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whatwhat wrote:To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

And I used the Matrix as a reference for guns being fun and it made you act like a gakker, so you shouldn't be surprised when you less obvious and more poorly convinced humor gets a similar negative reaction.

whatwhat wrote:

I thought I was telling people why it is fun. I said I enjoyed possessing something that is a durable, valuable, tool, rather than another thing that is produced, wasted, and thrown away. I find the act of trying to get the most accuracy possible to be pleasing. I'm also a hunter, well, a pretty half assed hunter, but I've been successful once or twice. I'm not trying to generalize my experiences to any one else, I'm just explaining to you what I feel is "fun".

A screwdriver is a "durable, valuable tool" what makes you like guns more than screwdrivers?

I like screwdrivers too. What is your point? I didn't choose to be fascinated with miniatures...I got exposed to miniature landscapes and figures when I was three years old and it sort of stuck with me. I don't know where the firearms thing came from, I've always been into it, even before I could legally purchase a firearm. When I was young, very young, I drew a series of exploded diagrams of hypothetical firearms. Of course, my designs wouldn't actually work, but the point is it is something I find interesting. You're saying you don't like the idea that I get pleasure from using weapons. You apparently just don't like weapons, and that is ok. We're arguing about separate things.

whatwhat wrote:

sebster wrote:

whatwhat wrote:To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

Not really. Do you feel the same about competition archery? It is, after all, the use of a weapon who's only purpose is dealing death.

I'm referring more to some people's apparant 'love of guns' rather than their use in competition, that may have not been clear in my earlier comments i do admit. There are some, many in America, who don't have any intention of using their gun for sport or hunting and own one simply for the empowerment they feel by owning it. The same thing can be applied to shooting ranges, when I was in america last I saw adverts offering an hour in a range with an assault rifle, wtf is the point of that if it's not for people who have a strange admiration for guns?

So you are the moral judge now of what is excessive love of guns that will INEVITABLY lead to violence and what is competition. I was going to ask you how you feel about your Olympic shooters, but that will get me no where I see. You're just like someone criticizing who I should or should not have sex with on religious grounds, which I don't share.

whatwhat wrote:
To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

You do realize that the natural consequence of your argument is that all attempts at possession are manifestations of low self esteem? And that, as a result, anyone who is not satisfied with their present existence must be intrinsically unable to appreciate their current worth.

I think whatwhat is missing a very, very valuable point.

Criminals will always have guns. Murderers will always have guns. So why in the hell would you opt to cripple yourself by allowing laws to be passed that take away your right to defend yourself, just because you think that guns themselves cause violence?

Guns don't cause violence. People's minds and their ideals cause violence. Guns just change the nature of the beast.

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

And I used the Matrix as a reference for guns being fun and it made you act like a gakker, so you shouldn't be surprised when you less obvious and more poorly convinced humor gets a similar negative reaction.

lol wasn't surprised at all, why do you think I posted it?

Grignard wrote:I like screwdrivers too. What is your point? I didn't choose to be fascinated with miniatures...I got exposed to miniature landscapes and figures when I was three years old and it sort of stuck with me. I don't know where the firearms thing came from, I've always been into it, even before I could legally purchase a firearm. When I was young, very young, I drew a series of exploded diagrams of hypothetical firearms. Of course, my designs wouldn't actually work, but the point is it is something I find interesting. You're saying you don't like the idea that I get pleasure from using weapons. You apparently just don't like weapons, and that is ok. We're arguing about separate things.

It's not about me not likeing weapons. It's about what a persons admiration and fun in using firearms seems to suggest. Maybe your right, maybe it's a cultural thing, in which case, that is the root of your problems and ironing that out needs to go hand in hand with getting rid of the guns.

Grignard wrote:So you are the moral judge now of what is excessive love of guns that will INEVITABLY lead to violence and what is competition. I was going to ask you how you feel about your Olympic shooters, but that will get me no where I see. You're just like someone criticizing who I should or should not have sex with on religious grounds, which I don't share.

How does that work?

Chrysaor686 wrote:I think whatwhat is missing a very, very valuable point.

Criminals will always have guns. Murderers will always have guns. So why in the hell would you opt to cripple yourself by allowing laws to be passed that take away your right to defend yourself, just because you think that guns themselves cause violence?

Guns don't cause violence. People's minds and their ideals cause violence. Guns just change the nature of the beast.

whatwhat wrote: maybe it's a cultural thing, in which case, that is the root of your problems and ironing that out needs to go hand in hand with getting rid of the guns.

dogma wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

You do realize that the natural consequence of your argument is that all attempts at possession are manifestations of low self esteem? And that, as a result, anyone who is not satisfied with their present existence must be intrinsically unable to appreciate their current worth.

whether it is or is not about a low self esteem, no one seems to be disagreeing that many americans have a love and admiration for firearms. That is what needs to be removed from your country in order to solve your problem, not guns themselves (although that would be a logical afterthought). That, ultimately, is my point.

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:I like screwdrivers too. What is your point? I didn't choose to be fascinated with miniatures...I got exposed to miniature landscapes and figures when I was three years old and it sort of stuck with me. I don't know where the firearms thing came from, I've always been into it, even before I could legally purchase a firearm. When I was young, very young, I drew a series of exploded diagrams of hypothetical firearms. Of course, my designs wouldn't actually work, but the point is it is something I find interesting. You're saying you don't like the idea that I get pleasure from using weapons. You apparently just don't like weapons, and that is ok. We're arguing about separate things.

It's not about me not likeing weapons. It's about what a persons admiration and fun in using firearms seems to suggest. Maybe your right, maybe it's a cultural thing, in which case, that is the root of your problems and ironing that out needs to go hand in hand with getting rid of the guns.

What are you trying to get across here. For once, I'm not trying to be a jerk, as is my nature, I'm trying to explain why people aren't taking you seriously. You're making sweeping generalizations. What problems are you speaking of and why are you making the jump to assuming the cause of ALL of whatever problems exist is the fact that some people enjoy shooting.

Grignard wrote:You know, I agree with you here Sebster. It is frustrating for me. I'm not trying to open a separate argument here, I'm trying to draw an analogy, so bear with it. I personally find abortion distasteful, but I find myself leaning toward pro-choice. My reasoning is that I'm sure there are women out there who feel just as passionately about keeping the government from interfering with her reproductive health as I do about my possession of weapons.

Fair enough. To open the idea out a little, it isn't just about single issues such as abortion or gun control, but about keeping govt accountable across the board. That can't be done by stockpiling guns, but it can be done by maintaining strict reporting requirements, requiring proper process is followed, all kinds of unsexy stuff like that.

whatwhat wrote:I'm referring more to some people's apparant 'love of guns' rather than their use in competition, that may have not been clear in my earlier comments i do admit. There are some, many in America, who don't have any intention of using their gun for sport or hunting and own one simply for the empowerment they feel by owning it. The same thing can be applied to shooting ranges, when I was in america last I saw adverts offering an hour in a range with an assault rifle, wtf is the point of that if it's not for people who have a strange admiration for guns?

Because it'd be great fun. In Russia if you pay enough you can sit in an old armoured vehicle and let rip with a 30mm autocannon. It's something I really want to do.

And I agree that there is a fetishisation of guns, to the point where people believe guns really are saving lives everyday and are needed to keep government in check. But extending that fetishisation to almost all gun owners as you have isn't accurate or helpful.

sebster wrote:Because it'd be great fun. In Russia if you pay enough you can sit in an old armoured vehicle and let rip with a 30mm autocannon. It's something I really want to do.

And I agree that there is a fetishisation of guns, to the point where people believe guns really are saving lives everyday and are needed to keep government in check. But extending that fetishisation to almost all gun owners as you have isn't accurate or helpful.

I didn't extend it to all gun owners. But I would say it is a significantly greater number in america than other countries.

whatwhat wrote:

sebster wrote:Because it'd be great fun. In Russia if you pay enough you can sit in an old armoured vehicle and let rip with a 30mm autocannon. It's something I really want to do.

And I agree that there is a fetishisation of guns, to the point where people believe guns really are saving lives everyday and are needed to keep government in check. But extending that fetishisation to almost all gun owners as you have isn't accurate or helpful.

I didn't extend it to all gun owners. But I would say it is a significantly greater number in america than other countries.

On what basis would you say that? And if so, you still haven't really said anything yet.

Do you really think you can 'iron out' criminality and violence by changing culture?

Do you really think that the most violent of human beings are actually affected more by culture than by their own intrinsic mind?

And do you honestly think you can 'get rid' of guns? If you answer yes to that last one, that's just ignorant. There are far too many guns in the wrong hands to be able to 'get rid' of even half of them. and as Grignard has mentioned, guns last for a very, very long time.

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

sebster wrote:Because it'd be great fun. In Russia if you pay enough you can sit in an old armoured vehicle and let rip with a 30mm autocannon. It's something I really want to do.

And I agree that there is a fetishisation of guns, to the point where people believe guns really are saving lives everyday and are needed to keep government in check. But extending that fetishisation to almost all gun owners as you have isn't accurate or helpful.

I didn't extend it to all gun owners. But I would say it is a significantly greater number in america than other countries.

On what basis would you say that? And if so, you still haven't really said anything yet.

On the basis that I don't see many people in my country wanting to join a gun club, own a gun, go to a shooting range etc. etc. Whereas I do in yours.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Do you really think you can 'iron out' criminality and violence by changing culture?

absolutely i do. (not completely, a perfect world is impossible.)

Do you really think that the most violent of human beings are actually affected more by culture than by their own intrinsic mind?

yup, no one is born evil.

And do you honestly think you can 'get rid' of guns? If you answer yes to that last one, that's just ignorant. There are far too many guns in the wrong hands to be able to 'get rid' of even half of them. and as Grignard has mentioned, guns last for a very, very long time.

No. Of course not. Did i say that once?

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

sebster wrote:Because it'd be great fun. In Russia if you pay enough you can sit in an old armoured vehicle and let rip with a 30mm autocannon. It's something I really want to do.

And I agree that there is a fetishisation of guns, to the point where people believe guns really are saving lives everyday and are needed to keep government in check. But extending that fetishisation to almost all gun owners as you have isn't accurate or helpful.

I didn't extend it to all gun owners. But I would say it is a significantly greater number in america than other countries.

On what basis would you say that? And if so, you still haven't really said anything yet.

On the basis that I don't see many people in my country wanting to join a gun club, own a gun, go to a shooting range etc. etc. Whereas I do in yours.

You might very well be right. Doesn't matter, that is completely anecdotal and doesn't necessarily mean anything at all even if true.

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:Do you really think you can 'iron out' criminality and violence by changing culture?

absolutely i do. (not completely, a perfect world is impossible.)

Do you really think that the most violent of human beings are actually affected more by culture than by their own intrinsic mind?

yup, no one is born evil.

And do you honestly think you can 'get rid' of guns? If you answer yes to that last one, that's just ignorant. There are far too many guns in the wrong hands to be able to 'get rid' of even half of them. and as Grignard has mentioned, guns last for a very, very long time.

No. Of course not. Did i say that once?

You share that opinion with a lot of people, and I hypothesize that comes from the Judeo-Christian concept of redemption. That is just a theory of mine, nothing more. In other words, you're making a nature versus nurture argument. I happen to disagree with you. I think that things are the way they are, and you don't really have any control over it. Like I said, I didn't chose to be interested in what I am interested in, it just happened. You can do all you can, but the fact is you're going to have a certain body type, and a certain brain, etc. Now there is evidence to support either side of that argument, but the bald statement that no one is born evil is opinion, not fact. Furthermore you'd have to define evil.

I seriously suggest you read up on Criminal Psychology.

I have no interest in living in a society which dictates what I have the right to hold interest in. If anything, placing a taboo on something sparks more interest in the subject anyway.

I don't see you ranting against people with obsessions with other 'instruments of violence', even if it isn't as big of a 'problem'.

Chrysaor686 wrote:I think whatwhat is missing a very, very valuable point.

Criminals will always have guns. Murderers will always have guns. So why in the hell would you opt to cripple yourself by allowing laws to be passed that take away your right to defend yourself, just because you think that guns themselves cause violence?

Guns don't cause violence. People's minds and their ideals cause violence. Guns just change the nature of the beast.

I think whatwhat is missing a few very valuable points, but in this case you're missing a few as well.

The majority of guns used in crime, particularly handguns, were originally legally purchased. It is far simpler for criminals to get their hands on guns if they're freely available to the general population.

Grignard wrote:You might very well be right. Doesn't matter, that is completely anecdotal and doesn't necessarily mean anything at all even if true.

Well it does mean something if it's true, of course it does. But yeh it's not hard evidence I admit.

Grignard wrote:You share that opinion with a lot of people, and I hypothesize that comes from the Judeo-Christian concept of redemption. That is just a theory of mine, nothing more. In other words, you're making a nature versus nurture argument. I happen to disagree with you. I think that things are the way they are, and you don't really have any control over it. Like I said, I didn't chose to be interested in what I am interested in, it just happened. You can do all you can, but the fact is you're going to have a certain body type, and a certain brain, etc. Now there is evidence to support either side of that argument, but the bald statement that no one is born evil is opinion, not fact. Furthermore you'd have to define evil.

Well how then do you explain why some cultures have less or more problems than others? Or did your god decide africa was going to be full of genocidal war mongerors before they were even born?

Chrysaor686 wrote:I have no interest in living in a society which dictates what I have the right to hold interest in. .

Really? I suggest suicide. + there are more suttle ways to change culture without dictating a society does not have a right to hold an interest in something. Why do you think the vietnemese eat dogs and the english find that disgusting for example, its not because we were told not to find dogs tasty.

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:You might very well be right. Doesn't matter, that is completely anecdotal and doesn't necessarily mean anything at all even if true.

Well it does mean something if it's true, of course it does. But yeh it's not hard evidence I admit.

Grignard wrote:You share that opinion with a lot of people, and I hypothesize that comes from the Judeo-Christian concept of redemption. That is just a theory of mine, nothing more. In other words, you're making a nature versus nurture argument. I happen to disagree with you. I think that things are the way they are, and you don't really have any control over it. Like I said, I didn't chose to be interested in what I am interested in, it just happened. You can do all you can, but the fact is you're going to have a certain body type, and a certain brain, etc. Now there is evidence to support either side of that argument, but the bald statement that no one is born evil is opinion, not fact. Furthermore you'd have to define evil.

Well how then do you explain why some cultures have less or more problems than others? Or did your god decide africa was going to be full of genocidal war mongerors before they were even born?

What? Whose God? What does Africa have to do with anything? How are you defining problems? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Furthermore I resent you suggesting my determinism has a religious basis. In fact, I believe it is my nihilism in a large part that makes me feel that way, and no, I don't believe that is good. But my personal issues have nothing to do with what you're saying making no sense at all.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Do you really think you can 'iron out' criminality and violence by changing culture?

Do you really think that the most violent of human beings are actually affected more by culture than by their own intrinsic mind?

If culture isn't a primary factor why does the murder rate vary so much between countries? Are Americans inherently four times as murderous as Australians?

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:I have no interest in living in a society which dictates what I have the right to hold interest in. .

Really? I suggest suicide.

I don't even know what to say here. I'm not normally one to yell "trolling" but if that isn't it, I dont know what is.

sebster wrote:The majority of guns used in crime, particularly handguns, were originally legally purchased. It is far simpler for criminals to get their hands on guns if they're freely available to the general population.

I understand that perfectly well. But now that criminals DO have legally purchased guns, leaving the common citizen without the right to legally purchase and carry a weapon isn't going to help them out very much, is it?

People will always have access to illegal weapons, but leaving the person who doesn't care to violate the law out of the equation is going to do a lot more harm than good.

whatwhat wrote:
whether it is or is not about a low self esteem, no one seems to be disagreeing that many americans have a love and admiration for firearms. That is what needs to be removed from your country in order to solve your problem, not guns themselves (although that would be a logical afterthought). That, ultimately, is my point.

But you've made no convincing argument that a love of firearms translates to increased gun crime, so you've not actually made a point at all.

sebster wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:Do you really think you can 'iron out' criminality and violence by changing culture?

Do you really think that the most violent of human beings are actually affected more by culture than by their own intrinsic mind?

If culture isn't a primary factor why does the murder rate vary so much between countries? Are Americans inherently four times as murderous as Australians?

I think culture is a factor, I just believe that nature is the largest determinant. Perhaps you're talking about tendencies that are present in all populations but express themselves differently due to different pressures or living conditions. I don't know, it is a belief of mine, not something I have evidence for.

Grignard wrote:

What? Whose God? What does Africa have to do with anything? How are you defining problems? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Furthermore I resent you suggesting my determinism has a religious basis. In fact, I believe it is my nihilism in a large part that makes me feel that way, and no, I don't believe that is good. But my personal issues have nothing to do with what you're saying making no sense at all.

Whether you resent it or not it stil makes sense. You said basicly that were all born that way, so I asked you why then there are mor problems in some places (for eaxmple, africa) than others if that is the case. Are more people born evil there than in your country?

dogma wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
whether it is or is not about a low self esteem, no one seems to be disagreeing that many americans have a love and admiration for firearms. That is what needs to be removed from your country in order to solve your problem, not guns themselves (although that would be a logical afterthought). That, ultimately, is my point.

But you've made no convincing argument that a love of firearms translates to increased gun crime, so you've not actually made a point at all.

Fair one. But I could. For example it is legal to hold fireamrs in other countries where guncrime isn't half the problem it is in the US.

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:I have no interest in living in a society which dictates what I have the right to hold interest in. .

Really? I suggest suicide.

I don't even know what to say here. I'm not normally one to yell "trolling" but if that isn't it, I dont know what is.

FYI, it's sarcasm.

Chrysaor686 wrote:
People will always have access to illegal weapons, but leaving the person who doesn't care to violate the law out of the equation is going to do a lot more harm than good.

That's highly debatable. There is a fine line between crime, and justice. And the vigilante does not normally fall on the side of the latter.

Chrysaor686 wrote:I understand that perfectly well. But now that criminals DO have legally purchased guns, leaving the common citizen without the right to legally purchase and carry a weapon isn't going to help them out very much, is it?

People will always have access to illegal weapons, but leaving the person who doesn't care to violate the law out of the equation is going to do a lot more harm than good.

Then how do you explain the order or magnitude difference between the use of firearms in criminal activity in Australia compared to the US. While it is impossible to stop any criminal getting a gun, doesn't an increased number of guns in general make it easier for criminals to access them?

I'm not even arguing for more gun control (the US has plenty, the primary difference between it and other countries is in enforcement of those laws and culture). But I am arguing against this idea that there's too many guns out there, all the bad guys can get them so the only answer is to arm up and sleep with a shotgun under the bed.

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:Well how then do you explain why some cultures have less or more problems than others? Or did your god decide africa was going to be full of genocidal war mongerors before they were even born?

What? Whose God? What does Africa have to do with anything? How are you defining problems? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Furthermore I resent you suggesting my determinism has a religious basis. In fact, I believe it is my nihilism in a large part that makes me feel that way, and no, I don't believe that is good. But my personal issues have nothing to do with what you're saying making no sense at all.

whatwhat wrote:
Whether you resent it or not it stil makes sense. You said basicly that were all born that way, so I asked you why then there are mor problems in some places (for eaxmple, africa) than others if that is the case. Are more people born evil there than in your country?

I was speaking of individuals, not nations or continents. Again, I mentioned several times that my belief is exactly that, a belief. Furthermore, you're trying to steer the argument in a direction that has nothing to do with your original point.

whatwhat wrote:
Fair one. But I could. For example it is legal to hold fireamrs in other countries where guncrime isn't half the problem it is in the US.

Which also requires that you posit that there is no similar gun culture in those other nations. That would be a difficult task on the best of days.

dogma wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:
People will always have access to illegal weapons, but leaving the person who doesn't care to violate the law out of the equation is going to do a lot more harm than good.

That's highly debatable. There is a fine line between crime, and justice. And the vigilante does not normally fall on the side of the latter.

I don't share your belief on the rule of law there Dogma. Come to think about it, this goes back to a culture issue.