apparant 'love of guns' rather than their use in competition, that may have not been clear in my earlier comments i do admit. There are some, many in America, who don't have any intention of using their gun for sport or hunting and own one simply for the empowerment they feel by owning it. The same thing can be applied to shooting ranges, when I was in america last I saw adverts offering an hour in a range with an assault rifle, wtf is the point of that if it's not for people who have a strange admiration for guns?