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Grignard wrote:I think culture is a factor, I just believe that nature is the largest determinant. Perhaps you're talking about tendencies that are present in all populations but express themselves differently due to different pressures or living conditions. I don't know, it is a belief of mine, not something I have evidence for.

And I tend to assume the opposite, and look to environment first. Exactly where one factor or the other is strongest is a whole other argument, but even if nature is the larger determinant, its hard to argue that you can't improve things like violent crime by changing the situations that tend to create violent criminals.

And that that is almost certainly going to be a lot more effective strategy than than everyone buying guns.

I never said that culture doesn't help to create violence, I only said that changing culture will not get rid of violence, because it's an intrinsic nature present in human beings in general.

The most violent of all human beings will always find ways to express that violence, be it with or without guns. And I feel more comfortable with them.

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:I have no interest in living in a society which dictates what I have the right to hold interest in. .

Really? I suggest suicide.

I'm not sure telling another board member to kill themselves is very thoughtful.

whatwhat wrote:I believe it is my nihilism

Are you sure that means what you think it does? I ask becuase everything else you have said is not a nihilistic perspective.

Finally:

Grignard wrote:Whether you resent it or not it stil makes sense. You said basicly that were all born that way, so I asked you why then there are mor problems in some places (for eaxmple, africa) than others if that is the case. Are more people born evil there than in your country?

I was speaking of individuals, not nations or continents. Again, I mentioned several times that my belief is exactly that, a belief. Furthermore, you're trying to steer the argument in a direction that has nothing to do with your original point.

Chrysaor686 wrote:I never said that culture doesn't help to create violence, I only said that changing culture will not get rid of violence, because it's an intrinsic nature present in human beings in general.

The most violent of all human beings will always find ways to express that violence, be it with or without guns. And I feel more comfortable with them.

You know, that is something I've thought a lot about. It is tricky to find actual evidence to support or refute that view. For instance, I read that some anthropologists found a Neanderthal skeleton with evidence of damage to the bones from a spearpoint. Now, the immediate assumption is to think of violence. However, as anyone who hunts knows, accidents are always a risk when you're using weapons to kill something, whether an animal or another human being. It could very well be evidence of a prehistoric hunting accident, not prehistoric violence. I find it interesting though that chimpanzees have been observed to form organized groups for the apparent purpose of killing other chimpanzees. Of course, chimps are bright enough to have culture, which complicates things.

whatwhat wrote:If that's my fault I apologise.

Yes, it is. Apology is unnecessary.

dogma wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
Fair one. But I could. For example it is legal to hold fireamrs in other countries where guncrime isn't half the problem it is in the US.

Which also requires that you posit that there is no similar gun culture in those other nations. That would be a difficult task on the best of days.

Again good point, but I have heard references in the past which I can dig up. I know that means s**** all to you, granted, but never the less, tis.

Grignard wrote:I was speaking of individuals, not nations or continents. Again, I mentioned several times that my belief is exactly that, a belief. Furthermore, you're trying to steer the argument in a direction that has nothing to do with your original point.

A nation is made up of individuals is it not? And no I am not, my point was you have an element of gun love culture in your country which, I believe to be fueled by a lack of self esteem in some people. MY point is that by changing this culture you can change your problems with gun crime. Dogma actually correctly stated I haven't given any examples of why the gun love culture leads to gun crime, I gave the example of other countries, such as canada, where firearms are illegal and gun crime is not so much a problem. Whther I'm right or not Dogma has at least grasped what I'm on about, I feel like im having to explain myself to you time and time again, If that's my fault I apologise.

dogma wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
Fair one. But I could. For example it is legal to hold fireamrs in other countries where guncrime isn't half the problem it is in the US.

Which also requires that you posit that there is no similar gun culture in those other nations. That would be a difficult task on the best of days.

Again good point, but I have heard references in the past which I can dig up. I know that means s**** all to you, granted, but never the less, tis.

Chrysaor686 wrote:I never said that culture doesn't help to create violence, I only said that changing culture will not get rid of violence, because it's an intrinsic nature present in human beings in general.

The most violent of all human beings will always find ways to express that violence, be it with or without guns. And I feel more comfortable with them.

Then I simply and bluntly, disagree.

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I believe it is my nihilism

Are you sure that means what you think it does? I ask becuase everything else you have said is not a nihilistic perspective.

Probs cause you misquoted me with grignards words ey.

whatwhat wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I believe it is my nihilism

Are you sure that means what you think it does? I ask becuase everything else you have said is not a nihilistic perspective.

Probs cause you misquoted me ey.

No, those are the exact words you used.

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I believe it is my nihilism

Are you sure that means what you think it does? I ask becuase everything else you have said is not a nihilistic perspective.

Probs cause you misquoted me ey.

No, those are the exact words you used.

Nope , again those are grignards words...

Grignard wrote:Furthermore I resent you suggesting my determinism has a religious basis. In fact, I believe it is my nihilism in a large part that makes me feel that way, and no, I don't believe that is good. But my personal issues have nothing to do with what you're saying making no sense at all.

Grignard wrote:[Thats just passive aggressive. I'm really getting tired of playing the trolling game with you. My patience with this has worn thin, and it was never much there to begin with.

Ok then dismiss my arguments on the basis of "trolling." Get real.

Again, I suggest taking up criminal psychology, at least to give weight to the theory that violence is a natural part of being human.

The fact that violence is used (by some) in relieving sexual tension proves that violence is natural well enough for me, at least as much as your libido is natural.

whatwhat wrote:I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc. I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

I'm getting real. I decided that you didn't have anything worthwhile to contribute at this point.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Again, I suggest taking up criminal psychology, at least to give weight to the theory that violence is a natural part of being human.

The fact that violence is used (by some) in relieving sexual tension proves that violence is natural well enough for me, at least as much as your libido is natural.

Whether it is or it isn't. Theres still enough evidence to say a large part of violence in society is influenced through peoples circumstances and therefore culture. So it's logical to suggest changeing culture changes attitudes towards gun crime is it not?

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc. I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

I'm getting real. I decided that you didn't have anything worthwhile to contribute at this point.

I've decided that you've just taken a personal dislike to me and are simply dismissing any point I give as nonsensical. but don't worry, I wont be responding you any longer.

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:Again, I suggest taking up criminal psychology, at least to give weight to the theory that violence is a natural part of being human.

The fact that violence is used (by some) in relieving sexual tension proves that violence is natural well enough for me, at least as much as your libido is natural.

Whether it is or it isn't. Theres still enough evidence to say a large part of violence in society is influenced through peoples circumstances and therefore culture. So it's logical to suggest changeing culture changes attitudes towards gun crime is it not?

Grignard wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I've often wondered why America still has guns, even why you seem to have some americans who have a love of guns, shooting, gun club memberships etc. I concluded that rather than having them for self defense many Americans suffer from sps.

I'm getting real. I decided that you didn't have anything worthwhile to contribute at this point.

I've decided that you've just taken a personal dislike to me and are simply dismissing any point I give as nonsensical. but don't worry, I wont be responding you any longer.

You open up with something that many people would find insulting, then simply decide not to respond when people make an honest effort to figure out what you're saying and open dialog with you?

Grignard wrote:You open up with something that many people would find insulting, then simply decide not to respond when people make an honest effort to figure out what you're saying and open dialog with you?

Actually Iv'e responded to you and tried to reiterate my point plenty of times, mainly to you, as other people seem to get where I am coming from. I admit at times I may have been a bit uncouth and sarcastic but that's just the way I am, you can't use that to discredit me.

Again I'm not going to respond to you any longer as blaring trigger happy unnecessary shouts of "trolling" only gets threads locked, so I'm going to stop you from doing it by simply ending my participation. I think I have enough belief in my own arguments that I don't have to get the last word in, so feel free...

whatwhat wrote:Whether it is or it isn't. Theres still enough evidence to say a large part of violence in society is influenced through peoples circumstances and therefore culture. So it's logical to suggest changeing culture changes attitudes towards gun crime is it not?

Again, I never said that changing culture wouldn't change the amount of violence that takes place, I just said that you cannot "fix" something that takes place naturally, no matter how eutopian the society.

whatwhat wrote:

Grignard wrote:You open up with something that many people would find insulting, then simply decide not to respond when people make an honest effort to figure out what you're saying and open dialog with you?

Actually Iv'e responded to you and tried to reiterate my point plenty of times, mainly to you, as other people seem to get where I am coming from. I admit at times I may have been a bit uncouth and sarcastic but that's just the way I am, you can't use that to discredit me.

Again I'm not going to respond to you any longer as blaring trigger happy unnecessary shouts of "trolling" only gets threads locked, so I'm going to stop you from doing it by simply ending my participation. I think I have enough belief in my own arguments that I don't have to get the last word in, so feel free...

Alright, thanks I will.

Velsharoon wrote:So everyone who drives a car has a small penis. Or uses forks.

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:To be fair, yes, my argument was deliberately humorous and OTT. Just swap my earlier SPS drop with 'a low self esteem' and maybe you might be able to take it more seriously.

And I used the Matrix as a reference for guns being fun and it made you act like a gakker, so you shouldn't be surprised when you less obvious and more poorly convinced humor gets a similar negative reaction.

sebster wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I'm referring more to some people's apparant 'love of guns' rather than their use in competition, that may have not been clear in my earlier comments i do admit. There are some, many in America, who don't have any intention of using their gun for sport or hunting and own one simply for the empowerment they feel by owning it. The same thing can be applied to shooting ranges, when I was in america last I saw adverts offering an hour in a range with an assault rifle, wtf is the point of that if it's not for people who have a strange admiration for guns?

Because it'd be great fun. In Russia if you pay enough you can sit in an old armoured vehicle and let rip with a 30mm autocannon. It's something I really want to do.

And I agree that there is a fetishisation of guns, to the point where people believe guns really are saving lives everyday and are needed to keep government in check. But extending that fetishisation to almost all gun owners as you have isn't accurate or helpful.

Ahtman wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:I have no interest in living in a society which dictates what I have the right to hold interest in. .

Really? I suggest suicide.

I'm not sure telling another board member to kill themselves is very thoughtful.

whatwhat wrote:I believe it is my nihilism

Are you sure that means what you think it does? I ask becuase everything else you have said is not a nihilistic perspective.

Apparently I'm not the only person who has taken exception to your comments, or has even had trouble understanding what you're saying at any given time. So I'm left wondering whether it is a case of douchebaggery or mis-communication.

Boy, this thread went places in 4 hours didn't it?

@whatwhat- Your presumption of an ignorant low self-esteem gun love comes accross as intellectual elitism.

Did you ever consider the American love affair with the gun stems from the roots of the creation of this Nation. The Minute Man Militia. Citizen Army fights off proffessional mercenaries and wins their freedom from oppressive uncaring overlords. Guns are a part of the american culture just as dissing the French is to the English. The right to own guns is a physical tie to the history of this nation.

As you respond can you answer a question? Does the government work for the people or do the people work for the government?


@ Sebster- How sure are you on the gun violence ratios?
You read these extreme numerical differences but the gap closes considerably when you start checking international homicide totals vs gun crimes. It seems that americans use guns to kill whereas other countries get a little more creative or Medieval if you prefer.

And this still doesn't take into account the difference in investigation techniques and missing person resolution rates. It's too easy for one side or the other to massage the statistical results just by propagandizing the question.

focusedfire wrote:@ Sebster- How sure are you on the gun violence ratios?
You read these extreme numerical differences but the gap closes considerably when you start checking international homicide totals vs gun crimes. It seems that americans use guns to kill whereas other countries get a little more creative or Medieval if you prefer.

I didn't cite a figure for gun violence. I just made a reference to the US being much higher than comparative nations, and left it at that as it's hardly a contentious point.

I did make a reference to overall murder rates, drawn from this link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate

Yes, it's wiki but wiki is pretty solid when it comes to lists of publically available data. Can look it up elsewhere if you really insist, its not in dispute.

Anyhoo, its got Australia at a rate of 1.28, the UK at 2.03, France at 1.64, Japan at 1.1, and the US at 5.7. Basically the US is a lot more murderous than any other developed country.

If you limit it to purely firearms murder it gets even more extreme - but like you rightly point out that's largely the result of the US using guns where a person in a country with less guns might use something else to do it. What matters is the underlying figure, murders per capita, listed above.

And this still doesn't take into account the difference in investigation techniques and missing person resolution rates. It's too easy for one side or the other to massage the statistical results just by propagandizing the question.

There is no way procedural methods can account for the scale of that discrepancy.

I know this can be a touchy subject but it should be possible to make conversation without insulting each other.

There is some okay discussion occurring so I'm going to leave the thread open for now to see if people can recover their civility and continue with the actual discourse instead of the insults.

So please, stay on topic and cease the insults.

What I'd guess, and it is a guess, is that America's high murder rate stems from the fact it has far larger problems with urban poverty than any of the other countries mentioned, and has less welfare and healthcare available to the poor. Just my tuppence.

Your claim to the 4 time difference got me to checking. When I searched based on gun crimes the nubers were as you stated if albiet a little dated. When I changed the search criteria to International murder rates the number dropped to 2.5:1. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita. That is a significant drop with just one change in the search criteria.

My argument isn't that there is no crime. Its that there has been no fully scientific study that embraces all of the variables. I feel that, until that occurs, using ratios and stats is not a valid point for use in the debate.



Edited for sentence structure

Greebynog actually brings up a very good point, especially since Africa has been cited as one of the more "homocidal locations", and Africa has extreme problems with poverty.

The more I think about it, the more it seems to coincide.

The high murder rate is due to tourists coming to America and complaining about all the guns.

RLMAO, Deadshane thats priceless.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Greebynog actually brings up a very good point, especially since Africa has been cited as one of the more "homocidal locations", and Africa has extreme problems with poverty.

The more I think about it, the more it seems to coincide.

Absolutely, economic levels don't just match up from nation to nation, but also within nations. Poorer areas will have much higher murder rates than wealthier areas. There's other factors as well, drugs and general crime, police efficiency and the likelihood of catching the criminal (but interestingly enough not the harshness of the penalty) and economic opportunities (different to income levels... the chance of getting a job vs how much you get paid for it).

And well, I do like to say I told you so but this was my point back on the first page of the thread. So much time spent arguing about guns, and so little time spent discussing the things that really impact violent crime.

focusedfire wrote:Your claim to the 4 time difference got me to checking. When I searched based on gun crimes the nubers were as you stated if albiet a little dated. When I changed the search criteria to International murder rates the number dropped to 2.5:1. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita. That is a significant drop with just one change in the search criteria.

I was comparing the US and Australia, and according to that study the difference is 2.8. That's still a massive difference.

My argument isn't that there is no crime. Its that there has been no fully scientific study that embraces all of the variables. I feel that, until that occurs, using ratios and stats is not a valid point for use in the debate.

That's absolutely ridiculous. No set of stats will ever be absolutely complete, and account for every variable in an indisputable manner. It is an impossible standard to meet. But stats can still be used as an indicative tool, to be discussed and considered as part of an overall argument.

I was upset when I first looked into this thread. I initially thought it was going to be 3 pages of people discussing the best stances (weaver, isoseles), fastest ways to reload (two ships pass in the night), proper way to pull the trigger (smooth flat back press), ect....

Gun Control (gun, kun-trol)noun-The act of maintaining control of your weapon while shooting people that dont think you should have it.

And yet you casually dismiss a drop of 4.5:1 to 2.8:1 Thats about a 40ish percent drop just changing one paradigm.

I have a feeling that while we agree to some point(You actually have engaged in the sporting use of firearms and it didn't turn you into a murderer), we will differ on this drastically in other areas because of completely differing life philosophies.

The kicker that gets to me is that pro-gun individuals aren't trying to require everyone to own a gun, whereas the anti-gun groups aren't as considerate

If we are going to pretend that correlative evidence proves anything then there are two factors outside gun laws to blame:

As discussed before, one is poverty levels. More violence in poor/uneducated areas, like Africa, parts of the Middle East, Compton...

The other is racial/religious homogeneity. Where folks have obvious differences in these areas, they generally find reasons to kill each other...